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Post by jeffb on Oct 13, 2020 8:37:20 GMT -6
5 years later, but we can now buy print versions of these amazing old gamebooks and sets (WOTC, PAIZO, and others could learn some lessons on how to properly make big campaign/adventure paths from these) RuneQuest Classics Print
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Post by jeffb on Oct 12, 2020 17:44:04 GMT -6
Have been and always will be Sutherland Orcs in my D&D games.
For me it's the Holmes interior title page.
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Post by jeffb on Oct 11, 2020 9:36:41 GMT -6
This is my fave Halloween time module I should note I am totally not into Zombie anything like most people are these days- this is just a good creepy module. RQ1 on Drive Thru
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Post by jeffb on Oct 10, 2020 8:27:33 GMT -6
Can't help you, other than to say check out the Ravenloft MC's for AD&D stats. Great books to own- Halloween or not.
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Post by jeffb on Oct 6, 2020 14:45:17 GMT -6
I could see it as part of overall consistency with the general mechanic where everything is based on addition not subtraction. Which I'm pretty sure IIRC is the way things were done in 4E. Each race would get a bonus to one score, and then one bonus to a choice between 2 others.
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Post by jeffb on Oct 6, 2020 8:49:36 GMT -6
DCCRPG got old real quick for me and my tastes. Seems to be a lifestyle choice these days. Cultish/Clique-ish. Come on, Jeff, be a bit more chill. I've been running DCCC RPG as my "main" system since it came out in 2012. (?) No cultish/cliquish thing going on at my gaming table... ] Sorry,should be more specific. I mean the DCCRPG online community, not your table at home.
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Post by jeffb on Oct 6, 2020 7:49:44 GMT -6
I think I was the ONLY person who enjoyed their 4E DCC modules of which I have the majority published (And I still think is their most creative D&D work). They worked really hard on those modules and poured a ton of creativity into them. 4e sales were terrible and really hurt Goodman Games, but it made them focus on the DCC RPG a lot more so it worked out in the long run. Conversely, I have given up on DCCRPG, and The 4E modules are my favorite products from them, really. We had a ton of fun with those. In particular the Punjar series and Isle of the Sea Drake. DCCRPG got old real quick for me and my tastes. Seems to be a lifestyle choice these days. Cultish/Clique-ish.
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Post by jeffb on Oct 5, 2020 5:13:42 GMT -6
Nobody is a bigger supporter of Capitalism than I. I would never begrudge GG (or anyone else) for making money and being a business. They can do what they want and is best for them. I've supported them since day 1. DCC modules for 3.x. I think I was the ONLY person who enjoyed their 4E DCC modules of which I have the majority published (And I still think is their most creative D&D work). I've bought into DCC RPG, supported their first 5E Kickstarter, as well as Met Alpha.
My beef is all about (complete lack of) practicality.
I'm guessing most people would rather be able to use these at their table/in a game session, instead of sitting by the fireplace with a glass of X and a cigar waxing nostalgic for the old days.
There's no reason it can't be both. In particular this volume- as the majority of original materials were in normal 8x11 format, not the newsletter format.
Where are my slippers, Dear? And another Merlot please, I'm just about to get into reading the Caverns of Thracia. Oh I killed many PCs back in the day with this one... :chuckle:
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Post by jeffb on Sept 28, 2020 7:02:16 GMT -6
Love to see this bumped yet again. All these years later and WB is still my go-to. Straight out of the book or modded to hell. These days I generally use WB as the base and then add what I want from GH,EW,BM,and some Third party materials I have a BHP color softcover with the dragon on it. I really want a hardcopy of the Mullen cover but in original or second printing text, not whatever the last print version Finch did. I don't think a WB 1st print hardcover was ever officially available. I recently ordered a custom one using the 1st print PDF via Lulu, it came out pretty decent. I was aware that there wasn't a hardcover for WB, I was just making my Xmas wish- I'd want a Hardcopy of the Mullen cover with 1st/2nd print text. Charlie(?) did a great job on FMAG, but I'm not into Finch's last revision at all.
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Post by jeffb on Sept 26, 2020 20:08:34 GMT -6
Have you read Adventures in Fantasy? Yep. This is the classic argument thrown around as "proof" that Dave wasn't a very good designer. But instead of looking at what Dave wasn't able to accomplish, I would challenge you to also look at what Dave did accomplish. How did he manage to inspire so many people and draw them into a completely new form of gaming? What was it he was doing that made Gary Gygax think: I would really love to work with this man again (after Don't Think the Ship) to create D&D which Gary was convinced would blow people's minds? -Havard I'm not talking about Gary. Any criticism of Dave is always met with "yeah. well Gary sux" comments. A far more tired argument than the proof positive of how poorly done AIF is. As I have stated plenty of times, I am mostly unimpressed with all of Dave's published works that I own or used to own- AIF, FFC, AIB, and his contributions to supp II (barring TotF). I also had some d20 books but unsure how much/if any of that was his work. I think Dave was a great "idea guy" and I believe he was amazing at the table and I would have loved to play in a game of his.
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Post by jeffb on Sept 26, 2020 7:41:50 GMT -6
Some attribute that to Dave being a lousy game designer. But he wasn't. Have you read Adventures in Fantasy?
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Post by jeffb on Sept 25, 2020 19:22:19 GMT -6
Love to see this bumped yet again. All these years later and WB is still my go-to. Straight out of the book or modded to hell. These days I generally use WB as the base and then add what I want from GH,EW,BM,and some Third party materials
I have a BHP color softcover with the dragon on it. I really want a hardcopy of the Mullen cover but in original or second printing text, not whatever the last print version Finch did.
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Post by jeffb on Sept 25, 2020 9:04:38 GMT -6
AIME (and TOR), is no longer being published by Cubicle 7, and last I heard was sort of in limbo- So I'm guessing prices Skyrocketed due to "panic". Unsure if that's been resolved.
No doubt that BFRPG, Iron Falcon, or White Box:FMAG are the least expensive ways to get print products in player's hands.
FWIW- I ran a great Middle Earth game using Fantasy Age, which was free for quite some time during COVID but looks to have gone back to full price on DriveThru. I think it fits Middle Earth much better than any D&D-esque game unless you gut it and start over. Complexity wise, it's about the same level as Castles & Crusades. really fun dice mechanics.
I have some old MERP materials which I still utilize ( I use their timeline, generally- TA1640) , otherwise I pretty much can find anything I need re: Middle Earth online in wikis/whatever or in the two ME books you cited, which I also own.
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Post by jeffb on Sept 21, 2020 8:13:17 GMT -6
Ken likes to push buttons when it comes to old guard D&D. And the more you react to it, the more Ken will push your buttons. It's quite obvious how dismissive Gary & Tim were of T&T , so I kind of don't blame him- he was very gracious in those early editions in thanking Gary, etc.
And some still are dismissive- Tim made a comment about T&T and the "character" (not RPG character) of people* involved with it a week or so ago on "Curmudgeon"- every time T&T comes up, Tim pretty much dismisses the game out of hand.
That said- Ken's approach/reaction was very different. And I can kind of see what he is saying-especially if you go from a 1975 perspective having just seen the LBBs and given them a read through. T&T was the same idea of play based on even greater abstraction, instead focused on the scene or story in a big picture format (no movement rates, no initiative and turns broken down to multiple "moves"), with a family boardgamer's perspective. T&T was more gamey and less "serious business". Even to this day D&D still breaks down to a tactical wargame and the whole rule-set is built around this aspect. T&T plays more like the S&S comics Ken was so fond of.
I find all the reactionary pieces - T&T, TPC/RQ, Warlock, fascinating- actually more interesting these days than D&D's pre- history/construction and which guy did what. I know that we deviated heavily with OD&D from the "midwest norms" though we didn't think anything of it or were even aware, until AD&D arrived and Gary started talking about uniformity. I often wonder had we been able to find a copy of T&T or TPC/RQ first, how different things might have been.
* I can only guess he was talking about Crompton or Danforth.
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Post by jeffb on Sept 20, 2020 7:04:17 GMT -6
Goodman's business model has always been about nostalgia and deluxe products for collectors, with actual game usage an afterthought. I stopped buying his products after Into the Borderlands. I love Jaquays and her early work but I have copies and feel no need to get a new hardcover, especially at the steep price they are asking. At least with the OAR series they make them usable game products for the original editions and 5E, as well as delving into the history and origins of the materials (which I love!) . Not to mention they are an appropriate amount of "bulk" for table use, too. This is how I wish the JG, Jaquays, and MetAlpha projects had been handled.
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Post by jeffb on Sept 19, 2020 18:48:02 GMT -6
This current volume states it mostly modules, art pieces and the original dungeoneer zines though- none of that was oversized. Only two journal issues.
And Joe did the same thing for Met Alpha. That product did not originally come in a large size format.
These are items gamers want to experience AND use, not just have sitting on a shelf for "archival" purposes.
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Post by jeffb on Sept 18, 2020 9:29:42 GMT -6
No doubt it will be filled with great content but like the last one I won't be buying it, though I'd like to. For whatever reason Joe Goodman won't do PDFs with this JG stuff (he never gave me an actual reaosn when I inquired with him directly on the last book- he just stumbled around the question). PDF is my only option for 2 reasons
1) Cost.
2) Practical use- The format is a big issue. My game/bookshelf can't handle their crazy oversize books- my GG Met Alpha book/box has been sitting in a cardboard box in the downstairs basement separate from all my other gaming books/boxed sets for years because of this. And more importantly- it is so big and unwieldy its a complete PITA at the table. For most big unwieldy hardcovers, I usually just print out the pages I would need from the PDF to use at the table.
I guess Joe likes coffee table books :shrug:
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Post by jeffb on Sept 18, 2020 7:14:25 GMT -6
Goodman is doing another oversize deluxe hardcover for all of Jaquays early JG output Too rich for my blood and no PDF option like the last JG hardcover, but I'm sure some here will be interested. I'm not sure if I saw it, but they really need to put in Hellpits of Nightfang too. kck.st/2ZNfJIi
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Post by jeffb on Sept 18, 2020 6:22:53 GMT -6
maybe you should try to take elements of 5E and build them into OD&D instead of cutting 5E down. This is the best approach, IMO. Trying to strip 5E bare doesn't accomplish much when it comes to gameplay, other than to make it pretty lackluster (been there done that) Like the idea of 5E HD? Drop 'em in to OD&D. Like the way the Fighters are handled with extra attacks, critical hits, combat styles? Drop 'em into OD&D. Like A/D vs. fiddly modifiers? Drop it into OD&D (many OSR games have already done this- Relics & Ruins is one). Like the idea of Inspiration or Backgrounds, or the way Monster Resistances work? Drop them into OD&D. As an example-I had seen "best of two" or "worst of two" in other games before, but when A/D came out in the NEXT playtest, It clicked and I immediately replaced C&C's Siege Engine mechanic with it. Set a static DC of 15 as a base (+ whatever challenge level to get a total DC), and Attributes that were "Prime" receive advantage on the roll. Non primes, just roll once normally. Works better than the game as written, IMO.
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Post by jeffb on Sept 17, 2020 5:32:30 GMT -6
The point was that even if strictly following the rules, he could do everything except the sword attack. If he skips that, then the jump, chandelier swing, and kick are totally within what he can do in a round. And if he was a fighter or a level 2 thief, then drawing the weapon would also no longer require an action. My point about the DM's discretion wasn't suggesting "handwave everything," it was that the rules about drawing a weapon already collapse into "it's a free action" for all weapon-wielding classes by 2nd level. All classes aside from wizards/sorcerers/etc. have a +1 BAB or higher by 2nd level, so it's really a rule that only ever affects 1st level characters - to my mind, a prime candidate for house ruling. Or you could just play a game where 1) it doesn't matter what base attack bonus you have or class you are to draw a weapon (silly rule- a 1st level rogue is too inexperienced to be able to draw a weapon too?) 2) Could accomplish that whole move (draw, run, jump up to table, jump to chandelier, swing across room) without consulting a rule book 3) You can attack two people close together even though your character isn't allowed two Attacks because you don't have a high enough attack bonus I would have to ignore/handwave 3 rules (weapon draw, second jump onto chandelier, second attack) to "allow" what the kid to do what he wanted to do-And I should have done it for the sake of the session, but I was trying to play fair with all of them and by the rules as we were all learning the rules together. And frankly, getting into a rules discussion here 10 years later is exactly why I avoid games like PF as if they were the plague. But if you like a game where the rules inform the scene/fiction, that's great- I prefer a game where the scene/fiction takes precedence over the rules.
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Post by jeffb on Sept 16, 2020 19:53:21 GMT -6
1st level elven rogue. Drawing a weapon is a move action. Making the run and jump was a move action (doesn't include grabbing the chandelier and swinging across the room). PC out of actions. That's not being a hardass, thats going BTB.
Again, I could just handwave stuff, but that's my point. Why bother with that sort of gameplay and system if you are going to handwave half of it in order to have fun?
But I did make a mistake , and I learned from it- find systems that better fit my natural tendencies and strengths as DM, and that provides a better experience for the kids. As they got older we played other hard coded systems here and there- but we always went back to OD&D/variants, looser/abstract modern systems like 13A , or Dungeon World.
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Post by jeffb on Sept 16, 2020 11:37:39 GMT -6
Any KS is a gamble. I got the rulebook quickly, but waited 4 years (December 2015 to December 2019) for stretch goals to "complete" from NuChaosium's "RQ Classic". The fulfillment was a complete joke after the initial core book ,and never really completed because we were supposed to be able to get (at extra cost, of course) many, if not all of, the stretch goals available in print form at some point. Print availability has not happened for the classic books, yet they keep pumping out tons of new stuff.
For OQ, I'm only concerned about the core book PDF- His stretch goals products I'm not concerned about in the least.
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Post by jeffb on Sept 16, 2020 8:51:44 GMT -6
The "Action economy" of 5E is very baked into the system- combat system, the character class design, spells, overall "balance' of classes/spells , etc. Its no different than previous WOTC editions.
Even doing something as simple as going to "reroll initiative every round" can have significant impacts on gameplay.
You would need to rewrite the game from the ground up, OR handwave a whole lot of stuff. Neither of which I find worth bothering about. PLay 5E for 5E, or play OD&D or whatever else.
The strict action system of WOTC editions is overall my main issue with any of them. It routinely keeps players in the mentality of looking at thier character sheet and asking "can I do this?" Instead of looking at the DM and saying, "this is what I want to do". I had a game with the kids group (Son and 3 of his friends- all around 10-11 yo) circa 2011 where we were playing PF Beginner Box. One kid (friend of my son) came into a situation and blurted out "I run 10 feet jump on the table and swing on the chandelier- I'll kick the first guy with my boot and slice the other guy with my sword", which just cannot happen in PF BB- it's too many actions, it breaks too many rules, etc. Going by the book, as gentle as I could I squashed the kid's idea- "you can move 10 feet and jump up, but you can't draw your sword, and you will have to wait to do the chandalier, and then you can only attack one guy". Of course by the time his turn came up again, none of that made any sense to do, and it made a pretty gun shy kid even more gun shy. It was a huge mistake on my part and ruined the entire effing game.
And the next week we started playing S&W and never went back to hard coded action systems like that.
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Post by jeffb on Sept 16, 2020 8:32:24 GMT -6
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Post by jeffb on Sept 16, 2020 8:10:18 GMT -6
Actually, I'm more curious as to how thomden was able to post an image. I thought that function had been disabled.
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Post by jeffb on Sept 15, 2020 16:19:41 GMT -6
Don't get me wrong- the gap has narrowed considerably from quality low to quality high. The overall quality of artists IMO has gone up because the amount of visual presence in Fantasy (and Sci-Fi and Sci Fantasy and Horror) has increased several orders of magnitude from OD&D's heyday of the early to mid 1970s. Certainly someone can do an amazing "realistic" Beholder.- They've had thousands of images to look at and re-interpret and practice doing. BUT- I'd rather look at the one on the cover of Supp 1: Because that is the first amateur interpretation of what was in the mind's eye of a young Terry Kuntz. Dave Sutherland is another example- he gave future artists the blueprint for D&D and Tekumel. It's like playing guitar- Its easy to learn what other people play-even "Gods" like Hendrix, Page, Rhoads, Van Halen, Segovia, Joe Pass, etc (insert your favorite famous guitarist here) once your technique is up to snuff. But its far more difficult to create from an idea in your head...."from scratch". While the new books may be pretty and colorful (and way more expensive because of it)- I'm just not in the camp of this is "better". The type of art in the first post (EDIT-now changed because of the thread merge) is a dime a dozen these days. I've seen stuff of that calibre on the free toys and comics in my Kids' Happy Meals. And I don't mean to de-rail the thread any further. So I'll put a sock in it FWIW- I really enjoy YOUR art, TD- I've seen it in Guardians and WotRP (did you also do mechanized men of mars?). Finarvyn OK Fin. Understood.
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Post by jeffb on Sept 15, 2020 11:20:48 GMT -6
I think that Thomden's point was that in RPG books the artwork has evolved from simple line art to really impressive color plates. I'm not sure I would agree that means the art has come a long way though, Fin Are RPG books full of color art, and people with more technical skill on average than RPG books in 1976? Absolutely. Is better overall talent in the RPG artist pool, digital artistry, and more color art in game books, a better thing? Big Nope from me. Are the fantasy artists of today better talents than early fantasy artists? Always debatable, but another Big Nope, AFAIC. I don't see anyone who is "best in class" of today that has set the bar higher than the best in class of yesteryear.
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Post by jeffb on Sept 15, 2020 9:27:15 GMT -6
I acknowledge fantasy art has come a long ways and is really pretty amazing right now. I'm not sure it has come a long ways. Frazetta, Vallejo, Angus McBride- they were doing amazing art before D&D was a thing. I do believe there are a larger # of talented people working in the industry now than "BITD" for gaming, but I don't feel quality/talent has had any new benchmarks hit or bars that have been raised. Stylistically is a whole 'nother kettle of fish- and I definitely can't agree there. Again, there may be more talent, but like the games themselves, I see alot of "same-y-ness" in modern fantasy.
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Post by jeffb on Sept 14, 2020 14:07:35 GMT -6
Disappointed- I thought you were talking about THIS
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Post by jeffb on Sept 9, 2020 17:34:39 GMT -6
Yeah, I'm backing this too. This something I'd like a hardcopy of for at the table. I sold my original RQ collection years ago due to an extended layoff and I'd like to keep my Chaosium reprint "mint" for nostalgia's sake. I'll never be able to afford all my original Chaosium RQ and AH RQ3 items again, and I don't feel like giving the new company any more money.
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