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Post by geoffrey on Mar 18, 2015 17:30:56 GMT -6
Suppose I was a player in a D&D campaign that allowed me to pick my scores, or roll 4d6, or arrange scores to taste, etc. You know what I'd do? I'd roll 3d6 in order, set in stone. iIn OD&D absolutely, but what if you're playing a system where modifiers mean far different things? Try doing that in AD&D or 3.x or whatever. Yes it's possible/playable, but if all the others are generating with an advantage you'll get left behind. I personally don't enjoy playing a comparitively underpowered character, especially if the campaign has any kind of longevity. I'd still roll 3d6 in order, set in stone. Then I'd do my best to play smarter than everyone else. A smart guy playing a PC with crappy ability scores will fare better in the Tomb of Horrors than will a not-so-smart guy playing a PC with all 18s.
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Post by talysman on Mar 18, 2015 17:40:53 GMT -6
If players can choose their ability scores, then maybe invert XP bonuses/penalties due to prime requisites? Maybe also include the secondary/tertiary ability score contributions to prime requisiste score... that way, at least, high scores are not all upside, and low scores are not all downside Hmmm... I once wrote up some classes that did this, frex the Tourist class earns extra experience for low Wisdom. So it's a tempting idea.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2015 19:46:57 GMT -6
Suppose I was a player in a D&D campaign that allowed me to pick my scores, or roll 4d6, or arrange scores to taste, etc. You know what I'd do? I'd roll 3d6 in order, set in stone. When playing a new game that requires decisions during character creation, I will often roll dice to expedite the process.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2015 19:48:52 GMT -6
I personally don't enjoy playing a comparitively underpowered character, especially if the campaign has any kind of longevity. Personally, I do enjoy playing underpowered characters. To each his own.
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Post by rastusburne on Mar 18, 2015 21:05:54 GMT -6
iIn OD&D absolutely, but what if you're playing a system where modifiers mean far different things? Try doing that in AD&D or 3.x or whatever. Yes it's possible/playable, but if all the others are generating with an advantage you'll get left behind. I personally don't enjoy playing a comparitively underpowered character, especially if the campaign has any kind of longevity. I'd still roll 3d6 in order, set in stone. Then I'd do my best to play smarter than everyone else. A smart guy playing a PC with crappy ability scores will fare better in the Tomb of Horrors than will a not-so-smart guy playing a PC with all 18s. Fair enough
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Post by rastusburne on Mar 18, 2015 21:11:55 GMT -6
I personally don't enjoy playing a comparitively underpowered character, especially if the campaign has any kind of longevity. Personally, I do enjoy playing underpowered characters. To each his own. That's fine, I'm interested if you can provide a context though. If the whole campaign is 'underpowered' (as in playing OD&D compared with 4e) then I'm more than happy with that - everyone's on a relatively even playing field. But if I'm playing in a game with higher modifiers, and compared with everyone else my character is far weaker (struggles to hit anything, poor spells, etc) then I don't find that fun at all. If you meant the latter 'to each his own' indeed! I can understand the challenge of it, and why that may be fun, but that seems like a temporal enjoyment rather than for a long-term campaign. Or am I missing something?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2015 21:23:24 GMT -6
I'm perfectly happy playing a character comparably weaker than other party members, and have a penchant for doing so. Whether that means an OD&D character with a single hit point, or a D20 character with deliberately suboptimal character build.
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Post by waysoftheearth on Mar 19, 2015 2:34:06 GMT -6
As a player it can also be fun trying to read the ability scores you're given to figure what kind of character they imply. E.g., Mushgnome rolled me up some numbers last year for pbp game here, and handed me: 7, 7, 9, 8, 7, 10. I was a bit stumped, until I clicked that these scores were perfect for a street-urchin/boy-thief type. Once I realised that Lupe Royce was a perfectly fun character, and while I remembered well that he had child-like ability scores, I forgot all about the actual numbers (which is very easy to do in a PBP)
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Post by waysoftheearth on Mar 19, 2015 4:02:44 GMT -6
A couple of other options I've toyed with are:
Best of Both Worlds: Roll seven lots of 3d6, in order. The player then chooses which roll is for gold, leaving the six other throws of 3d6, in order, for his stats. This gives the player an interesting choice to make without sacrificing the classic random element.
Evil Twin: Roll six lots of 3d6, in order. These are your stats as normal. UNLESS you invert the full set of scores (subtracting each from 21) and play your evil twin. This means players can always have stats in the "high" half of the normal distribution without messing with the random element.
Optional Twist: If used, the "evil twin PC" can never be neutral. If he is chaotic then the ref should fully observe EGG's comments about chaotic aligned players (GH p7). If he is lawful, then the original stats are for the PC's literal evil twin in the game; an NPC nemesis he can't be rid of. E.g. Caramon and Raistlin, Arnie and Danny DeVito, ...
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Post by Mushgnome on Mar 19, 2015 7:04:05 GMT -6
As a player it can also be fun trying to read the ability scores you're given to figure what kind of character they imply. E.g., Mushgnome rolled me up some numbers last year for pbp game here, and handed me: 7, 7, 9, 8, 7, 10. I was a bit stumped, until I clicked that these scores were perfect for a street-urchin/boy-thief type. Once I realised that Lupe Royce was a perfectly fun character, and while I remembered well that he had child-like ability scores, I forgot all about the actual numbers (which is very easy to do in a PBP) If I recall correctly, I also rolled 1 hit point for that character. I was psyched it was you, ways, because I knew you could handle it as a player!
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Post by cooper on Mar 19, 2015 9:10:54 GMT -6
A wizard with a 13 int and a robe of stars+staff of power is more powerful than a wizard with an 18 int and two scrolls of detect magic. A fighter with a 12 strength with the sword of Kaz and platemail of etherialness is more powerful than a fighter with an 18/99 strength. I get the impression that so few groups actually use Magic items, I mean real magic items, that they compensate with high stats and then say they don't like "low powered" campaigns .
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Post by rastusburne on Mar 19, 2015 14:14:00 GMT -6
I'm perfectly happy playing a character comparably weaker than other party members, and have a penchant for doing so. Whether that means an OD&D character with a single hit point, or a D20 character with deliberately suboptimal character build. Ahh okay, thanks for clarifying.
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Post by waysoftheearth on Mar 20, 2015 0:15:06 GMT -6
I also rolled 1 hit point for that character. I forget about that too Dang, makofan just rolled me a 1 hit point for another 1st level PC too. What am I doing wrong??
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Post by Scott Anderson on Mar 20, 2015 1:11:55 GMT -6
In Franks game here, I am having a blast with Ruby. 4 WIS, 4 CON, 1 hit point.
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Post by makofan on Mar 20, 2015 8:16:04 GMT -6
I find that, wile I enjoy maximum hit points, a 1 hit point character is freeing. You know he's going to die, so you stop worrying and start enjoying the game.
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Post by Scott Anderson on Mar 20, 2015 8:25:05 GMT -6
The character doesn't know he has one hit point! Nor does he know he is really dumb or foolish. He probably knows he's a weakling, or clumsy, or out of shape, or ineffective in interpersonal communication.
Certainly he knows what his equipment does (unless it is magical) and what his bank balance is.
Well, this is a little far afield. My point is, some stats inform the player and some inform the character.
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Post by tetramorph on Mar 20, 2015 11:28:17 GMT -6
My point is, some stats inform the player and some inform the character. Well said. I never really articulated that fact to myself so clearly. That is a really clear, succinct way of putting it. That helps. I'm going to share this with my group at our next session! Thanks.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2015 18:11:22 GMT -6
I find that, wile I enjoy maximum hit points, a 1 hit point character is freeing. You know he's going to die, so you stop worrying and start enjoying the game. Nonsense. My entire motivation behind a 1 HP character would be to make him survive to name level. There are no bad characters, there are only bad players. In our Star Wars campaign my Jedi had only one stat over 12, but he became the greatest Jedi in the galaxy because I played him like the greatest Jedi in the galaxy.
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bycrom
Level 3 Conjurer
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Post by bycrom on Aug 24, 2015 22:07:54 GMT -6
3d6 in order by Crom! Then any die showing a '1' is re-rolled. The lowest score possible is 6, average is 11 (iirc), high scores still rare. I think Finarvyn put this up on the site before and it has worked well in B/X at my table.
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Post by talysman on Aug 25, 2015 10:26:30 GMT -6
3d6 in order by Crom! Then any die showing a '1' is re-rolled. The lowest score possible is 6, average is 11 (iirc), high scores still rare. I think Finarvyn put this up on the site before and it has worked well in B/X at my table. I can get behind 3d6 in order, but not the reroll 1s. The point I was getting at when I started the thread was that, if you are going to do something to minimize or eliminate certain numbers, you might as well just let people pick their scores and not worry about the mechanics used to get that score. This ties into the current thread about "no-numbers OD&D". My ideal is to avoid having players focus on numbers and think about what's happening in the fantasy world. That includes not thinking about how to get the best ability scores. Anything other than a straight roll for stats vs. just picking the numbers you want is drawing too much attention to the game system and drawing attention away from Groolag the Warrior Troll and what he wants to do in the Lokarian Borderlands. And sure, if a player wants to avoid certain score ranges, but doesn't want total freedom, "just pick" could include any dice or point-buy mechanic the player can imagine... but the GM shouldn't be enforcing or suggesting specific methods, and should be discouraging worrying about the numbers as much as possible. The GM's job is to get people's heads out of the game system and into the game world.
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Torreny
Level 4 Theurgist
Is this thing on?
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Post by Torreny on Aug 25, 2015 10:40:48 GMT -6
In more modern games with giant heaps of modifers/bonuses from stats, by all means it's to be rolled in front of me. Things like older D&D, Metamorphosis Alpha and the like though, if the players "cheat" their stats, I could care less. Those ones usually are the sort to get their characters killed frequently any way.
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bycrom
Level 3 Conjurer
Posts: 90
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Post by bycrom on Aug 25, 2015 21:09:16 GMT -6
Talysman, if playing OD&D 3LBB with it's puny modifiers just get rid of them completely, by Crom! Drop in a Traits system from Pendragon like 'Balrogs and Bagginses' did and PC's live with the class powers they level into and rock out in the new old school. Disembowlments all around for any player protests... like the Kazak dogs they are!
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