Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2013 16:17:38 GMT -6
@cameron - Have you shared yours anyplace? I don't recall ever seeing it. I haven't shared them online, yet. Mostly because in the form I printed for private use I've sort of "borrowed" a lot of art. Perhaps I will expunge the art and release the material some day. |
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Post by aher on Feb 25, 2013 21:16:31 GMT -6
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Post by jakdethe on Feb 25, 2013 21:25:15 GMT -6
Thanks I'll check it out right now. Exactly the kind of stuff I'm looking for.
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Post by jeffb on Feb 26, 2013 6:25:18 GMT -6
Sorry if my post came off terse. I guess it was ust some thoughts rolling around in my head lately as I have converted my game to a few different D&D's and PF over the past 18 months. SYSTEM OVERLOAD.
I welcome all versions, and everyones house rules, just am not likely to purchase any more "versions" of OD&D, as I already have prints of two versions of SWWB, SWcore, SWcomp, 2 copies Moldvay, 2 copies Cook/Marsh, LL,, Mentzer,BFRPG, Spellcraft & Swordplay, etc etc. Then there is the stuff I have on PDF...and AD&D books, and 2 e, and and and.
Hope that makes more sense.
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Koren n'Rhys
Level 6 Magician
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Post by Koren n'Rhys on Feb 26, 2013 12:00:43 GMT -6
I haven't shared them online, yet. Mostly because in the form I printed for private use I've sort of "borrowed" a lot of art. Perhaps I will expunge the art and release the material some day. Fair enough. I think there are quite a few of us in the same boat. We've got a cool booklet or house-rule doc of some kind for our home players, but can't legally share it online since it chick full of copyrighted goodness! It's the finding time to re-write it to be OGL that gets troublesome. |
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Post by jakdethe on Feb 26, 2013 13:47:54 GMT -6
Sorry if my post came off terse. I guess it was ust some thoughts rolling around in my head lately as I have converted my game to a few different D&D's and PF over the past 18 months. SYSTEM OVERLOAD. I welcome all versions, and everyones house rules, just am not likely to purchase any more "versions" of OD&D, as I already have prints of two versions of SWWB, SWcore, SWcomp, 2 copies Moldvay, 2 copies Cook/Marsh, LL,, Mentzer,BFRPG, Spellcraft & Swordplay, etc etc. Then there is the stuff I have on PDF...and AD&D books, and 2 e, and and and. Hope that makes more sense. Not at all, I share the same sentiments as both of your posts. That's why I'm doing this; I'm tired of having so many different books, with all of the information spread out. Furthermore I find that 1% of stuff interesting, and the 5% stuff in official D&D editions; so I'm putting it all in one place for myself. Just because I figure I'll share I'm going to release the final product. For people like you and I though, who have too many books already, I'll be releasing a "Companion" with just the 1% differences. |
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mythmere
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
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Post by mythmere on Feb 26, 2013 16:20:29 GMT -6
To address the defense of Matt really quickly: I understand and agree. It's always nice to get new copies. But what else has been release for S&W? Since the merger with Frog God games we were promised new material, and what meaningful releases have we gotten? What supplements are the community praising, discussing, or even criticizing? Here's the webpage for Frog God Games - I think that everything except Eamonvale, Demonheart, Slumbering Tsar, and Usual Suspects has a Swords & Wizardry version alongside the Pathfinder version. www.talesofthefroggod.com/products.htmlI'd estimate that there are at least 25 products, some of which, like Rappan Athuk and Tome of Horrors, are really huge books. Several of the links on that page are to a whole series of modules. Swords & Wizardry is doing a really good job of reaching out to mainstream gamers and introducing them to the old school style. The Kickstarter was something like $78,000, IIRC. That amount of money was utterly unthinkable in 2008, when we started the project. I don't think the rules get much discussion here except in terms of when it's used as the base for something else, like Ruins & Ronin, Woodland Warriors, Crypts & Things, etc. It's used a lot for new games. Here at ODD74, even if one is using the Swords & Wizardry books as table copies, you're going to talk on the message board in terms of OD&D, not the clone. S&W is a clone, not a newer twist like LotFP, where there's a separate personality in the rule set. Since it's a clone of OD&D, the more transparent it is to the discussion, the more successful. Anyway, there is a ton of new material. |
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Post by jeffb on Feb 28, 2013 8:18:29 GMT -6
Sorry if my post came off terse. I guess it was ust some thoughts rolling around in my head lately as I have converted my game to a few different D&D's and PF over the past 18 months. SYSTEM OVERLOAD. I welcome all versions, and everyones house rules, just am not likely to purchase any more "versions" of OD&D, as I already have prints of two versions of SWWB, SWcore, SWcomp, 2 copies Moldvay, 2 copies Cook/Marsh, LL,, Mentzer,BFRPG, Spellcraft & Swordplay, etc etc. Then there is the stuff I have on PDF...and AD&D books, and 2 e, and and and. Hope that makes more sense. Not at all, I share the same sentiments as both of your posts. That's why I'm doing this; I'm tired of having so many different books, with all of the information spread out. Furthermore I find that 1% of stuff interesting, and the 5% stuff in official D&D editions; so I'm putting it all in one place for myself. Just because I figure I'll share I'm going to release the final product. For people like you and I though, who have too many books already, I'll be releasing a "Companion" with just the 1% differences. Cool deal, looking forward to it!  |
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Post by jakdethe on Feb 28, 2013 10:25:49 GMT -6
Since the most positive feedback seems to be for the "Companion" product I've been talking about, I'll go ahead and take a small break from the three core rule books, and release a "beta" version of the companion.
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Koren n'Rhys
Level 6 Magician
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Post by Koren n'Rhys on Mar 1, 2013 13:47:41 GMT -6
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Post by jakdethe on Mar 1, 2013 18:34:07 GMT -6
Thanks this will prove very useful!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2013 19:16:11 GMT -6
Well, inspired by the level of sharing inherent in this forum? I'm editing my house rules (removing most of the art) and will share them on this forum. Perhaps in the open, or at least in dark places under the radar. Not yet, but soon.
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Koren n'Rhys
Level 6 Magician
Got your mirrorshades?
Posts: 355
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Post by Koren n'Rhys on Mar 1, 2013 20:30:09 GMT -6
I'm working through the Free RPG posts, and need to re-read these myself. The fun of this hobby is in the sharing, and I need to try to do more myself. Looking forward to whatever you put out, Cameron. You've got a great track record. :-)
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mythmere
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
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Post by mythmere on Mar 2, 2013 9:51:19 GMT -6
what else has been release for S&W? Since the merger with Frog God games we were promised new material, and what meaningful releases have we gotten? I forgot, and should mention -- in addition to all the Frog God modules and S&W sourcebooks, I should mention third party publishers. Pacesetter Games also recently did a Swords & Wizardry module, which is here: pacesettergames.com/q3deonsiissw.htmlI would (and will) bring up Tim Shorts module Knowledge Illuminates, which is probably before the time period you're asking about, but I think third party material is often the most interesting -- Knowledge Illuminates is here: gothridgemanorgames.blogspot.com/p/gm-games-store.html.
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Post by jakdethe on Mar 2, 2013 11:09:23 GMT -6
what else has been release for S&W? Since the merger with Frog God games we were promised new material, and what meaningful releases have we gotten? I forgot, and should mention -- in addition to all the Frog God modules and S&W sourcebooks, I should mention third party publishers. Pacesetter Games also recently did a Swords & Wizardry module, which is here: pacesettergames.com/q3deonsiissw.htmlI would (and will) bring up Tim Shorts module Knowledge Illuminates, which is probably before the time period you're asking about, but I think third party material is often the most interesting -- Knowledge Illuminates is here: gothridgemanorgames.blogspot.com/p/gm-games-store.html. I'm not trying to criticize S&W, Froggod Games, or your efforts. Modules are great and all, and I'm sure I'm in the minority here, but what practical resources are there for Sandbox DMs? I ask in earnest, because I'm sure there are some. And while I love Tome of Horrors, and Raphun Attuk, they are books that are far too expensive for most people, and far to large to use at the gaming table, where most Sandbox DMs need their resources. I'd love to see some reasonable monster books in the 100 - 200pg area, that cost under $50. Pathfinder's Beastiaries are 300pg, full color books, for $40 retail, $27 at amazon right now. |
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mythmere
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
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Post by mythmere on Mar 2, 2013 12:28:48 GMT -6
what practical resources are there for Sandbox DMs? I ask in earnest, because I'm sure there are some. For Swords & Wizardry's sandbox-type material, you might want to look at Tome of Adventure Design (http://talesofthefroggod.com/tome-of-adventurer.html) which is only $42 in stitched signature hardcover, like the old AD&D books. It's almost entirely tables for generating sandbox material. Also, in terms of plug-in hex crawls, probably the six Hex Crawl installments by John Stater are ideal (http://talesofthefroggod.com/hex.html). These are the Valley of Hawks, the Winter Woods, Beyond the Black Water, The Shattered Empire, the Pirate Coast, and the Troll Hills. More are coming, but these are the ones in print so far. The print copies are $9.99 each. In terms of sandboxery, from the description of the first in that series: "What a hex crawl is, literally, is a wilderness sandbox of areas, encounters and villages that players travel around in. It provides no story line, just hundreds of story hooks and possibilities. The Valley of Hawks is a wooded river valley that cuts across a verdant prairie.... " So those are fairly useful if you're looking for plug-and-play sandbox areas rather than a generation resource like Tome of Adventure Design. Definitely. As a matter of economics, we don't have print run sizes that can produce a full color book for $27, or even $42. Pathfinder has print runs of tens of thousands. Their unit cost is probably 20% of ours or even less since our binding is library quality. I don't think you will find full color anywhere in the OSR for that reason (other than our Razor Coast book, but that's an aberration for various reasons). You might check out Monsters of Myth (FES) and Malevolent and Benign (from Expeditious Retreat). Those are both in the lower price range (B/W interiors), and are both for OSRIC, not Swords & Wizardry. -- I'm not trying to sound like a commercial for Swords & Wizardry, it's just that it's the particular clone you focused on for criticism, and I don't think the critique was valid. All that aside, I'm totally pumped to hear that you're working on a new clone. I love the variety, I'm definitely not in the "Stop Clones" party. I look forward to seeing the progress on it. |
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Post by jakdethe on Mar 2, 2013 12:37:15 GMT -6
what practical resources are there for Sandbox DMs? I ask in earnest, because I'm sure there are some. For Swords & Wizardry's sandbox-type material, you might want to look at Tome of Adventure Design (http://talesofthefroggod.com/tome-of-adventurer.html) which is only $42 in stitched signature hardcover, like the old AD&D books. It's almost entirely tables for generating sandbox material. Also, in terms of plug-in hex crawls, probably the six Hex Crawl installments by John Stater are ideal (http://talesofthefroggod.com/hex.html). These are the Valley of Hawks, the Winter Woods, Beyond the Black Water, The Shattered Empire, the Pirate Coast, and the Troll Hills. More are coming, but these are the ones in print so far. The print copies are $9.99 each. In terms of sandboxery, from the description of the first in that series: "What a hex crawl is, literally, is a wilderness sandbox of areas, encounters and villages that players travel around in. It provides no story line, just hundreds of story hooks and possibilities. The Valley of Hawks is a wooded river valley that cuts across a verdant prairie.... " So those are fairly useful if you're looking for plug-and-play sandbox areas rather than a generation resource like Tome of Adventure Design. Definitely. As a matter of economics, we don't have print run sizes that can produce a full color book for $27, or even $42. Pathfinder has print runs of tens of thousands. Their unit cost is probably 20% of ours or even less since our binding is library quality. I don't think you will find full color anywhere in the OSR for that reason (other than our Razor Coast book, but that's an aberration for various reasons). You might check out Monsters of Myth (FES) and Malevolent and Benign (from Expeditious Retreat). Those are both in the lower price range (B/W interiors), and are both for OSRIC, not Swords & Wizardry. -- I'm not trying to sound like a commercial for Swords & Wizardry, it's just that it's the particular clone you focused on for criticism, and I don't think the critique was valid. All that aside, I'm totally pumped to hear that you're working on a new clone. I love the variety, I'm definitely not in the "Stop Clones" party. I look forward to seeing the progress on it. First off thanks for the well wishes. Second the full color comment wasn't a wish (prefer B/W), more of a comparison. And I wasn't by any means trying to pick on S&W, it's just the clone I'm most familiar with, and if anything my posts should be more or less read as: "I'd love to have more S&W stuff I can use", and not as mindless criticizing. That aside I appreciate the recommendations and will be checking them. Since you're on here, as a quick question to you personally; Would you rather see another "Swords & Wizardry Compatible" product, or something that stands on its own? As of right now I'm working on making it a completely independent system, and am thus no longer S&W as a base document. But if you have a good reason for keeping it as a S&W product, I'd love to hear it. |
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mythmere
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Posts: 293
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Post by mythmere on Mar 2, 2013 13:28:30 GMT -6
I think it depends on what you want to do, and especially if you're doing it primarily for your own gaming group or primarily as a resource for the wider community. Both are totally valid goals, in my opinion, although "for the community" seems to have fallen into disfavor -- but I, as one example, like publishing and arranging books not just because of the content, but because I like making books as an (almost) independent hobby. So, I don't think it's a presumptuous or a self-aggrandizing thing to publish something you've done a lot of work on. Whether or not many people will use it, these materials are like art. Don't ever let someone's opinion hold you back on it.
If it is purely for your gaming table, with the expectation of releasing it in general as a totally secondary goal, then I would definitely go with the compilation. Give your players the entire book. Go totally to town, and use art from the internet, whatever you need to make it perfect. Then remove the copyrighted stuff for the net version, of course.
If it is primarily for the community, then you have to think about what those people will want, and what they will use. Some hard decisions have to be made -- for example, I would have liked to split Rappan Athuk into a couple of volumes for easier use, but you'll find that binding is the major portion of the cost of a book, and it is much cheaper to give the buyer more pages than a second book.
I always want to see more material for Swords & Wizardry -- it has already spawned Crypts & Things, Woodland Warriors, Ruins & Ronin, and Hideouts & Hoodlums. It's a good starting point (especially to cut and paste blocks of typing where things aren't changed, if nothing else).
There's also the matter of being proud of what you produce, which is the ultimate test. If you're prouder of an independent system, then NEVER alter that. Pride in your work is the absolute be-all-and-end-all of why one does this. People will inevitably show up and complain about your work, and you have to never let that get to you ... and the way to do that is to have not compromised your vision of it. You (and your players) must be the measure of your task, not the public at large. There is nothing more rewarding than sitting back and saying, "I made that, and it is good in my opinion."
That's why I wish you luck so strongly on this -- those of us who write resources, whether it's games, or modules, or maps, or art, or geomorphs, or blogs -- whatever it is -- are builders. The net is filled with people who are complainers and destroyers -- FILLED with them, as you will discover. Those of us who are ultimately builders and creators need to stick together and support each other.
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Post by jakdethe on Mar 2, 2013 14:03:36 GMT -6
I think it depends on what you want to do, and especially if you're doing it primarily for your own gaming group or primarily as a resource for the wider community. Both are totally valid goals, in my opinion, although "for the community" seems to have fallen into disfavor -- but I, as one example, like publishing and arranging books not just because of the content, but because I like making books as an (almost) independent hobby. So, I don't think it's a presumptuous or a self-aggrandizing thing to publish something you've done a lot of work on. Whether or not many people will use it, these materials are like art. Don't ever let someone's opinion hold you back on it. If it is purely for your gaming table, with the expectation of releasing it in general as a totally secondary goal, then I would definitely go with the compilation. Give your players the entire book. Go totally to town, and use art from the internet, whatever you need to make it perfect. Then remove the copyrighted stuff for the net version, of course. If it is primarily for the community, then you have to think about what those people will want, and what they will use. Some hard decisions have to be made -- for example, I would have liked to split Rappan Athuk into a couple of volumes for easier use, but you'll find that binding is the major portion of the cost of a book, and it is much cheaper to give the buyer more pages than a second book. I always want to see more material for Swords & Wizardry -- it has already spawned Crypts & Things, Woodland Warriors, Ruins & Ronin, and Hideouts & Hoodlums. It's a good starting point (especially to cut and paste blocks of typing where things aren't changed, if nothing else). There's also the matter of being proud of what you produce, which is the ultimate test. If you're prouder of an independent system, then NEVER alter that. Pride in your work is the absolute be-all-and-end-all of why one does this. People will inevitably show up and complain about your work, and you have to never let that get to you ... and the way to do that is to have not compromised your vision of it. You (and your players) must be the measure of your task, not the public at large. There is nothing more rewarding than sitting back and saying, "I made that, and it is good in my opinion." That's why I wish you luck so strongly on this -- those of us who write resources, whether it's games, or modules, or maps, or art, or geomorphs, or blogs -- whatever it is -- are builders. The net is filled with people who are complainers and destroyers -- FILLED with them, as you will discover. Those of us who are ultimately builders and creators need to stick together and support each other. Truly profound words of wisdom, and this is why I miss your blog! I really appreciate the positive feedback and words of inspiration, as you said, there is often too much negativity. I think for now I'll definitely take your advice, and go with independent, as my main goal is personal use. I must also say I share you exact same view on writing books. I don't get to play nearly as much as I would like to, and this gives me a secondary hobby, still tied in with RPGs. |
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Post by geoffrey on Mar 2, 2013 14:08:37 GMT -6
I don't think you will find full color anywhere in the OSR for that reason (other than our Razor Coast book, but that's an aberration for various reasons). My Dungeon of the Unknown is a 125-page hardback with a full-color cover and with 122ish full-color interior illustrations. The publisher sells it for 22 Euro (which is about $28.65), and nobleknight sells it for $27.95. Mythmere also wrote: That's why I wish you luck so strongly on this -- those of us who write resources, whether it's games, or modules, or maps, or art, or geomorphs, or blogs -- whatever it is -- are builders. The net is filled with people who are complainers and destroyers -- FILLED with them, as you will discover. Those of us who are ultimately builders and creators need to stick together and support each other. Well said. |
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Post by Mike on Mar 10, 2013 5:29:13 GMT -6
I lurve Delving Deeper it's awesome; so let me state right off that your nethers may well rot and drop off for saying otherwise. However, unlike most here I believe there's always room for one more set of house rules; and if those house rules happen to be wrapped up as a complete game, I say hurrah!
Redemption for your nethers? Maybe...
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Post by Vile Traveller on Mar 10, 2013 8:50:38 GMT -6
The net is filled with people who are complainers and destroyers -- FILLED with them, as you will discover. Those of us who are ultimately builders and creators need to stick together and support each other. Hear, hear! ;D |
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