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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2013 19:03:09 GMT -6
Easy Solution:
"Okay, you can fight with daggers, but the bad guys always attack first."
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Post by Red Baron on Dec 20, 2013 21:09:28 GMT -6
Note also the "weapon class" from CHAINMAIL. So have ALL the bad guys use Maces, and then drop their Maces and switch to Hand Axes. The Mace is Class 3 vs a Dagger at Class 1, so the Bad Guys get first attack. Then, on the second round, a Hand Axe is class 2 to a Dagger Class 1, so first round is struck by "the side which struck the first blow previously." I bet the PCs get tired of ALWAYS going after the bad guys. Or for variety, use the Hit Chart from CHAINMAIL instead of D&D. Daggers suck. I was confused at first by the idea that outside of chainmail, it would seem to be to your advantage to have a shorter weapon as you are attacked once, then subsequently get two consecutive attacks. However, the dropping your weapon and drawing another makes this system work really well. Its like roman battle lines first throwing javelins, then closing with swords, then pulling out short swords and daggers at close quarters. It adds another good reason for fighters to have a whole armory on them if their going to need a pole arm, then a club, then a knife. It also forces the choice whether to spend a round sheathing your sword or spear, or just dropping it and pulling your dagger to attack that round.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2013 21:28:20 GMT -6
Yes; it makes historical practices work. That's the whole idea behind it.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2013 10:21:01 GMT -6
I was confused at first by the idea that outside of chainmail, it would seem to be to your advantage to have a shorter weapon as you are attacked once, then subsequently get two consecutive attacks. Yeah, having the longer weapon attack first and then alternating is probably the best way. Runequest 1/2e does it this way and I'm surprised that they switched to a more complicated system in their Legends line. The Romans would throw their javelins when out of contact, draw their swords and engage. They wouldn't switch weapons once engaged.
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Post by Porphyre on Dec 21, 2013 11:39:16 GMT -6
"1st Round: First blow is struck by — a) the attacker, unless b) the defender has a weapon which is two classes higher, or c) the defender is fighting from above (castle wall, rampart, etc.). This phrasing always made me wonder who is considered "the attacker" in a two-men combat: the first one to close in according to the movement rate?
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Merias
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Post by Merias on Dec 21, 2013 12:02:46 GMT -6
I didn't read the whole thread, so there's probably someone else who does it this way: small weapon = 1-5 damage (1d6-1) normal weapon = 1-6 damage (1d6) two-handed weapon = 2-7 damage (1d6+1) This may be the same as S&W White Box, I'm not sure, and fighting with 2 weapons is the same as a two-handed weapon. Yes, this is how S&W Whitebox does it, I like this too, as the +1 and -1 are in line with normally small OD&D bonuses/penalties, yet it still gives some variation.
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Post by sepulchre on Dec 21, 2013 12:07:48 GMT -6
porphyre77 wrote:
I believe it was a kind of unwritten rule that initiative the first round is determined by a d6...unless one of the combatants wields a weapon two classes higher or engages from higher ground.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2013 13:03:35 GMT -6
"1st Round: First blow is struck by — a) the attacker, unless b) the defender has a weapon which is two classes higher, or c) the defender is fighting from above (castle wall, rampart, etc.). This phrasing always made me wonder who is considered "the attacker" in a two-men combat: the first one to close in according to the movement rate? In CHAINMAIL, the attacker was the one who moved into contact. Unwritten assumption is that you're using move/countermove. I use the same rule in D&D.
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Post by Porphyre on Dec 21, 2013 13:22:46 GMT -6
This phrasing always made me wonder who is considered "the attacker" in a two-men combat: the first one to close in according to the movement rate? In CHAINMAIL, the attacker was the one who moved into contact. Unwritten assumption is that you're using move/countermove. I use the same rule in D&D. Sorry if I look a little thick, but how is the "move /countermove " you mention determined ? Is it the same think as the "roll-D6 higher score announces his actions last" intitative rules , or the "each side writes orders secretely and then adjudicate"?
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Post by sepulchre on Dec 21, 2013 13:43:48 GMT -6
porphyre77 wrote:
Gronan is right about movement, but 1st move is determined by d6: 'Both opponents roll a die; the side with the higher score has the choice of electing to move first (Move) or last (Counter-move) (9 Chnml)'.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2013 14:44:08 GMT -6
Right, roll dice to see who gets move/countermove. Sorry, I keep forgetting not everybody has most of CHAINMAIL memorized letter-perfect...
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Post by sepulchre on Dec 21, 2013 20:05:19 GMT -6
Not to worry, I am still very much a journeyman, and I owe much of that understanding to contributors here and at K&K. As for 'letter-perfect' it's more that the piece itself is organic enough that it takes quite a few read-throughs and then some, so one tries to form a sense of it so as not confuse oneself with what one thinks the authors intended and actually what they put to paper.
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Post by Porphyre on Dec 22, 2013 5:25:54 GMT -6
Sorry, I keep forgetting not everybody has most of CHAINMAIL memorized letter-perfect... Still working on it
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Post by simrion on Nov 5, 2023 6:51:50 GMT -6
Summarizing, longer weapons attack first on the first round, then smaller weapons attack first on subsequent rounds. There is a table which determines initiative from Judges Guild that is based on this concept. I like it very much. Sorry for the thread necromancy. I really like this initiative system, literally just stumbled on it while perusing the Ready Ref Sheets.
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Post by rustic313 on Nov 6, 2023 23:06:12 GMT -6
Yes, I use variable weapons, to a degree. - I do not use the greater damage vs. large creatures. - My monsters use 1d6 for hit dice. - I do not give +1 damage for high strength.
FIGHTER WEAPONS: - Light: 1d6 - 1H: 1d8 - 2H: 1d12 or 2d6-1
EVERYONE ELSE: - Light: 1d2 - 1H: 1d4 - 2H: 1d6
Weapons can trade off damage (typically a point, going down a die in size) for a special quality. Typical qualities: - Critical (axes): On a natural 20, deals +2d6 damage - Improvised (clubs/staves): Can be brought into or found in "weapons free zones" - Reach (polearms): Better vs. charging foes - Thrown: Can be hurled. Often add this in for "free" with another property on a light weapon. - Pierce (hammers) / costs -2 damage: +4 to hit - Missile: Weapon is a missile weapon.
I work in some of the chain-mailisms as well: - Play is always ATTACK then MOVE. An exception is charging, which has specific movement rules and may subject you to opportunity attacks (see below)... - Opportunity attacks are granted against foes CHARGING into melee if the defender (A) has a missile weapon, (B) has a 2H and longer weapon, or (C) has high ground. This models the CM "hurl missiles before melee" or "long weapons strike first blow in first round." Because the sequence of play is strictly ATTACK then MOVE, if a player ops to carefully move into melee instead of charging, they avoid the opportunity attack but also may miss out on striking a blow themselves. - When parrying, if the foe misses due to the parry and your weapon is smaller, you strike as a free riposte. If you have a light weapon and your foe has a 1H weapon, then parrying is actually a pretty good idea. - Having a large 2H weapon to hand gives a penalty to initiative. This makes the light weapons more likely to go first (although those long weapons get that first strike opportunity attack ability).
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ DISCUSSION BELOW:
Axe Example: A 1H battle axe for a fighter does 1d6 damage with the "critical" property. Normally 1H fighter weapons deal 1d8, but the axe trades down a dice for a special property. That critical turns 5% of dice rolls or about 15% of hits into critical hits that deal +7 damage. As an example, a fighter that needs to roll a 14 to hit deals 1.575 DPR with a 1d8 weapon, but they'll deal 1.4 DPR with the axe. If the fighter needs to roll a 17 to hit, they deal 0.9 DPR with a 1d8 weapon but 1.025 with the axe. As the foe's AC improves the axe should be mechanically superior, modelling the historic use of axes to crack hard targets. Some players also like the "swingy" overkill of critting. I don't have any other crit rules.
Damage Discussion Using a Longsword and a Mace: - Per Greyhawk and B/X, a Longsword should do 1d8 damage and a mace 1d6 damage. - If you use Gary's table rules or are B/X inspired (fighters do +1 damage if they have decent STR... perhaps even +2!), then the longsword does 1d8+1; the cleric still does 1d6 with a mace. You could also model that by upping all the damage dice on the fighter weapons by a step and getting rid of the +1, assuming that fighters should be strong. I play with young kids and the less math at the table the faster things go (true with adults too I think!), and it really does speed play to just bake as many modifiers as possible into a bigger damage die. I let fighters deal +1 damage with the "simple" weapons so that if they happen to get a magic mace they can use it without penalty. - If you stick with D6 monster HD vs. the Greyhawk Sup/BX directed monster upgrade to 1d8 HD, then all weapon damage should basically go down one step to compensate. That means our longsword clicks back down to 1d8, and our mace clicks down to 1d4.
2H Weapons: - I give +2 AC for a shield, much like 5E. - I also require high STR to wield the bigger/better fighter 2H weapons (15+), STR that would give +2 damage in B/X. - Thus, the 2H fighter weapons get an extra damage die step boost.
If you REALLY want the baseline simple 1H weapon to do 1d6 damage, then you can up all of my damage dice up one step... Then your monsters need to either roll 1d8 for HP or 1d6+1 for HP.
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Post by jamesmishler on Nov 7, 2023 1:01:16 GMT -6
I just started running a house ruled OD&D campaign.
One handed weapons deals 1d6. Most two handed weapons deal 2d6 (all but quarterstaff).
Most weapons have a one handed, versatile, and two handed variety.
Versatile meaning they can be welded one or two handed, as per in 5E.
Generally only fighters can use two handed weapons, with some exceptions.
Fighters (but not paladins or rangers) roll 2d6 for one handed weapons, taking the best roll, and 3d6 for two handed weapons, taking the best two rolls.
I use a different ability score modifier set. 3-8 -1, 9-12 0, 13-15 +1, 16-17 +2, 18 +3. Abilities are rolled using 3d6, no modifiers.
My Critical Hit system is stitched together from EPT and Powers & Perils. Nat 20 is a crit, roll d20 again, on another 20 instant death, though 5 HD and greater get a save, if successful instead suffer normal crit damage.
Otherwise, add 1 plus STR (melee) or DEX (missile) bonus d6s to damage, plus level in hp if a fighter. STR 18 (+3) means roll and additional 4d6 damage (total 5d6 if one handed, 6d6 if two handed). Fighters still get to roll an additional die and take the best rolls. A 10th level fighter with an 18 STR deals 5d6+10 on a crit with a normal sword.
Initiative is d6 by group. Declare spellcasting before initiative. First winners move and act/attack, then losers, and I determine order within each group based on position, DEX, and circumstance who goes when on each turn, 2H weapon wielders usually go last in their sides turn. Spellcasters always go last, after both sides move and act/attack, first winning side, then losing side. It's often a bit chaotic and shifts with the action.
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Post by dicebro on Nov 9, 2023 6:58:25 GMT -6
Every time
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