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Post by chicagowiz on Jun 5, 2018 8:25:24 GMT -6
tetramorph - I differentiate between retreat and flee. Retreat is a strategic move, usually with troops in bad order (disorganized, etc) and takes a strategic move (days or a week) to recover from, depending on the class/ability of the commander. Flee is a pell-mell "run for the hills!" move, always in bad order and unless there is a strong commander (or in my campaign, Orcs who are fearsome) to possibly force another morale check to see if they stop running, at which point they're in retreat. When my monsters in D&D fail morale, it's a DM gut check on the roll and what the situation is. Is there an escape route? Did I roll a 3-5? That's a flee, if possible. Otherwise, or if I rolled a 2, they surrender. On a 6-8, there's a possibility for retreat/fighting withdrawal, depends on my gut check as DM. 9-11 is a continue combat, but there will be further morale checks. 12 is FIGHT ON! Strong commanders or leaders present for the monsters add bonuses to the morale check.
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Post by derv on Jun 6, 2018 16:04:11 GMT -6
Retreat can be a tactical decision if you are attempting to draw an enemy in or to move to more favorable ground. This is called a "feint" and is not a true retreat because the intent is to re-engage the enemy on your terms. Retreat can also be a strategic decision if you are low on resources and hopeful of reinforcement. Again, the intent is to engage at a future point. Regardless of the reason, retreat is not a morale builder unless it is followed by a victory. So, if you perform a feint that fails and are forced to retreat, this will have an effect on morale.
In wargames morale is an expression or measure of confidence in continuing to fight. When it is low, your troops may continue to fight or they might retreat in good order, retreat in disorder (rout), or surrender. A rout or surrender is most certainly a defeat.
It might be considered wise to retreat when facing over whelming odds or what is viewed as too strong of an enemy. Sometimes troops perform a fighting withdrawal (retreat in good order) when they have received too many casualties or are about to be over run. This is still an effect of morale. Your commander and/or his troops have lost confidence in their ability to win. Now it is a matter of surviving so that you might fight another day.
The only strategic decision that I do not tie to morale is evasion. This would take place prior to a fight developing.
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Post by talysman on Jun 6, 2018 19:29:19 GMT -6
Since I have only played wargames a couple times and am not as interested in mass combat, I take the same basic retreat/flee distinction that chicagowiz does and simplify it to very practical non-wargame terms: people or monsters in retreat give up ground, but still defend, while those that flee don't try to defend, only escape as fast as possible. If they can't escape, they surrender. If they can't surrender, they fight, cornered. I adapt the reaction roll table to morale sometimes (bad reaction is retreat, worst reaction is flee.) But I also am lazy, so I flip the results and compress them to 1d6 so that I can use the damage roll as a morale test. Every 6 rolled on damage done means a portion of the enemy fails morale and falls back, with the entire group going into retreat if at least 1/3rd of the enemy fails morale, or fleeing if half fail morale. This is adjusted by monster descriptions: those that always flee or never break morale behave that way. Monsters with minuses on their hit dice adjust the target number (so goblins fail morale when they take 5+ damage.)
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Post by rustic313 on Jun 7, 2018 22:47:31 GMT -6
Hey, @gronanofsimmerya , and other folks: As someone who did not come to D&D through miniature war-gaming (my apologies), I have been interpreting morale to mean that the monsters / NPCs attempt to run away. But the rules say that creatures that loose morale surrender or are subdued. Then I realized something: retreat is NOT due to loss of morale. It is, itself, a tactical move, a strategic decision. By the time the troops / creature have/has lost morale, they have lost the power to make a decision (or take rational orders). Instead, they just throw down their weapons / roll over and ask for mercy. Am I getting this more accurately now? Thanks for the help. Fight on! This is my interpretation of OD&D + Chainmail. Morale
Morale must be checked under several conditions: - Receiving a cavalry charge (normal types only). - Taking excessive losses (1/3 of force) or damage (1/3 of HP), or seeing a high-level fighter within charging distance or magic-user for the first time in an encounter. - Upon death of a commander/leader. - Whenever a highly dangerous or unnerving situation arises. Check morale immediately (for example, after receiving a hit) and apply results immediately. Morale is checked by rolling 2d6: - 2 or below: Immediate surrender - 3-5: Retreat (see below) - 6-8: Uncertain, but will remain. Cautiously attacks if engagement is advantageous, remains in melee if already engaged, or uses missile weapons. - 9-11: Good morale -- will attack aggressively. - 12: Impetuous. Charge! Will not rout regardless of further losses this encounter. Retreat: Any unit that fails to make the required score to remain in battle retreats 1 1/2 move, back to the enemy, and must either rally or continue fleeing (subsequent moves at normal speed). Surrounded troops that fail morale checks surrender. Rally: Rallying requires an entire turn and is automatic if not attacked. If attacked, then an immediate saving throw may be made; success indicates the unit rallies and may fight back, failure indicates complete rout. Rout: A rout results in flight, with no attempt to strike return blows. If casualties exceed 66%, rout is automatic for most normal types (see exceptions below). Additionally, as described above, a unit which has retreated which is then attacked and fails a saving throw routs. A routing unit may only be halted by a leader or commander’s physical presence with the unit, or by successful evasion to complete safety with at least a turn to recover. A leader or commander automatically and immediately pauses the rout of any unit he joins; each round roll 2d6+CHA modifier vs TN 9*. Success indicates the unit is rallied and the leader may leave. Henchmen typically consider their employers to be their leader. *This was originally "leader must remain three rounds." I think a check has more drama.Unique Troop Types - Knights, Heavy Horse, and most Fantastic Monsters (giants, etc): Check morale at 50% losses. Automatic routs never occur.
- Light Foot: Check morale at 25% losses. Automatic routs occur at 50% loss.
- Peasants and Non-Combatant Hirelings/Monsters: As light foot. Also, peasants must check morale against TN 9 with their normal penalty to attack (failure indicates they stand fast) and to defend (failure indicates retreat).
- Holy Orders and Fanatics: Never surrender (but will retreat/rout). +1 on morale dice.
- Defenders in Castle & Monsters in Lairs (citadels, but not outer works): In general, never check morale. Common Modifiers Light Troops/Leather -2
Med Troops/Chain -1
Hvy Troops/Plate +0
Elite Troops +1
Commander Killed -2
Holy Order/Fanatic +1
Charged by Horse -1
Loyalty Score -3 to +3 Flanked -1
Attacked in Rear -2
Near 4 HD+ Fighter +1
Near Magic-User +1
Near Commander +1
Charging (mounted) +2
Charging (on foot) +1
Circumstances -2 to +2
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Post by delta on Jun 7, 2018 23:10:53 GMT -6
Here's the thing I do that I haven't seen in the thread yet:
Use the table on Vol-1, p. 12, and add the monster's hit dice.
This does a pretty good job of echoing Chainmail's troop modifiers, AD&D DMG morale hit dice modifiers, B/X morale scores, etc., at great mechanical efficiency.
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Morale
Jun 8, 2018 8:55:14 GMT -6
Post by chicagowiz on Jun 8, 2018 8:55:14 GMT -6
Here's the thing I do that I haven't seen in the thread yet: Use the table on Vol-1, p. 12, and add the monster's hit dice. This does a pretty good job of echoing Chainmail's troop modifiers, AD&D DMG morale hit dice modifiers, B/X morale scores, etc., at great mechanical efficiency. How would that work? Roll, add monsters HD to roll, review results? I wonder if that would mean that most high level HD monsters would fight to the death. I tend to play them more likely to retreat/fighting withdrawal at low hp, so they can rest/recover/revenge.
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Post by foster1941 on Jun 8, 2018 11:28:08 GMT -6
I use an unwritten ad-hoc system that sort of combines the concepts and procedures of Chainmail, AD&D, and the 1981 D&D Basic Set. When I feel like a morale check is warranted due to amount of losses, bad tactical circumstances (flanked, outnumbered, etc.), or for any other reason, I roll 2d6, where the higher the roll is the more likely the unit is to break/flee, with the breaking point being based subjectively on my estimation of how steady the unit is (modified by circumstances). If the unit breaks, the amount by which they failed the roll determines whether they make an orderly retreat, an open rout, or surrender. Important NPCs and alpha-level monsters follow gronan's "what would your PC do" guideline - instead of rolling morale, I just decide in the character of that monster/NPC whether they think it's worth continuing to stand or getting the hell out of Dodge...
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Morale
Jun 8, 2018 22:25:15 GMT -6
Post by delta on Jun 8, 2018 22:25:15 GMT -6
Here's the thing I do that I haven't seen in the thread yet: Use the table on Vol-1, p. 12, and add the monster's hit dice. This does a pretty good job of echoing Chainmail's troop modifiers, AD&D DMG morale hit dice modifiers, B/X morale scores, etc., at great mechanical efficiency. How would that work? Roll, add monsters HD to roll, review results? I wonder if that would mean that most high level HD monsters would fight to the death. I tend to play them more likely to retreat/fighting withdrawal at low hp, so they can rest/recover/revenge. That's it. I can point out to you that it's actually the basis for morale in Book of War (if I ever do a revision, I'll change the success number from 10 to 9 to clarify the connection more). I'm okay with high-level monsters/apex predators being effectively fearless; e.g., the hit die value where that happens (7) is at about the same level as the troll ("never check morale" in Chainmail), the fire giants in G3 ("fought with hopeless abandon and sacrifice"), etc. I figure if you have a super-intelligent enemy who knows to withdraw on their own, of course that's an option, but then the whole idea of random morale is waived in that case.
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Post by chicagowiz on Jun 9, 2018 8:11:19 GMT -6
That's it. I can point out to you that it's actually the basis for morale in Book of War (if I ever do a revision, I'll change the success number from 10 to 9 to clarify the connection more). I'm okay with high-level monsters/apex predators being effectively fearless; e.g., the hit die value where that happens (7) is at about the same level as the troll ("never check morale" in Chainmail), the fire giants in G3 ("fought with hopeless abandon and sacrifice"), etc. I figure if you have a super-intelligent enemy who knows to withdraw on their own, of course that's an option, but then the whole idea of random morale is waived in that case. Huh. I completely agree with the last sentence, and the thought that HD7 is a cut off point makes a lot of sense. Now I'm going to have to go back and re-read your morale rules.
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Morale
Jun 24, 2018 3:58:14 GMT -6
Post by waysoftheearth on Jun 24, 2018 3:58:14 GMT -6
FWIW, 7 also happens to be the number of HD at which fighters achieve superheroic FCs...
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