A new idea for elves

[akiyama]

Well, I bought the "white box" pdfs a couple of weeks ago, and now I'm thinking I'd like to run an OD&D-ish campaign. I say OD&Dish because although there's lots of things I like about the rules, there's a few things I think could be improved upon.

Anyway, one of things I'm intending to change from the original rules is elves. I was thinking of having elves be a Basic/Expert type fighter/magic-user, but with the number of spells per day taken from OD&D clerics rather than OD&D magic-users (so, elves would get no spell at level 0). However, I'm thinking of giving elves their own spell lists, using a mixture of Druid and Illusionist spells from AD&D (so examples of first-level spells might be change self or speak with animals). This would make "elf-magic" a little less powerful than MU magic, but also distinctive and, to my mind, more "elfish".

As I undertand it, in LBB D&D, spellcasters can cast any spell from the appropriate spell list, without having to memorise it, but can only cast each spell once per day, is that correct? If that's the case then the issue of whether my "new elf" is really a type of cleric or a type of magic-user doesn't arise, since in terms of game mechanics there's no distinction between them (i.e. MUs don't have to go out and find spells before they can cast them).

[Zulgyan]

Here's a good discussion about OD&D magic:

odd74.proboards76.com/index.cgi?board=menmagic&action=display&thread=355

[kesher]

Someone else (hackman, I think?) suggested the druid spells for cleric idea, which I think is fantastic.

I think the mu/cleric difference is still there in that druids, like clerics, don't need to carry around spell books (which always seemed like a weird thing for elves to be doing...); though there's no "mechanical" difference, per se, there's still a difference to consider--- your elves wouldn't need to worry about losing their books.

Well, unless they needed to carry around bark scrolls or rolled up leaves or something...

[dwayanu]

Druids may get special dispensation in one of the supplements treating them, but ...

Per Men and Magic (in its final paragraph), characters employing spells need spell books. It does not single out the magic-user class, as distinct from clerics.

Nor are clerics (or thieves!) ever stipulated as being able to use scrolls without a "Read Magic" spell.

The rules state: "The number in each column ... indicates the number of spells of each level that can be used (remembered during any single adventure) ... A spell used once may not be reused in the same day."

That is ambiguous enough to admit of several interpretations -- and I have encountered several in practice!

[coffee]

Jun 11, 2008 9:42:38 GMT -6 dwayanu said:

Nor are clerics (or thieves!) ever stipulated as being able to use scrolls without a "Read Magic" spell.

Actually, Thieves are. From Greyhawk:

Thieves of the 3rd level and above are able to read most (80%) languages, so treasure maps can be read and understood by them without recourse to a spell.
Thieves of the 10th level and above are able to understand magical writings, so any scroll that falls into their hands can be used by them — excluding spells which are clerical in nature.

(emphasis added)

Clerics aren't, specifically, given this ability; you're right about that. But I think it's more of an oversight than an actual rule. The fact that they aren't given access to a Read Magic spell is pretty strong circumstantial evidence that they don't need one.

Anyway, whenever magic is discussed, it strikes me that the assumption is that it is Magic-User magic (unless otherwise stated). Here's an example, from Monsters & Treasure, p. 32:

SCROLLS: All Scrolls are spells for Magic-Users...

Note that this contradicts the table, which specifically states that 25% of spell scrolls will be clerical in nature.

This sort of thing crops up throughout the books. I regard this as an "oops" on Gary's part (he was, after all, hurrying to get the books published) and am willing to let it slide in my own game.

But strictly by the book, yes, you are correct.

[dwayanu]

Thieves' ability to understand magical writings does not necessarily (and certainly does not explicitly) encompass using scrolls without "Read Magic."

Is not "understanding magical writings" intrinsic to using scrolls? It seems less a leap to me to read the passage on thieves as indicating an ability in common with MUs (and in contrast to fighters), rather than something altogether different and unprecedented.

I see the point of juxtaposing that with the mention of language-reading equating to map-reading, but still consider that a separate matter.

As a personal preference, I consider the ability to use scrolls without "Read Magic" an inordinate grant of power, especially when denied to MUs. Giving it to thieves also runs against my concept of the classes. Natch, YMMV!

[dwayanu]

I also found the contradiction regarding existence of cleric scrolls curious!

What is one to make of the statement, "Without such a spell or similar device magic is unintelligible to even a Magic-User."?

The proposed exceptions for other classes would make it more accurate as "intelligible to everyone except a Magic-User (or a Fighter)." That seems odd to me.

[coffee]

Jun 11, 2008 10:19:34 GMT -6 dwayanu said:

Thieves' ability to understand magical writings does not necessarily (and certainly does not explicitly) encompass using scrolls without "Read Magic."

Um, I'm not trying to pick a fight here or anything, but I'm gonna have to disagree with you here.

Greyhawk flat out says so:

Thieves of the 10th level and above are able to understand magical writings, so any scroll that falls into their hands can be used by them — excluding spells which are clerical in nature.

It says they can use scrolls. Don't see how it could be any clearer.

The reason I included the 3rd level "read languages" ability in my earlier post was to pass along what little in-game rationale there was for such a thing. Thieves learn to read this stuff -- despite the fact that even Magic-Users don't! Strange, but true.

I think if the intention were that they needed Read Magic (despite the question of how they would get Read Magic without having Read Magic), it would have said so. I think it's just a way to give the Thief player some extra oomph at higher levels.

Now, if you don't want Thieves in your game to have that ability, that's fine. You're the DM. I, too, think it's overpowered. (I don't even use Thieves in my game.)

I also think this discussion should split off into it's own thread; this one is supposed to be about Elves.

[hackman]

Men and Magic is ambiguous when it comes to the whole how do you cast. My initial thought was that the whole list was available for use, no memorization needed. I did float the idea in an earlier thread that elves cast Druid spells if they were generally of the typical woodlands type. I like the idea of using Illusionist spells though.

[busman]

Going forward a bit into AD&D with it's many subraces of elves, it could be interesting to have the druid-wood elves, the illusionist-grey elves, the magic-user high-elves or the like. Not with those names, of course, but might be interesting to have a variety of types of elves.

[coffee]

Jun 11, 2008 15:15:33 GMT -6 busman said:

Going forward a bit into AD&D with it's many subraces of elves, it could be interesting to have the druid-wood elves, the illusionist-grey elves, the magic-user high-elves or the like. Not with those names, of course, but might be interesting to have a variety of types of elves.

Absolutely.

And any of them could be fighters also (particularly the high elves and likely the wood elves), although that should be up to the player.

[TheMyth]

Jun 10, 2008 7:33:48 GMT -6 akiyama said:

Anyway, one of things I'm intending to change from the original rules is elves. I was thinking of having elves be a Basic/Expert type fighter/magic-user, but with the number of spells per day taken from OD&D clerics rather than OD&D magic-users (so, elves would get no spell at level 0). However, I'm thinking of giving elves their own spell lists, using a mixture of Druid and Illusionist spells from AD&D (so examples of first-level spells might be change self or speak with animals). This would make "elf-magic" a little less powerful than MU magic, but also distinctive and, to my mind, more "elfish".

This idea appealed to me, so I ran with it! Submitted for consideration, I present:

The Alternate Elf

Infravision
Hear noise: 1-2 on d6
Detect Secret Doors: 1-4 on d6 if searching, 1-2 casually
Detect Snares & Pits: 1-4 on d6 if searching, 1-2 casually
Immune to Ghoul Paralysis
Speak Orc, Hobgoblin, and Gnoll
Faster movement (base 15”), and the ability to move (up to ½), fire bow, and complete move

Advance as Cleric with regard to experience, hit dice, fighting ability, saving throws & spells
Maximum level of 8 (or 10? or 12?)
Weapons: any
Armor: Leather (mundane or magical), Chain Mail (magical only), Shields (any)
Magic: arms & armor (as above), all potions & rings, scrolls of Elf spells, all wands, some staffs, all miscellaneous magic

Spell List:

Level One
Detect Magic -as MU1
Purify Food & Water -as C1
Faerie Fire -Outlines objects in faint glow; area=10+level sq. ft.; lasts 6 turns; range: 6”
Light -as MU1
Obscurement -misty cloud surrounds Elf; 100 cub. ft./level; lasts 1 turn/level
Change Self -illusionary appearance of humanoid; lasts 10 turns + level + d6
Charm Person -as MU1
Speak with Animals -as C2
Blur -decreases chance to hit Elf by 10%; increases saves by 10%; lasts 4 rounds + d6
Color Spray -knocks unconscious d6 levels of targets (min. of level, max of 6)
Ventriloquism -for 2 turns, caster’s voice can come from objects up to 6” away

Level Two
Cure Light Wounds -as C1
Create Water -as C4
Warp Wood -permanently bend wood 3’ per level at 6” range
Detect Invisible -as MU2
Phantasmal Forces -as MU2
Invisibility -as MU2
Fog -size, shape and maneuverability of Cloudkill, but only blocks vision
Blindness -save vs. spell of permanently blind, range 12”
Hypnotic Pattern -pattern of light captures attention of the following: 4-24 1st level types, 3-18 2nd level types, 2-12 3rd or 4th level types, 1-6 5th or 6th level types for as long as the Elf concentrates (plus 4-9 turns) at a range of 12”
Deafness -save vs., spell of permanently deaf, range 12”
Magic Mouth - mouth appears to speak message of 25 words under specified conditions
Mirror Image - create d6 duplicates for 6 turns. Hit on caster destroys mirror image 1st
Levitate -as MU2
Sleep -as MU1
ESP -as MU2

Level Three
Protection from Fire -as Potion of Fire Resistance
Cure Disease -as C3
Water Breathing -as MU3
Continual Light -as C3
Fly -as MU3
Fear -as wand; cone 6” long by 3” radius
Paralyzation -as wand; cone 6” long by 3” radius; duration as Hold Person
Spectral Forces -as Phantasmal Forces with sounds, smells, and thermals; lasting duration
Invisibility 10’ radius -as MU3
Remove Curse -as C3
Speak with Plants -as C4
Dispel Magic -as MU3
Dispel Exhaustion -provides illusion of being well-rested for 4 hours, then double rest needed
Suggestion - save vs. magic or carry out 1-2 sentence suggestion for up to 1 week

Level Four
Plant Growth -as MU4
Neutralize Poison -as C4
Protection from Lightning -as Potion of Fire Resistance, substituting Lightning for fire
Plant Door -as Dimension Door MU4, but between plants
Insect Plague -as C5
Cure Serious Wounds -as C4
Hallucinatory Terrain -as MU4
Improved Invisibility -as Invisibility but attacks allowed & duration = rnds/level
Massmorph -as MU4
Emotions -like Fear, area affect 3”x3”, up to 18” away, concentration duration
Confusion -as MU4
Polymorph Self -as MU4
Turn Sticks to Snakes -as C4
Shadow Magic -Fireball, Lightning Bolt, Wall of Fire, Cone of Cold (as Wand) at 25%
Lower Water -as MU6

Level Five
Hold Monster -as MU5
Animal Growth -as MU5
Commune with Nature -as C5 Commune with regard to natural environments
Transmute Rock to Mud -as MU5
Polymorph Other -as MU4
Conjure Elemental -as MU5
Transport via Plants -as MU5 Teleport, but between plants
Reincarnate -as MU6
Feeblemind -as MU5
Control Weather -as MU6
Projected Image -as MU6
True Sight -see real form, invisible, displaced, class, level, alignment for 10+d6 turns
Chaos -as Confusion; 3”x3” area up to 12” away; no save; concentration duration
Demi-Shadow Magic -as Shadow Magic at 50%; includes Finger of Death
Part Water -as MU6

OPTIONAL:

Level Six (perhaps 1 6th level spell at level 12?)
Charm Plants
Creeping Doom
Find the Path
Geas
Mass Invisibility
Mass Suggestion
Permanent Illusion
Prismatic Spray
Programmed Illusion
Speak with Monsters
Wind Walk
Vision

Sources:

Clerics and Magic Users from Men & Magic
Druids from Eldritch Wizardry
Illusionists from Best of Dragon volume 1
(reprinted from Strategic Review 104 & Dragon #1)
( online here: www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1615 )