|
Post by Stormcrow on Nov 12, 2013 0:00:28 GMT -6
EXAMPLES
A Lawful unit containing a Hero (MH) and three Peasant (LF) figures engage a Chaotic unit of four Mercenary (HF) figures and attack. The Hero rolls 8 dice ("2 dice per man") and gets 5, 2, 2, 1, 1, 5, 5, 1. That's three hits ("5, 6 kills"). The Peasants only roll 1 die ("1 die per 2 men"), and get 5, which is raised to 6 for being in a unit with a Hero. That's one kill ("6 kills"). The Lawful unit has wiped out the Chaotic unit.
In another battle, one being conducted using the Man-to-Man rules, the Hero (spear, chain mail) attacks a Knight (sword, plate armor, shield). This is not a joust; they are swinging swords at each other on foot. The Hero doesn't have a great chance: he needs a 12 on two dice to kill the Knight. He rolls two dice four times and gets 7, 6, 8, 8. No hits. The Knight counterattacks with a single roll of two dice (he's a normal man, not fantastic), needing 8 to hit. He rolls 9—a hit! However, the Hero requires four simultaneous hits to kill, so nothing happens. The Knight cannot kill the Hero alone, but the Hero will sooner or later kill the Knight.
|
|
|
Post by Stormcrow on Nov 12, 2013 0:21:53 GMT -6
it says it right in their description that they are subsumed in the unit they fight with It does not say that. It does not say this is the only noticeable effect; these effects are in addition to having "the fighting ability of four figures." Of course it's ridiculous. It's utterly fantastic. This is, after all, the Fantasy Supplement. What is this question supposed to mean? One Wizard figure is one Wizard, not forty. Of course not. It's one Hero with the fighting ability of four figures, i.e., 80 men. A Hero can bring down a Dragon with a bow, and a Peasant can't because the Hero is fantastic and the Peasant isn't. No it doesn't. It comes from the smaller scale of dungeons compared to the battlefield. When adventures went underground, scale was reduced to compensate. Don't confuse ground scale with figure-to-man ratio. Yes. This just isn't true. A spell of Confusion affects up to 20 figures, period. It doesn't matter whether the figures are 1:20 or 1:1. Don't be silly. I imagine there weren't any, because you seem to be the only one to have trouble with the concept. D&D is only derived from Chainmail; it is not a later edition of Chainmail. D&D is not Chainmail.Because the Heroes have better things to do? Because spell effects are considered to be fixed, but ranges are more playable when they match up better with improved movement and missile ranges in the clutter- and corridor-free environment of the outdoors.
|
|
|
Post by cooper on Nov 12, 2013 0:51:49 GMT -6
Going line by line and erecting straw men arguments is not an enjoyable read. You said fantastic opponents were never meant to be used in man-to-man combat, yet the magic item section literally only gives the effects for fantastic combat and man-to-man combat so until you answer this glaring mistake on your part there is little need to rebut anything else you write Stormcrow.
I'll quote it for you again, "pg. 38 "magic armor subtracts one from opponent's attack dice on the Fantasy Table, three on Man-to-Man attacks"
Odd...no mention on how to adjudicate magic armor (or swords or arrows) in mass combat.
|
|
|
Post by Stormcrow on Nov 12, 2013 2:05:38 GMT -6
Going line by line and erecting straw men arguments is not an enjoyable read. I quite agree. It's a good thing I haven't built any straw men! No, I said they weren't designed for it. They can be used with it, but they were obviously written up with mass combat in mind. Doubt this? Then tell me how Wizards fight on the Man-to-Man tables. That's an excuse not to have to acknowledge what I wrote. Heroes do fight in normal combat: they attack and defend as four figures, which happens to be the fighting power of 80 men. They also give the combat rolls of their unit +1, and they will be the last unit killed in normal combat. In Man-to-Man combat, Heroes roll four times on the Man-to-Man tables, which is, of course, the fighting ability of four men. This change in fighting ability is not explained anywhere; it is just the fact of having multiple combat systems in the same set of rules. Likewise, Trolls fight as six Heavy Foot figures (120 men), Giants attack as 12 Heavy Foot figures and defend as 12 Armored Foot figures (240 men), and Dragons attack as four Heavy Horse figures (80 riders) and are immune to normal attacks. It's all the same thing. Fantastic figures in Chainmail are not remotely realistic, and they're not supposed to be.
|
|
|
Post by Stormcrow on Nov 12, 2013 2:16:43 GMT -6
Odd...no mention on how to adjudicate magic armor (or swords or arrows) in mass combat. Magic SwordsMass Combat: Add an extra die; Elves get an extra two dice against Orcs, three dice against Goblins. Fantastic Combat: Allow Elves to use Fantastic Combat; give +1 or more to roll. Man-to-Man Combat: No mention. Magic ArrowsMass Combat: Always hit. Fantastic Combat: Allow Elves to use Fantastic Combat; roll Fantastic Combat at a distance with no return attack. Man-to-Man Combat: No mention. Magic ArmorMass Combat: No mention. Fantastic Combat: -1 from opponent's attack. Man-to-Man Combat: -3 from opponent's attack.
|
|
jacar
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Posts: 345
|
Post by jacar on Nov 12, 2013 7:04:38 GMT -6
I don't have my copy with me right now so I am doing this from memory. 1) Heroes and Superheroes are the last figure hit in a unit. This is what the rules state and is a bit odd to me since they both are very tough to kill to begin with since they have to take 4 or 8 hits in a single round to die. I changed that in my rewrite. That's how I know. 2) It does not explicitly say if fantasy characters can fight in MtM combat but you can extrapolate this by the intro in the MtM section which states that all rules in the massed combat section apply unless otherwise noted and changed here. So as the FC section is an extension of massed combat section, the rules do apply. 3) The wounding rules do apply to fantasy creatures. So you would have to hit a creature that fights as 4 men 4 times in MtM combat in 1 turn. 4) The 4-40-80 man scale can be reconciled by the fact that massed combat has a longer game turn. It is not exact (what is in CM anyway?) but it is good enough. 5) Magic armor and weapons were probably intended for the FC table and would still work nicely with MtM combat. For instance, if a hero with magic armor causes a -1 to all attacks and a normal unit needs a 6 to hit, how are they supposed to hit the hero? 6) You get 1 roll for attacks on the FC table...just in case anyone thought otherwise!
|
|
|
Post by Stormcrow on Nov 12, 2013 9:19:06 GMT -6
1) Heroes and Superheroes are the last figure hit in a unit. This is what the rules state and is a bit odd to me since they both are very tough to kill to begin with since they have to take 4 or 8 hits in a single round to die. I changed that in my rewrite. That's how I know. The logic is that since a Hero represents only a single man, while ordinary troops represent 20 men each, you can't selectively engage that one man among all those others. This is true of ordinary commander figures as well. This is true of Heroes, but not of Ogres, who are killed by cumulative hits, not simultaneous hits. No, Chainmail turns are one minute each, whether using mass combat or the Man-to-Man tables. Some fantastic figures are meant to be unhittable. Note: while conducting mass combat, you don't suddenly switch to Man-to-Man to fight a Hero; Man-to-man is a separate system, to be played independently. You could do so for important combats of, say, Hero versus Anti-hero or commander versus commander, but the rules do not expect this.
|
|
|
Post by cooper on Nov 12, 2013 9:47:24 GMT -6
Odd...no mention on how to adjudicate magic armor (or swords or arrows) in mass combat. Magic SwordsMass Combat: Add an extra die; Elves get an extra two dice against Orcs, three dice against Goblins. Fantastic Combat: Allow Elves to use Fantastic Combat; give +1 or more to roll. Man-to-Man Combat: No mention. This is entirely backwards. Elves get an extra 2 dice against orcs in man to man combat. Not mass combat. An elf with a magic sword fighting an Orc MTM rolls 4d6 and the Orc rolls 2d6 attack. (Again we see the magic sword wielding elf as a minor-hero, small consolation to the hero unit with four attacks with a 3d6 roll--this is also where the elf in D&D derives his +1 to hit orcs) This entry shows MTM and FCT. Magic sword +1d6 is symmetrically balanced against magic armies -3 pips. Being mounted gives another +1/-1 pip. This one is over the top. Again, this references MTM combat, mass combat archery doesn't even rely on attack roles, damage is based on number of troops firing.. It doesn't even make sense to say "always hit" if referring to mass combat--stop your knee jerk disagreement with me and read the rules. Of course there is no mention. As to how do wizards fight in 1:1 combat? You use mass combat rules at 1:1 just like Gary explains in men and magic. Or decide what "armored foot" means in man to man just like you would have to do with any other armored foot in man-to-man. Gary also specifically says that spells are used in man to man scales, specifically in ad&d. Shows it in swords and spells and is assumed in men and magic (where he says fireball is just like chain mail and then shows the area in feet, not yards) Now it's one thing to try and not let changes made in D&D to effect interpretations, but it's another entirely to do the exact opposite and not wonder why Gygax interpreted later rules the way he did.
|
|
|
Post by Stormcrow on Nov 12, 2013 10:31:02 GMT -6
Magic SwordsMass Combat: Add an extra die; Elves get an extra two dice against Orcs, three dice against Goblins. Fantastic Combat: Allow Elves to use Fantastic Combat; give +1 or more to roll. Man-to-Man Combat: No mention. This is entirely backwards. Elves get an extra 2 dice against orcs in man to man combat. Not mass combat. An elf with a magic sword fighting an Orc MTM rolls 4d6 and the Orc rolls 2d6 attack. (Again we see the magic sword wielding elf as a minor-hero, small consolation to the hero unit with four attacks with a 3d6 roll--this is also where the elf in D&D derives his +1 to hit orcs) This entry shows MTM and FCT. Magic sword +1d6 is symmetrically balanced against magic armies -3 pips. Being mounted gives another +1/-1 pip. What makes you think the entry for Elves is describing Man-to-man and not mass combat? vs. Goblins - add 3 dice to Combat Tables vs. Orcs - add 2 dice to Combat Tables "Combat Tables" (notice the capitalization) are on p. 40: the mass-combat tables. See the title on the page. I don't understand what you're talking about with "+1d6 is symmetrically balanced against magic armies -3 pips" or the bit about being mounted. You're being very unpleasant; please clean up your act. I can accept your logic here: the section on Magic Arrows may reasonably be inferred to be speaking of normal combat in Man-to-man mode.
|
|
|
Post by derv on Nov 12, 2013 19:14:06 GMT -6
Case in point, in OD&D could a 4th level fighter shoot and kill a dragon out of the sky using the ACS? Yet, even a 1st level fighter can hit and do damage to a dragon using the ACS. He's going to die, but he can score a hit (the same could be said for the 4th level fighter). In Chainmail, normal troop types can do no damage to a dragon. A Hero can shoot and kill a dragon out of the sky on a roll of 10+. Worthwhile noting, perhaps?, that OD&D monsters also have all the special benefits ascribed to them in CM (it says so on p5 of M&T). Thus OD&D dragons are also impervious to normal missiles (but whether or not the ref chooses to apply this protection to the youngest dragons is a matter of interpretation). Also, regarding shooting down a flying dragon (or any flier for that matter), the ground-to-air missile rules (U&WA p27) would probably apply and these explain how any missile hit could be critical and could potentially result in a "dead in the air" or other terminal result... so (if you use those rules) it is plausible that a hero could shoot down a flying dragon Here's a short list of terms that are ambiguous and shift in there meanings and useage in Chainmail and OD&D: 1. Scale (most of the discussion here is actually more properly to do with ratio, but Chainmail uses the term scale) 2. Man/men 3. Figure 4. Normal 5. Fantastic Any of these terms will bring points of disagreement in how they are meant within the rules. It would be worthwhile to clarify these terms and there meanings if at all possible. That being said, I'm uncertain whether you're implying that dragons can only be hit by magic weapons when you say, they are "impervious to normal missiles". I don't want to put words in your mouth. But it does not specify that a Hero in Chainmail needs to shoot a "magic" arrow to kill a flying dragon. It seems to suggest that a Hero (because he is a hero) can shoot down a dragon with a "normal" arrow. More specifically, dragons in Chainmail "are impervious to missile or melee hits in 'normal' combat". What is "normal combat" in OD&D using the ACS? In Chainmail, it means combat with any figure that is not on the Fantasy Combat Table. It has nothing to do with enchanted swords or arrows. What's interesting is, because you mentioned the ground-to-air rules in U&WA, I happened to also look at the Land Combat section on pg. 25. Now I'm going to break my self imposed restrictions by mentioning this in relation to understanding Chainmail C'est la vie. I doubt it will convince anyone one way or the other because it uses terms found in my short list above that leaves it open to some interpretation. I may actually be opening a can of worms. It states: "The basic system is that from Chainmail, with one figure representing one man or creature. Melee can be conducted with the combat table given in Volume 1 or by the Chainmail system, with scores equalling a drive back or kill equal only to a hit. Battles involving large numbers of figures can be fought at a 20:1 ratio, with single fantastic types fighting seperately at 1:1 or otherwise against but a single 20:1 figure."
Actually, the more times I read that reference, the more it has me scratching my head. The first reference to the Chainmail system is clearly having to do with the FCT. The second reference might also be using the FCT or Man-to-Man table. I should have stuck to my self imposed restrictions
|
|
|
Post by waysoftheearth on Nov 12, 2013 20:10:23 GMT -6
I'm uncertain whether you're implying that dragons can only be hit by magic weapons when you say, they are "impervious to normal missiles". I don't want to put words in your mouth. But it does not specify that a Hero in Chainmail needs to shoot a "magic" arrow to kill a flying dragon. It seems to suggest that a Hero (because he is a hero) can shoot down a dragon with a "normal" arrow. Yes I'm with you on that derv; a hero is heroic and should be able to shoot dragons with or without a magic arrow. This is also implied in M&M:
|
|
|
Post by Stormcrow on Nov 12, 2013 20:42:49 GMT -6
Here's a short list of terms that are ambiguous and shift in there meanings and useage in Chainmail and OD&D: 1. Scale (most of the discussion here is actually more properly to do with ratio, but Chainmail uses the term scale) 2. Man/men 3. Figure 4. Normal 5. Fantastic Any of these terms will bring points of disagreement in how they are meant within the rules. It would be worthwhile to clarify these terms and there meanings if at all possible. I strongly recommend trying to find a copy of Beginners' Guide to Wargaming by Bruce Quarrie. It won't help with normal versus fantastic, but it'll let you understand the wargamer's terms. If a unit of non-fantastic (not on the Fantasy Combat Table) figures fires non-magical missiles at a Dragon (or fights it in melee) during mass combat, they cannot harm it in any way. If a Hero fires a normal arrow at a flying Dragon during mass combat, this is not "normal missiles." The action is handled with the special rules given in the description of the Hero. One of the benefits of Magic Arrows is that it lets you attack on the Fantasy Combat Table at a distance. This implies that the FCT is usually only for melee. Thus... Hero with normal arrow vs. flying Dragon: 2 dice, 10 kills (p. 30). Hero with Magic Arrow vs. flying Dragon: 2 dice, 9 kills (p. 30). Hero with normal arrow vs. grounded Dragon: no hit possible (p. 35). Hero with Magic Arrow vs. grounded Dragon: 12=fall back, no kill possible (FCT and p. 38). Ranger with Magic Arrow vs. grounded Dragon: 11=fall back, 12=kill (p. 30, p. 38, and FCT). Irrelevant in D&D. In the D&D combat system, Dragons are not impervious to missiles or melee, but a "normal" combatant has to get reeeeeeeally lucky to score a hit on a Dragon. With the exceptions that Elves with Magic Swords fight in fantastic combat using the scores on p. 29, and Elves with Magic Arrows strike at a distance on the FCT using the Hero line. Otherwise, you are correct. It's an unclear passage, to be sure. I believe it means that land combat (dealing with invasions and sieges, not dungeoneering) is to be played as a game of Chainmail. A small scale game should be played with a 1:1 figure ratio, which means Man-to-man tables for normal combat (where one side is non-fantastic) and the Fantasy Combat Table for fantastic combat (where both sides are fantastic). If the battle is large-scale, use the mass combat rules with non-fantastic types at 1:20 ratio, but fantastic figures remain at the 1:1 ratio and can only attack one figure, fantastic or non-fantastic, at a time. In all cases, instead of being killed or driven back when hit, figures lose hit points as normal. (So a Hero, with four dice of hit points, will average about four hits before being killed, just like in Chainmail, although it's now cumulative, and it's not necessarily going to be exactly four hits.) I have to suppose that this doesn't apply to 1:20 figures; one successful hit kills them. But the passage also gives you the option of using the D&D combat system instead of the Chainmail tables: you use the Chainmail rules for movement and morale and so on, but the D&D combat tables for hit determination. In such a case a fantastic creature fighting a normal unit in mass combat would not get one roll per hit die; it would only get one roll.
|
|
|
Post by derv on Nov 12, 2013 20:45:46 GMT -6
Actually, I should not have said, it has nothing to do with enchanted swords or arrows. This is not true. An enchanted arrow or magical sword would allow an otherwise "normal" elf to roll on the FCT as a hero in Chainmail.
In relation to your "protection from normal missiles" spell reference. Again, what is your definition of "normal" or "above normal"? I'm not sure what you are implying? That this spell is useless against 4th level and above fighters?
|
|
|
Post by derv on Nov 12, 2013 21:27:11 GMT -6
I strongly recommend trying to find a copy of Beginners' Guide to Wargaming by Bruce Quarrie. It won't help with normal versus fantastic, but it'll let you understand the wargamer's terms. I understand the terms. I just think they are used in multple ways in Chainmail and OD&D that creates some confusion. Some terms, Gary uses interchangebly with one another, such as "figure" and "man" or "scale" and "ratio" as examples. But I'll look for that book on Amazon. I don't disagree, but it seemed that WotE was suggesting otherwise. It seemed to be saying that you could use 1:1 fantastic figures and pit them against 20:1 figures. Supporting the line of discussion we've been having. Where it's fuzzy is that it says "against but a single 20:1 figure".
|
|
|
Post by Stormcrow on Nov 12, 2013 21:49:33 GMT -6
That means, "Your Hero figure, which represents one man who fights like four figures, can only melee one of the 1:20 figures in mass combat per turn. You can't spread multiple simultaneous hits over several 1:20 figures." This is probably to reign in some of the more devastating effects in Chainmail.
|
|
|
Post by Stormcrow on Nov 12, 2013 21:50:03 GMT -6
That means, "Your Hero figure, which represents one man who fights like four figures, can only melee one of the 1:20 figures in mass combat per turn. You can't spread multiple simultaneous hits over several 1:20 figures." This is probably to reign in some of the more devastating effects in Chainmail.
|
|
jacar
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Posts: 345
|
Post by jacar on Nov 13, 2013 11:42:32 GMT -6
The passage could have used an example but it does seem to say that a fantasy figure can kill a maximum of one 1:20 man figure per turn. If you were to roll say 4 dice in melee and at least 1 came up a hit, you would score 1 kill. If all 4 scored a hit you would still kill only 1 figure.
Magic weapons add +1 in fantasy combat and in MtM combat. Magic armor gives a -1 on the fantastic combat table and -3 in MtM combat. Neither do anything in Massed combat though elves get extra bonuses because they are assumed to be wielding these weapons.
|
|
|
Post by derv on Nov 13, 2013 16:49:32 GMT -6
The passage could have used an example but it does seem to say that a fantasy figure can kill a maximum of one 1:20 man figure per turn. If you were to roll say 4 dice in melee and at least 1 came up a hit, you would score 1 kill. If all 4 scored a hit you would still kill only 1 figure. Magic weapons add +1 in fantasy combat and in MtM combat. Magic armor gives a -1 on the fantastic combat table and -3 in MtM combat. Neither do anything in Massed combat though elves get extra bonuses because they are assumed to be wielding these weapons. Both Stormcrow and your explanation of this reference makes perfectly good sense. It is actually a good way of curving the power of Heroes and Supers in 1:20 mass combat. Your mention of magic weapons leaves out the point that magic swords "add an extra die" in normal combat (pg. 38). This only makes sense for the mass combat table. Enchanted arrows and magic armor do not make any specific mention to mass combat, but I would possibly extrapolate that magic armor would subtract 1 die from an opponents attack roll. Enchanted arrows would be hard to justify with mass combat, though. Just an idea and this would definately fall under the "house rule" category, but it could be counted as an extra "figure/unit" on the missile table.
|
|
jacar
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Posts: 345
|
Post by jacar on Nov 13, 2013 18:38:00 GMT -6
Yeah. I typically read these things at work and don't have a copy of CM there. Then I come home, forget half of what is said, read the passage and leave out important stuff. Magic armor only protects the user. Unless it is a suit of armor that has a protective radius of some sort, it should only protect the individual so would not be useful in a massed battle where the hero is part of a unit. I agree that magic arrows are hard to justify other than being a "1 shot" extra die.
|
|
|
Post by cooper on Nov 14, 2013 0:15:18 GMT -6
Incorrect.
1) magic weapons are named objects. Sting, Excalibur, glamdring, odin's spear!-- there is no concept of "generic +1 sword" that 20 elves can all wield.
2) +1d6 makes perfect sense in MtM combat. Magic armor gives a -3 to attack and instead of a magic sword simply negating this, it provides an average of +3 to the attack. You normally roll a 2d6 attack on the MtM table, but with a magic sword you roll a 3d6. If he's mounted you roll 3d6-1, if you are also a ranger and he's wearing magic armor it's 3d6-3. Without this bonus it is literally impossible to kill a mounted enemy in magic armor. 2d6-4 means almost no attack is possible as most require 8+
3) furthermore, the assumption that 10 points gives you twenty elves armed with magic swords is a rule that cannot work. A single hero costs 25 points, you don't get a legion of figures each capable of fighting on the FCT for 14 points.
4) the elf entry refers to single elves armed with magic swords. It gives their bonus on the 1:1 MtM scale and the 1:1 fantasy combat scale. Magic items are 1:1.
5) what can be inferred for mass combat is that elves do triple casualties against goblins and double casualties to ogres and orcs. Normal elves roll 4d6 on the MtM table vs goblins and 3d6 vs. orcs and 2d6 vs ogres (but double damage) An elf with a magic sword in MtM rolls 5d6 vs goblins and 4d6 vs. orcs and can slay an ogre on the FCT in a single hit.
For normal elves In mass combat each hit is 3 casualties vs. goblins. Each hit is 2 casualties vs. orcs and ogres. This makes sense in literature as tolkiens elves are often outnumbered by the forces of woe who also bring ogres, trolls, balrogs, wargs etc to the fight, but elves are still capable of holding their own. There is no way to adjudicate magic weapons in mass combat (although if you spend 200pts on 20 magic sword, I suppose you could come up with something)
By purchasing a magic sword (10pts) you may arm an elf (presumably the non-hero commander) and this elf may step out of 1:20 scale into 1:1 scale in order to fight on the FCT if you don't have a hero.
|
|
|
Post by derv on Nov 14, 2013 16:32:10 GMT -6
Cooper, your personal interpretation of magic weapons sounds reasonable. I'm in no way trying to invalidate your approach to the game.
I have not given this matter of magic weapons alot of thought because it has not come up in play. But, I feel as if I at least have to reply to a couple of your comments.
First, excalibur, sting, etc. are in a category that Chainmail refers to as "Super Swords". These grant plus 2 or 3. So, yes, I would consider the magic sword that adds an extra die a "generic +1 sword".
Second, you seem to keep inferring things about scale that I am not saying. Scale and Fighting Ability are not the same thing even though they look similar.
Third, the elf entry in the Fantasy Supplement specifically says they "add a die in normal combat" when armed with a magic weapon. It proceeds to say in the same sentence that they will perform even better vs. goblins and orcs on the Combat Tables. Not MtM and not FCT. Goblins and Orcs will be 1:20 and are not present on the FCT. When it refers to the Hero, Super Hero, Wizard, etc. it specifically states on the FCT. These are 1:1.
Generally speaking, I would concede to your conclusions about scale and fighting abiltity if it wasn't for one thing. The Fantasy Supplement includes Troop Type equivalents in all there descriptions. What's the point if you are only going to use these figures in 1:1? Why is it necessary to describe a Wizard as 2 AF or a Balrog as 2 HH? It would be better to simply describe their armor and weapon classes for Man-to-Man. Even that isn't necessary for the FCT. If you tell me it's because you can use them with the Appendix A Combat Tables with all figures being 1:1, I wouldn't disagree. But, this implies that Chainmail is really a set of Skirmish rules better suited to 1:1 and this I know was not the authors intent. The intro and opening of Chainmail doesn't even mention 1:1 scale. As far as I can tell, Chainmail is primarily a game intended to be played at 1:10 or 1:20 even with the Fantasy Supplement.
|
|
|
Post by cooper on Nov 15, 2013 1:09:29 GMT -6
Don't take the preceding or the following too harshly. If you go back and look at my posts, I made some pretty big errors of interpretation along the way--the rulebook is a solid set of rules, but easily misunderstood and misinterpreted.
I enjoy having this conversation. That being said...
0d&d refers to to men as heavy foot in the write up on bandits, does that mean there are no 1:1 bandits in 0d&d? Calling someone "heavy foot" is generic term, gygax didn't want to mandate all X men carry X weapons. Some could have chain mail and a mace, others could be in leather+shield+long sword, both could be called, "heavy foot." A wizard can have a "shield" spell and carry a "staff of striking" and be called "armored foot". They couldn't list an "armor class" because they didn't figure it out yet--armor class wasn't invented, so how do you say a wizard is well armored? You call him "armored foot" and the referee can determine for himself how to conduct the battles. Most simply, mass combat on 1:1 scale or some reasonable interpretation of MtM.
0d&d itself, in the very write up of the classes says you can use mass combat at 1:1 scale (in fact Dave Arneson did something similar in his proto-d&d games). You could use the FCT, you could use the MtM table, you could use the mass combat rules 1:1 or you could use this new fangled d20 "alternate" combat system. I have no problem with a hero attacking as 4 units of troops, using the mass combat rules, I just have a problem with people who think it is a worthwhile interpretation of the rules to say a hero is 4 units of men at 1:20. It doesn't work in theory, it doesn't work in practice, it makes no logical sense, it does't mimic any type of fantasy that gary based the fantasy supplement to CHAINMAIL on and obviously was not interpreted that way in men and magic.
Furthermore spending 14 points for twenty elf heroes each with their own sword, each capable of attacking on the FCT is a joke if your opponent spends 25 points for a single hero who's not much better than one of those twenty elves. There is no way to play the game that way, the fantasy supplement is a failure of imagination, rule making, and wargaming if this were true. It ain't true.
why do you assume "combat tables" refers to mass combat and not MtM? It shows the FCT this is a man to man table It is the man to man fantasy table, why wouldn't the other parts be the normal man to man table? It has already established that they are talking about an elf with a magic sword, and magic items are for individuals heroes.
There are 3 tables: fantastic Man-to-Man combat tables Normal Man-to-Man combat tables Normal Mass combat tables.
"They will perform even better vs. goblins and orcs in normal combat. "Normal Combat" is also MtM. This section is talking about an elf with a magic sword. An elf with a magic sword can kill an ogre in fantastic man to man combat in a single hit. An elf without a magic sword takes 3 hits. Listen. The elf section includes information on 1:20 elves, but concludes with information on elvish heroes with magic swords. The ogre section gives information on how normal elves fight ogres (jn MtM and Mass combat).
Stop thinking as a D&D player. Gary was attempting to bring J.R.R. Tolkiens world to war-gaming. There are no generic swords that all elves carry, there are no magic items for legions of nameless soldiers. Magic items are for heroes and villains. Magic swords do not shed light in an area the size of a football field (12' in mass combat is 120 yards!). Who buying this game in 1973 after reading the hobbit would think this is a good interpretation of the light shed by sting and glamdring?
|
|
|
Post by derv on Nov 15, 2013 17:04:13 GMT -6
Oh boy cooper. It's been a long day at work and I'm running low on energy, but I'll give your comments some thought and get back to you. In the mean time, I'd ask that you take a look at the DF thread that Otto brought up in the "Chainmail Campaign" discussion and read over the play report. It's located here www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=18764&hilit=chainmail+moat+houseThis is a game that both Gary and Jeff were in. It's a seige and it's played at 1:10 (for the same reasons I chose to run my seige in 1:20). There is definately some 1:1 action also. It's in no way conclusive evidence because the descriptions are somewhat vague and don't go into the details of the mechanics. But, I would point you to the description of the encounter with the Treant in turn 3-4 and also the encounter with Commander Otis and the orcs in turn 5. I'm going to have a beer and relax tonight.
|
|
|
Post by cooper on Nov 15, 2013 17:24:25 GMT -6
"he waded in and killed 50 on the spot." This write up is listing the turns of combat, but the game requires multiple rounds of melee, the write up is giving a birds eye view of each turn, but clearly there are multiple rounds being played out, this is the case in MtM and Mass combat. The super hero kills 50 min in TURN 5 but he does this over the course of multiple rounds.
8 attacks per round, would take him less than 1 turn (in chainmal = 1 minute) to kill 50 orcs quite easily. First of all it is impossible to slay 50 in one exchange because you can only melee bases you are in contact with, so for sure melee took multiple rounds within each turn.
The treant write up in CHAINMAIL is explicitly man to man (orcs must roll 2d6 attack to burn a tree down) so explain to me why a fantastic creature like a treant fighting orcs is fighting on the MtM table (again the treant write up says men who can't fight on the MtM fantasy table roll 2d6 attack), but the superhero is somehow fighting in mass combat?
Furthermore the Druids spell is large enough to hit only a single catapult, again, obviously man to man scale.
And finally, if the players are attempting to take a d&d scenario and play it out in mass combat (which gary and company were doing--playing d&d and using the chain mail rules for mass combat), what possible benefit is there to increasing the power of the PC by a magnitude of 10? Let alone 20? What purpose does it serve for a group of players playing through The Temple of Elemental Evil?
I've stated out B2 keep on the borderlands in exactly this same fashion. It makes zero sense to change the scale of the players when shifting to mass combat.
|
|
|
Post by Stormcrow on Nov 15, 2013 17:39:15 GMT -6
They couldn't list an "armor class" because they didn't figure it out yet-- armor class wasn't inventedSure it was: see p. 41. I don't buy the argument dismissing classifications of Light Foot, Heavy Foot, and so on. If these were meant to be a hand-wavy whatever-the-referee-likes sort of thing, they wouldn't appear with their own columns on the Fantasy Reference Table. These values are used directly on the Combat Tables Halflings: "For every two Halflings firing count three on the Missile Fire table." While this could mean that two 1:1 Halflings standing side by side using the Individual Fires With Missiles table get an extra 2d6 roll between them, it makes much more sense if it's referring to two 1:20 Halflings rolling on the Missile Fire table on p. 11. Elves (and Fairies): It seems quite clear to me that Elves and Fairies can operate on both 1:20 and 1:1 scale. They operate at 1:1 when armed with magic weapons, where they are worse than a Hero against fantastic 1:1 figures, but get bonus dice against 1:20 Goblins and Orcs. But this only applies to Elves and Fairies armed with magic weapons; other Elves and Fairies have no scores against fantastic opponents, and so must necessarily operate in normal 1:20 mode. You're not getting a bargain by arming an Elf with a Magic Sword instead of choosing a Hero: the Hero is 20 points; the Elf is 4 points, the Magic Sword is 10 points, and the Elf will fight generally worse than the Hero (though they're good against Ogres and Giants). Orcs: "If there are two or more units of Orcs..." The concept of a unit is confined to mass combat; man-to-man combat does not use it. Therefore this is describing a 1:20 idea. "There are giant Orcs which fight as Armored Foot..." is still in the realm of 1:20; they're from a tribe of huge Orcs, not a singular, freakishly large Orc. Heroes (and Anti-heroes): "The class being dependent on the arms and equipment of the Hero types themselves, who can range from Light Foot to Heavy Horse." If the argument that "Light Foot" and so on are there to give the referee an idea of how to equip them for man-to-man combat, we wouldn't be told that the class ("Light Foot," etc.) is dependent on arms and equipment—it'd be the other way round. This sentence is here because for mass combat we need to know which of the Combat Tables to roll on, and we are being told to determine that by considering the arms of the figure. "They are the last figure in a unit that will be killed by regular missile fire or melee, but they may be attacked individually by enemy troops of like type (such as other Hero-types) or creatures shown on the Fantasy Combat Table." In other words, they can't be targeted directly in mass combat by 1:20 figures until there are no other figures in the Hero's unit, but they can be targeted directly at any time by fantastic 1:1 figures using the Fantasy Combat Tables. Wizards...: "In normal combat, all this class will fight as two Armored Foot, or two Medium Horse if mounted, and Wizards can handle magical weaponry." "Normal combat" simply means non-fantastic combat, but is it mass combat or man-to-man combat? Relating their strength to Armored Foot or Medium Horse puts it squarely in the mass-combat category. There simply is no direct information on Wizards engaging in man-to-man combat, but there is such information for mass combat. 'Kay, gotta go do productive things now. More later.
|
|
|
Post by derv on Nov 15, 2013 21:30:58 GMT -6
0d&d refers to to men as heavy foot in the write up on bandits, does that mean there are no 1:1 bandits in 0d&d? Calling someone "heavy foot" is generic term, gygax didn't want to mandate all X men carry X weapons. Some could have chain mail and a mace, others could be in leather+shield+long sword, both could be called, "heavy foot." A wizard can have a "shield" spell and carry a "staff of striking" and be called "armored foot". They couldn't list an "armor class" because they didn't figure it out yet-- armor class wasn't invented, so how do you say a wizard is well armored? You call him "armored foot" and the referee can determine for himself how to conduct the battles. Most simply, mass combat on 1:1 scale or some reasonable interpretation of MtM. 1. We are not talking about OD&D. OD&D is a 1:1 system with the ACS. We are talking about Chainmail. OD&D did not exist when Chainmail was published. Troop types are not "generic" terms in Chainmail-especially when they have numeric values attatched to them (such as wizards being 2 AF). 2. As Stormcrow pointed out, the concept of Armor Class did exist in Chainmail. It's present on pg. 41. 3. I am not arguing whether or not you can use all the combat tables for 1:1. This is a moot point. 4. Look at the play report for "The Battle of the Moathouse" again. This battle used 1:10 scale (not my interpretation of it, it says so right at the beginning). The encounters I mentioned both involve 1:1 figures engaging 1:10 units. 5. Again, you are inferring something about scale that I am not saying. 6. I assume this is talking about mass combat because that is what Appendix A is called, "Combat Tables" (with a capital C and a capital T), and it is referring to 1:20 figures. Then it refers to the FCT by name when it is specifically talking about 1:1 figures. 7. This section is talking about elves with "magic weapons"-both bows(arrows) & swords. Just prior to this, it talks about invisible "troops". Really I'm not that invested in this magic weapon and armor debate because, as I've stated, I have not encountered it in play and have not given it much thought. I'm beginning to think you are not reading what I'm writing. The game was 1:10 scale. There were also 1:1 figures like the Treant and Superhero. Both encounters I mentioned involved combat between a 1:1 figure and 1:10 figures. This is the whole reason we started this discussion- because I used a 1:1 Hero and pitted him against 1:20 HF. If you tell me they broke the 1:10 units down to (10) 1:1 men, I'll think you're off your rocker. And we know by using the same line of argument that you have been handing me, that there was not 10 Commander Otis Superheroes nor 10 Treants. But the Superhero did have the fighting ability of 8 HF units and the Treant had the fighting ability of 6 AF
|
|
|
Post by cooper on Nov 15, 2013 22:22:02 GMT -6
For Pete's sake. The temple of elemental evil is a D&D adventure. For the love of all things good, why would you run a CHAINMAIL battle with an 8th level fighter with the attack prowress of 80 men.
You tell me not to make analogies with D&D and then give me a D&D battle supplemented by CHAINMAIL rules and then try and explain why an 8th level fighter kills 50 men per round.
|
|
|
Post by Stormcrow on Nov 16, 2013 0:23:16 GMT -6
"The Battle of the Moathouse" was purely a Chainmail game played by Gary Gygax, Jeff Perren, and friends. It was not a D&D battle supplemented with Chainmail rules.
|
|
|
Post by derv on Nov 16, 2013 13:46:41 GMT -6
I'm going to attempt to unravel the use of Magic Weapons/Armor in Chainmail. The following is my analysis outline from reading through the descriptions found on page 38 and the info pertaining to Elves on page 29. I have not come to any particular conclusions on the application of this info yet.
Page 38 A. Magic Weapons ~1. Can only be used by: ~~a. Elves ~~b. Heroes ~~c. Certain Magic User's- specifically "Wizards" ~2. These are all 1:1 scale figures
B. Enchanted Arrows ~1. Will always hit "normal's" ~~a. No roll required ~~b. Could be MtM or Mass Combat ~~~*In mass combat it could be a 1:1 figure firing on a 1:20 figure, not vice-versa. ~2. Elves are treated as "Hero-types" on the FCT ~3. Gives Heroes (& Supers) +1 pip on FCT against flying dragons ~~a. This is in addition to their normal +2 pips against flying dragons (see pg. 30 & 44) ~~b. Rangers would recieve an additional +1 pip (as Hero-type).
C. Magic Swords ~1. In "normal" combat they merely add a die. ~~a. The term "merely" begs the question of whether it is better to have an extra die or just +1 pip on any of the combat tables. ~~~1. On mass combat table +1 pip would increase probability of a kill by 16.7% ~~~2. On mass combat table an extra die would give between 16.7% to 50% greater chance of a kill depending on troop type. ~~~3. On MtM a +1 pip would raise probability of rolling beyond the bell curve of "7" ~~~4. On MtM an extra die would move the bell curve to "10-11" and give a range in excess of 12. ~~b. An extra die would seem to be better on either table. "Merely" appears like a poor choice of words and no indicator to application. ~2. On the FCT they give +1 pip. ~3. "Super Swords" give +2 or +3. ~~a. Does not say whether die or pips. ~~b. It could be assumed to be pips and still be talking about the FCT. ~~c. It could be either die or pips depending on who figure is fighting and what combat table is being used.
D. Magic Armor ~1. Subtracts one (pip) from opponents attack dice on FCT. ~*involving any 1:1 figure on FCT. ~2. Subtracts three (pips) on MtM opponents attack. ~~a. This would be "normal" combat ~~*involving any non-heroes (or any that are not listed on the FCT) attacking a 1:1 hero, elf, or wizard. ~3. There is no mention of mass combat tables. ~~*nor mention of adding or subtracting die
Page 29 E. Elves ~1. Armed with "magic weapons" ~~a. "Normal" combat ~~~1. add an extra die ~~~2. add 3 die vs. Goblins ~~~3. add 2 die vs. Orcs ~~b. "Fantastic" combat ~~~1. includes heroes, wizards, wraiths, wights, lycanthropes, ogres, balrogs, giants. ~~~~a. the target numbers are unique to the Elf for melee with these creatures on the FCT (they are not the same as a Hero-type) ~~~~b. does not mention adding +1 pip and could be assumed to be incorporated into target numbers. ~~~~c. does not say how an elf is to defend on the FCT (it is assumed he is treated as a Hero-type). ~~~2. does not include dragons, elementals, ents, rocs. ~~~3. begs the question of trolls & ghouls. ~~c. An elf is not the same as a "Hero" because of magic weapons. ~~* Nor does he become a "commander" ~~~1. he does not have all the benefits of a "Hero" such as: ~~~~a. Fighting ability of 4 men ~~~~b. Never checking morale ~~~~c. Adding a +1 to dice of his unit ~~~~d. Taking 4 "simultaneous" hits to kill. ~~~2. he might be considered a "leader" when armed with magic weapons (pg. 26) ~~~3. he would not be considered "normal" when armed with magic weapons. ~~~~a. he can fight on FCT in limited fashion. ~~~~b. he is treated as a Hero-type in a limited fashion. ~~~~~*use of enchanted arrows on FCT. ~~~~~*defense in melee with magic sword on FCT. ~2. Not armed with "magic weapons" ~~*considered "normal" figure (cannot fight on FCT) ~~a. Can perform split move as footmen ~~b. Can turn invisible ~~c. Can kill ogres with 3 hits instead of 6. ~~d. Can free wraith paralyzed troops by touch.
|
|
|
Post by cooper on Nov 16, 2013 14:58:55 GMT -6
Very through! I would say that under E. Elves
~2. ~~e. add 2 die vs. goblins ~~f. add 1 die. vs. orcs
(as the magic sword is subsumed in 1.2 and 1.3) That's my theory at least.
|
|