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Post by rossik on Sept 16, 2012 18:47:29 GMT -6
(hope im posting at the right place!)
friends, i was wondering how do you DM dungeons crawls, in the "mapping aspect".
i mean, do you describe the rooms, corridor and such by measure (a 3x3 room with...) and the mapper goes..mapping;
or you do the map as the PCs advance in scenario?
and then? what if the map is wrong? do you help the players?
how do you handle mapping and gaming?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2012 19:18:42 GMT -6
I describe what the PCs can perceive. If the mapper makes gross errors in drawing what I've described, I'll reword it for another try. If the error is due to a trick (teleporters, distance distortion corridors, elevator rooms, etc.)? It's up to them to figure it out.
Mapping is the player's responsibility. If they don't keep a map they'd best be able to describe the route they intend to take out of the dungeon.
If they lose their map "in game" I will confiscate their map at the table, too.
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Post by Sean Michael Kelly on Sept 16, 2012 19:25:18 GMT -6
(hope im posting at the right place!) friends, i was wondering how do you DM dungeons crawls, in the "mapping aspect". i mean, do you describe the rooms, corridor and such by measure (a 3x3 room with...) and the mapper goes..mapping; or you do the map as the PCs advance in scenario? and then? what if the map is wrong? do you help the players? how do you handle mapping and gaming? Bottom Line (for me): It depends. If I'm gaming with younger kids involved and there's a heavier reliance on miniatures, I may actually draw out the map myself on a laminated dry-erase Paizo battle mat. (I usually just use the generic "blank" ones) Last night for the first "Delving Deeper" game session, it was a combination of me describing the dimensions, etc, but the player "mapper" would draw the mat according to my descriptions. I usually allowed it to be wrong, unless I just described something faulty. This kind of gave it a "best of both worlds" appeal. My first time doing this, and I liked the way it worked out. Some games may be completely devoid of any miniatures and be completely paper/pencil... others may be almost "Chainmail" like in miniature/mass battles. Younger or more hyper-active kids need the tangibility of the miniatures often times. I'll even kick-up the tactile-ness of the session by using wooden "Jenga" blocks to "map out" the dungeon/town/etc. I've bought multiple used sets of at thrift stores for pennies on the dollar. I have an education/training background.... actually, my gaming background forged the former, but I adapt how I referee a game by the needs of the players. There are times, logistically, that limits just by the actual environment used.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2012 19:28:09 GMT -6
Passage runs east.
"We go east."
Ten feet, twenty feet, thirty feet east. East ends, north or south.
"We go south."
Ten feet south, door to the south, passage ends.
"We open the door"
(check to see if door opens)
Door opens.
"We look in and around carefully".
Twenty by thirty foot room to the south and east. Passage east in the middle of the east wall.
```````````````````````````````
Which is the way Gary used to do it.
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Post by Sean Michael Kelly on Sept 16, 2012 19:35:03 GMT -6
Here's a picture of what I was writing about... Attachments:
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Post by talysman on Sept 16, 2012 21:05:25 GMT -6
I mostly do it the way Gronan does, but not as terse. I tend to give distances to the range of vision: "passage south is short, ends in a door after ten feet; passage north goes at least 60 feet and fades into darkness."
Rooms are "30 by 60, longest sides are north and south walls" or the equivalent. One thing I want to do more of is quick temporary sketch maps of irregular rooms, without measurements; PCs can pace it out if they want exact numbers. But I haven't done this yet because I've decided the perfect way to do this would be with one of those old-fashioned magic slates, the gry sheet of plastic overlay on a black wax square... but apparently no one sells these anymore. Too low tech!
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benoist
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
OD&D, AD&D, AS&SH
Posts: 346
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Post by benoist on Sept 17, 2012 11:27:07 GMT -6
I have basically four ways to do it and switch between them:
1 - The way Gronan describes it, which I use when I think the room-by-room mapping exercise will be mostly fun for the players (and of course frustrating at the same time, the way puzzles are both frustrating and entertaining at times).
2 - I have a veleda white board or a sheet of paper on the table and I sketch the vicinity of the PCs as I describe it (with the places of the PCs as crosses and dots etc). I can either map the whole dungeon as they progress this way, if I don't intend the mapping to be a challenge in itself, or I just draw area per area in a disjointed manner, as relevant to the immediate situation described, and it is the responsibility of the players to bring these disjointed elements together for themselves to make sense of the wider dungeon topography.
3 - I have a veleda white board or tact-tiles or gaming paper, use miniatures, and draw the dungeon as the PCs explore it. I switch areas as they explore, and the PCs have the responsibility to keep track of the way the different areas are linked together so they know where they are in the complex.
4 - I use a full blown 3D model with miniatures, Dwarven Forge, the works. The PCs will explore the area usually during one or two sessions. The set up is covered before hand with a bed cover or sheets of cardboard and I reveal the areas as the PCs explore them. Keeping then track of the big picture and how all these different set-ups are connected to each other is the responsibility of the PCs.
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benoist
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
OD&D, AD&D, AS&SH
Posts: 346
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Post by benoist on Sept 17, 2012 11:38:18 GMT -6
Just to let you see what to expect when using option #4 in my post above, this leads to diagrams a little bit like this (I added the pictures of the actual 3D set-ups used in the game so you can see how that leads to the mapping you see on the diagram): Note this is my DM diagram as the PCs explored the dungeon, but from the players' side you're expected to keep a similar map updated for yourself.
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Post by Sean Michael Kelly on Sept 17, 2012 11:41:45 GMT -6
Benoist, that's quite cool, but wow, what a lot of work! ;D Im giving you an exalt for that!
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benoist
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
OD&D, AD&D, AS&SH
Posts: 346
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Post by benoist on Sept 17, 2012 11:50:16 GMT -6
Thanks Sean! It usually takes me about an hour to set up a full-blown 3D area like this, but it's worth it in terms of eye-candy. I don't do it all the time to keep the "wow" factor intact throughout the campaign. Variety is good. As a PC, what you can do then is copy the general topography of the area. When you exit the area and go somewhere else, you report that on your general map of the complex, and that leads to all these lines between the set-ups themselves. Of course, if you've got some of the organization wrong this can lead to interesting side-trips on the PCs parts.... which is kind of the point, really. *grins* It is a different way to play the game than describing room per room the way Mike and Gary did it though, that's very clear. Some players are more comfortable with one type of game play than another, want to have a little bit of everything, or whatever. It's all good. There are ways to keep the exploration feel going while at the same time playing to particular game preferences. It's cool, and part of the genius of the "dungeon" in terms of play structure, IMO.
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benoist
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
OD&D, AD&D, AS&SH
Posts: 346
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Post by benoist on Sept 17, 2012 11:54:13 GMT -6
Here's a picture of what I was writing about... By the way, I really like the idea of using blocks of wood and the like. Very cool. I should try that too some time!
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benoist
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
OD&D, AD&D, AS&SH
Posts: 346
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Post by benoist on Sept 17, 2012 11:58:09 GMT -6
Which is the way Gary used to do it. Hey hi there Mike. Were you playing at Dave's table during the first Blackmoor campaign that led to the creation of D&D, or did you play with him after? If the former, I'm guessing you saw the table and castle he used to run the game. How did that look/feel like? How was Dave running the game when you were playing with him?
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2012 12:35:49 GMT -6
Hey hi there Mike. Were you playing at Dave's table during the first Blackmoor campaign that led to the creation of D&D, or did you play with him after? If the former, I'm guessing you saw the table and castle he used to run the game. How did that look/feel like? How was Dave running the game when you were playing with him? I played in Blackmoor after Greyhawk. Dave ran it the same way, but when there was an encounter he'd get out a laminated hex map and draw the area and place figures. I love the 'eye candy' aspect but in a large dungeon where players can explore as they wish it doesn't really work; what if they go to an area other than the one you've so painstakingly set up? Given three clear directions in which to proceed, PCs will choose the fifth.
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Post by Sean Michael Kelly on Sept 17, 2012 12:54:06 GMT -6
Given three clear directions in which to proceed, PCs will choose the fifth. So true! That's why I like it simple and agile.
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Koren n'Rhys
Level 6 Magician
Got your mirrorshades?
Posts: 355
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Post by Koren n'Rhys on Sept 17, 2012 13:25:52 GMT -6
Here's a picture of what I was writing about... Sean, that's fantastic looking! I love the simplicity of the Jenga blocks and wooden game pieces. I use a large Chessex mat and wet-erase markers myself, with either tokens or Pathfinder pawns. Seeing your table though, I'm more interested to knwo what all those booklets are. I see the LBBs, Philotomy's Musings and the "DMs Copy" of the Ref Sheets, but I don't recognize some of the others. What all you got there, eh?
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benoist
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
OD&D, AD&D, AS&SH
Posts: 346
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Post by benoist on Sept 17, 2012 13:36:39 GMT -6
I played in Blackmoor after Greyhawk. Dave ran it the same way, but when there was an encounter he'd get out a laminated hex map and draw the area and place figures. OK. I'm asking because apparently the Blackmoor game used some sort of table that Dave had to transport from the Cities to Lake Geneva to demonstrate the game to Gary, if I remember correctly. I was wondering exactly how that diorama was used in the game. I love the 'eye candy' aspect but in a large dungeon where players can explore as they wish it doesn't really work; what if they go to an area other than the one you've so painstakingly set up? Given three clear directions in which to proceed, PCs will choose the fifth. Ain't that right LOL. The way I do it is that I organize the dungeon complex differently. A level or single plane of the complex is organized in terms of contained exploration units which are good for a session or two of exploration. That's basically a game unit in space rather than time. So rather than say a session = an expedition back and forth to the dungeon, you have a particular 3D set up = a session or two. So on that diagram each fleshed out area is a "game session unit" so to speak. Each particular set up has a defined number of exits. Now of course the players can leave the neatly prepared set up any time they want. When the players basically leave the area, you go on with the game with a 2D support instead (I use white boards and tact-tiles) or simply do it for the remainder of the session using just vocal descriptions and sketches. Then the next session you set up the new area they are in. And rince repeat. Something like this... Doesn't work with the kind of set up I just explained because the map itself hasn't been built in terms of diorama-units as I just described above. You can still use some 3D stuff occasionally though, particularly if you end a session knowing where the PCs are and you have a cliffhanger on some sort in the middle of a huge battle for instance, and then using that knowledge, you can build the immediate tactical terrain for the next session, finish the cliffhanger, and then go on the exploration using more standard means (i.e. the DF was a set piece, once the PCs leave the area you move on for the rest of the session and use some white board or no minis at all or whatnot).
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Alex
Level 3 Conjurer
Posts: 92
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Post by Alex on Sept 18, 2012 9:04:42 GMT -6
In the past I was of the "recreate the map exactly" type. I don't really like that, as DM, so the last time I ran I tried it faster and looser. I would describe rooms vaguely, ignoring all the abnormal bits so I give them the major geometric shape, XYZ dimensions, and exits. If the players ask for any specifics I provide them. When in hallways I only describe as far as the light allows unless they tell me they keep going until they reach a door or branch, then I will give them the details as in "hallway goes 20', then 10' wide branch on the left, then 60', then turns right, then 20', ends in a door." Yes, the player map did have some parts that looked different than mine, but they figured it out talking amongst themselves "this corridor here connects to this hall over here, it's just a few squares off." In my opinion, t worked great so I'll be doing that again the next time I DM.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2012 10:08:22 GMT -6
Well, that's just a different approach. One element of the "duplicate the map" style is that you can have hidden things and if the players' map is accurate enough they can deduce the presence of things they haven't found: "there must be a secret door either here or here..."
That's how Rob Kuntz got his Staff of Wizardry; he deduced the location of the treasure and still had to spend two and a half REAL HOURS searching for a secret door to find it.
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Post by rossik on Sept 18, 2012 13:30:55 GMT -6
lots of great info! thanks guys! (love the jenga pieces , and the story about rob kuntz staff)
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Post by kent on Sept 18, 2012 19:13:17 GMT -6
What works for me in presenting caverns and dungeons are intricate complex exact maps for the DM (me) and huge sheets of paper for the players on which I scribble obviously inaccurate representations but in addition describe verbally the environment as truthfully as possible in a dialogue with the players. So ultimately the responsibility lies with the players to verbally explore their environment with judicious questions which improve the accuracy of the initial scribbles.
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Post by grodog on Sept 23, 2012 15:52:42 GMT -6
Well, that's just a different approach. One element of the "duplicate the map" style is that you can have hidden things and if the players' map is accurate enough they can deduce the presence of things they haven't found: "there must be a secret door either here or here..." That's how Rob Kuntz got his Staff of Wizardry; he deduced the location of the treasure and still had to spend two and a half REAL HOURS searching for a secret door to find it. Mike: I didn't know Rob had ever run an MU?---or, did Robilar find the staff?
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Post by scottyg on Sept 24, 2012 13:38:05 GMT -6
I believe it was Otto. Rob told me about him finding a staff in the dungeon. Or maybe it was Robilar and he gave it to Otto.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2012 21:06:36 GMT -6
Otto was one of Robilar's henchmen. It was either Robilar alone or with some of his NPCs. If I had to guess, I'd say just Robilar.
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flightcommander
Level 6 Magician
"I become drunk as circumstances dictate."
Posts: 370
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Post by flightcommander on Oct 2, 2012 0:03:28 GMT -6
Benoit, that is a fantastic map!
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Post by Vile Traveller on Oct 2, 2012 0:12:05 GMT -6
That's some pretty impressive stuff there, benoist! I started with figures and table-top dungeon layouts from the word go, so mapping for my players has usually been a case of copying what they see on the table. I used dominoes at first, but they kept falling over, then I moved on to the old cardboard dungeon floor plans, which I'm still using today.
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Chainsaw
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Posts: 303
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Post by Chainsaw on Oct 2, 2012 18:49:32 GMT -6
Pretty much as gronan says, but slightly wordier. If the PC's map is dreadfully wrong, I correct it. If the area is really complicated, I help out a little. I'm not infallible when it comes to descriptions and their PCs are actually there. Also, I worry about corrections less in a curvy natural cavern area (where deducing the location of secret areas is less relevant) than in a manmade area (where those secret areas can be more relevant).
My guys derive a lot of pleasure and utility out of having their maps, so it's an important part of our games and we try to make it work to everyone's satisfaction. So far, so good.
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Post by jasonzavoda on Oct 3, 2012 14:26:21 GMT -6
(hope im posting at the right place!) friends, i was wondering how do you DM dungeons crawls, in the "mapping aspect". i mean, do you describe the rooms, corridor and such by measure (a 3x3 room with...) and the mapper goes..mapping; or you do the map as the PCs advance in scenario? and then? what if the map is wrong? do you help the players? how do you handle mapping and gaming? I use miniatures, erasable battlemaps and verbal descriptions, but the players map is up to them and I just draw the rooms as they are convenient so they aren't necessarily going to be lined up with the previous. The map I draw on the battlemap doesn't always face North and it can cause real confusion with players who do not map. I warn them about this once, but after that the players are on their own.
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Post by scottyg on Oct 3, 2012 16:42:05 GMT -6
I consider the players ability to keep an accurate map to be part of the challenge, so I wouldn't correct their map unless I realized I had made a mistake in describing things to them. I usually don't battle mat or dwarven forge anything, unless their is a combat going on, so all the hall wandering is on the PCs to get right.
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mordrene
Level 2 Seer
Trogdor the Burninator
Posts: 40
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Post by mordrene on Oct 23, 2012 14:21:27 GMT -6
Here's a picture of what I was writing about... Sean, I like the set up. will have to steal your idea as i am teaching my children how to play. i do have a question, where did you get the character sheet?
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Post by Sean Michael Kelly on Oct 23, 2012 14:57:04 GMT -6
Sean, I like the set up. will have to steal your idea as i am teaching my children how to play. i do have a question, where did you get the character sheet? Don't remember. Somewhere on this board, I'm sure! Here's a few zipped user-created character sheets I've had. Most were done by people on this board. Mileage may vary. :-) www.dropbox.com/s/a6u03a9urowqai8/OD%26D_Char_Sheets.zip
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