AD&D MM Monsters retro-converted for CM?

[DungeonDevil]

Is there an online resource or a forum contribution (whether here on on another OS site) where someone has taken the AD&D Monster Manual monsters (those not already in the 3rd Ed. of CM) and written them up in terms of CM? If there has already been such a conversion, I certainly don't want to reinvent the wheel, as they say. TIA!

[kesher]

I can't say I've ever heard of anyone doing that, though I'd heartily support such a project!

[DungeonDevil]

Great!
In the next few weeks, I'll see what I can do to get started. Taking the already statted monsters in CM, I'll use those as examples.

[cooper]

Some things to consider:

1) Can the creature "fight in formation" a la the ogre? This means that there is an assumption of it being able to fight in mass combat and not just on the FCT or MtM. The opposite of the ogre is the Dragon which would never have a mass combat rating. There is some confusion "fights as 4 heavy horse" as actually fighting on the 1:20 scale as 4 units of heavy horse, for this would be a god sized dragon and not the 15' lizard with 12 hit dice that we have come to know in dungeons and dragons.

1:20 scale
20 ogres: 6 heavy foot
1 dragon: breath only
1 giant: catapult
1 wizard: catapult/field gun

1:1 scale
1 ogre: 6 heavy foot (6 HD)
1 dragon: 4 heavy horse (12 HD)
1 giant: 12 armored foot (12 HD)
1 wizard: 2 armored foot (aka 2 HD and 2 attacks)

Some creatures only participate on the mass combat scale with their special ability (dragon breath, wizard fireballs etc). It's not to say that you can't have 20 wingless dragons charge into battle or 20 giants fighting as 12 units of armored foot, but the assumption is that these are solitary creatures.

2) Defends as
AC 9-7=LF/LH
AC 6-4=HF/MH
AC 3- AF/HH

easy enough

3) Hit Dice
Light Horse: 2HD
Medium Horse: 2+1 HD
Heavy Horse: 3 HD

When to use foot or horse? Obviously of consideration is the creatures size and shape (4 legs or two?), but another consideration is number of dice. Sometimes it may be easier to list a creature as "light horse" instead of 2 foot because then there is less tracking of how many hits are required to kill it. This may be ease of use in mass combat as well. Take the Ghoul for example.



1:20 scale mass combat/u]
1 unit of ghouls att/def: LH/HH

1:1 scale MtM
attacks: 2 as mace
defense: between 1 and 4 hits depending on weapon of the attacker (LF kills HH in 4 hits, armored foot kills HH in 2 hits).

note: before variable weapon damage there was variable hit die depending on if you were stabbed with a dagger or a lance.

0d&d (men and magic)
AC: 6 (leather+shield)
HD: 2
dmg: 2 attacks as mace (in MtM combat)
alternate: Thac0 17 dmg d6 (two attacks vs. normal men)
greyhawk: Thac0 17 d3/d3/d4

Compare this to Cavemen
AC: 9
HD: 2
dmg: 2 attacks (as morning star)
alternate: Thac0 17 dmg d6 (two attacks vs. normal men)

1 unit of cavemen in CHAINMAIL would simply fight as 2 LF and probably attack as HF (morning stars), but perhaps it would be easier to have them fight as 1 light horse...

lots of options...

[aldarron]

Some critters that appear in the MM and not in CHAINMAIL had been written up and published, mostly in the Stategic Review. A (to my knowledge) complete list is in the appendix of the Resolving OD&D Combat with CHAINMAIL doc I put together. You can also find most of the lists on old posts on this board but You'll have to cut and paste.

[DungeonDevil]

Thanks, cooper. However, I'm now more confused than ever, and what I hoped would prove an entertaining activity for my vacation, now appears to be more work than leisure.

[sepulchre]

Cooper wrote:

3) Hit Dice
Light Horse: 2HD
Medium Horse: 2+1 HD
Heavy Horse: 3 HD

Can you expand on this? I have been thinking about HD and normal men in the alternative combat system and looking back to Chainmail. How does this square with the alternative combat system in AD&D in which these units could be 0 or 1st lvl. Does variable weapon damage make up for this discrepancy? Any thoughts?

[DungeonDevil]

MEN, Bandits (p. 5), HD: 1
MEN, Berserkers (p. 6), HD: 1+1, no morale ch. +2 to att. vs. NM. Mv: 12"
MEN, Brigands (p. 6), as Bandits, but +1 to morale.
MEN, Dervishes (p. 6), relig. fanatics, fight as Berserker, no morale check, +1 to att.
MEN, Nomads (p. 6), as Bandits. See Table.
MEN, Buccaneers (p. 7), aquatic Bandits.
MEN, Pirates (p. 7), chaotic buccaneers.
MEN, Cavemen (p. 7), as 2nd lvl FM. Treat weapons as morning-stars. No armour. HD: 2. -1 to morale.

~~~~~
I'm no expert at OD&D (I come more from AD&D), but it looks like NM are HD 1; somewhat tougher types (e.g. Berserkers) HD 1+1, and really rugged chaps (Cavemen) are HD 2. I assume all use d6 for HD?

[cooper]

Hey there Sepulchre, did you see the gygax quote I put in the barbarian thread that seemed to agree with your interpretation of what normal men can and can't do to a hero?

Feb 18, 2011 13:12:19 GMT -6 sepulchre said:

Cooper wrote:

3) Hit Dice
Light Horse: 2HD
Medium Horse: 2+1 HD
Heavy Horse: 3 HD

Can you expand on this? I have been thinking about HD and normal men in the alternative combat system and looking back to Chainmail. How does this square with the alternative combat system in AD&D in which these units could be 0 or 1st lvl. Does variable weapon damage make up for this discrepancy? Any thoughts?

I'm not exactly sure what you're asking, could you be more specific? My guess is that gygax looked at the mass combat tables and looked at roughly how many hits a heavy horse could take from a normal man--perhaps the armored foot, and saw that it took "3 hits" to kill 1 heavy horse. Using d6 damage (average 3.5 dmg) and 3HD (average hit points 10.5) a 3HD enemy withstands--on average, 3 hits from a fighter.

CHAINMAIL actually works off of a variable hit dice mechanic instead of the variable weapon damage mechanic. Reason being as its easy to use variable hit dice when you only have a d6. So the way a dagger does half the damage of a sword is that it takes 2 hits to kill your target, which is what we see in the mass combat tables. This is the same as d4 vs. d8 and keeping HD the same.

MEN, Bandits (p. 5), HD: 1
MEN, Berserkers (p. 6), HD: 1+1, no morale ch. +2 to att. vs. NM. Mv: 12"
MEN, Brigands (p. 6), as Bandits, but +1 to morale.
MEN, Dervishes (p. 6), relig. fanatics, fight as Berserker, no morale check, +1 to att.
MEN, Nomads (p. 6), as Bandits. See Table.
MEN, Buccaneers (p. 7), aquatic Bandits.
MEN, Pirates (p. 7), chaotic buccaneers.
MEN, Cavemen (p. 7), as 2nd lvl FM. Treat weapons as morning-stars. No armour. HD: 2. -1 to morale.

~~~~~
I'm no expert at OD&D (I come more from AD&D), but it looks like NM are HD 1; somewhat tougher types (e.g. Berserkers) HD 1+1, and really rugged chaps (Cavemen) are HD 2. I assume all use d6 for HD?

Yes, all d6 as the default rules are CM but with variable dice. Berserkers are listed as having a "+2 to attack dice" in CM pg. 26. Normal men are the default, leaders are shown as getting "+1 to all dice", this became the basis for the "veteran" 1st level fighter.

The caveman is interesting as it's very similar to the ghoul and the medium horse. The medium horse attacks twice as if with a mace. if you weren't using the alternate combat table, cavemen would get 2 attacks per round.

[sepulchre]

Dungeondevil:

...I'm no expert at OD&D (I come more from AD&D), but it looks like NM are HD 1; somewhat tougher types (e.g. Berserkers) HD 1+1, and really rugged chaps (Cavemen) are HD 2. I assume all use d6 for HD?

I do as well, and though Chainmail is new to me, I have found it to be a bit of a locus point to really assess the necessity of the changing style and mechanics of the OD&D/AD&D and AD&D (post U.A) . Specifically, I have been thinking about the alternative combat system without the fantasy supplement in Chainmail. Thanks for the detail of normal, concise and very helpful.

In AD&D this array of 'monsters' are all 0 lvl with the exception of leaders. Variable weapon damage is employed instead of 'variable hit dice' as Cooper notes, and the 'to hit vs. armor types' table replaces the MTM.

Cooper wrote:

Hey there Sepulchre, did you see the gygax quote I put in the barbarian thread...

Hey Cooper, so sorry I did not. I must have just missed it, have been back to the thread a quite a few times...Glad you reminded me to read it...this time I got, I think before I wasn't sure if you were being tongue-in-cheek or for real. Thanks! yeah, that citation seems pretty spot-on.

My guess is that gygax looked at the mass combat tables and looked at roughly how many hits a heavy horse could take from a normal man--perhaps the armored foot, and saw that it took "3 hits" to kill 1 heavy horse. Using d6 damage (average 3.5 dmg) and 3HD (average hit points 10.5) a 3HD enemy withstands--on average, 3 hits from a fighter.

Ahhh...I see. Yet, which unit determines our measure for normal man? As you illustrate, if it is to be armored foot then the heavy horseman must have 3 hit dice or 3 hits from a single armored foot (knight). If the measure is light footmen then the heavy horseman must have 4 hd if I have understood the example. The determination of which unit is the normal man and the subsequent defining of hit dice for other normal men appears a bit ambiguous, does it not?

CHAINMAIL actually works off of a variable hit dice mechanic instead of the variable weapon damage mechanic. Reason being as its easy to use variable hit dice when you only have a d6. So the way a dagger does half the damage of a sword is that it takes 2 hits to kill your target, which is what we see in the mass combat tables. This is the same as d4 vs. d8 and keeping HD the same

This, I am sure, must be rote by now, but it is really helpful and really interesting. Variable hit dice instead of variable damage...

Yes, all d6 as the default rules are CM but with variable dice. Berserkers are listed as having a "+2 to attack dice" in CM pg. 26.

If a berserker [heavy foot (10 Chnml.)] was in a melee with a knight (armored foot), the berserker is 1-1hd. That is armored foot vs. heavy foot (1 die/man, kills on a 5 and 6). The knight would be considered 2 hd. That is heavy foot vs. armored foot (1 die/2 men, kills on a 6) The berserker has +2 on attack dice, so he kills on 4,5, and 6. Do I seem to be reading this correctly?

Normal men are the default, leaders are shown as getting "+1 to all dice", this became the basis for the "veteran" 1st level fighter.

Okay, so in AD&D where normal men become 0-lvl, a leader, like AD&D serjeant is described as 1st lvl. a veteran of a few battles. This is also the case for elites in Sword and Spells.

[DungeonDevil]

2) Defends as
AC 9-7=LF/LH
AC 6-4=HF/MH
AC 3- AF/HH

I apologise in advance for sounding remarkably dense, but this doesn't seem to match what I see with the various kinds of equines. Despite the fact the three varieties have differing HD, they are all classed as AC 7, so how does one arrive at "AC 9-7 = LH"?

Was OD&D's ascription of AC developed on some tangible formula based on CM or was it solely meted out by Gygax arbitrarily?

I'm still sifting through CM and OD&D, but I'd love to know what mechanics are "under the hood" that I can arrive at something along the lines of...

x (in CM) became y in OD&D, and became z in AD&D.

[cooper]

All horses had the same armor class on the man to man table, so my chart isnt very accurate. This is how gygax developed the small medium/large weapon damage system. He gave large creatures the same AC as men but took the "horse AC" from the MtM table and raises or lowered weapons damage against them accordingly whic is analogous if you look at everything as "DPR" damage per round.

If you'll pay particular attention to the mace, against horses it requires an 11+ on the MtM table so when translated to d&d it does significantly less damage to a large creature than a sword does.

[DungeonDevil]

My copy says Mace vs. unbarded horse is 10+, if I'm reading the table correctly.

Let's take the Purple Worm (M&T, p. 3, 15). It says that they have 15 HD. Would it be suitable to deem them as equal to 5 Hvy Horse (HH being 3 HD x 5 = 15 HD) at both attack and defence? AC 6 is a bit harder to hit than AC 7. Does one have to address AC in such conversions?

Balrogs in CM fight as 2 Hvy Horse (from what I gather of earlier prints, as I only have 3rd Ed., 7th print), but are ascribed 10 HD (?) in OD&D. If Hvy Horse are 3 HD, then their HD in OD&D should have been 6 HD, right? Perhaps I've heard incorrectly.

Wraiths fight as 2 Arm. Ft. and in OD&D are 4 HD. Does that mean that we can equate 1 Arm. Ft. to 2 HD?

Zombies fight as Hvy. Ft. and in OD&D have 1 HD, but Skeletons are described as having 1/2 HD. Are we to assume that Skeletons in CM could be Lt. Ft?

EDIT (3/6/11): This was tough, but I'd tentativly make Skeletons (one of my favorite D&D monsters attack as Hvy Ft., but defend as Lt. Ft. with the special rule ported back from later versions of D&D that only 1/2 damage (or here, dice) is inflicted by edged weapons.

[aldarron]

Feb 19, 2011 18:55:15 GMT -6 DungeonDevil said:

...
Let's take the Purple Worm (M&T, p. 3, 15). It says that they have 15 HD. Would it be suitable to deem them as equal to 5 Hvy Horse (HH being 3 HD x 5 = 15 HD) at both attack and defence? AC 6 is a bit harder to hit than AC 7. Does one have to address AC in such conversions?

Balrogs in CM fight as 2 Hvy Horse (from what I gather of earlier prints, as I only have 3rd Ed., 7th print), but are ascribed 10 HD (?) in OD&D. If Hvy Horse are 3 HD, then their HD in OD&D should have been 6 HD, right? Perhaps I've heard incorrectly.

Wraiths fight as 2 Arm. Ft. and in OD&D are 4 HD. Does that mean that we can equate 1 Arm. Ft. to 2 HD?

Zombies fight as Hvy. Ft. and in OD&D have 1 HD, but Skeletons are described as having 1/2 HD. Are we to assume that Skeletons in CM could be Lt. Ft?

DungeonDevil, interesting ideas and sleuthing here. I think the questions you raise illustrate the fluid nature of the game. Cooper has advocated a view that I think you summarized pretty well with “x (in CM) became y in OD&D, and became z in AD&D.” Its an interesting idea and some cases seems right, sometimes not. Most of us don’t see quite as much one to one translation or deliberate faithfulness from one to the other as Cooper does. You can visit those discussions on other threads if you like, but in terms of monster conversions its not likely there was some secret formula.

However:

1 Horse being = 3 HD+ (light, medium, heavy based on arms and conditions)
1 Arm. Ft. = 2 HD creatures
1 Hvy Ft. = 1 HD creatures
1 Lt. Ft. = >1 HD creatures

Is a pretty good place to start, particularly for “fantastic” creatures, and attack ratings. Ultimately though it’s a judgement call based on “arms and conditions”. For example Wargs are given (in the Dragon #1 article "Battle of Five Armies") as HVY FT, whereas Giant Wolves (Wargs and Dire) are LT Horse in CHAINMAIL. That's also why your Balrog doesn't match.

BTW and FWIW, Purple worms are from CHAINMAIL but were one of the beasties Arneson’s probably adapted early on with their 15 HD. He quite probably also wrote the Balrogs D&D stats because they were a very common foe (and even once a character class) in early Blackmoor.

[DungeonDevil]

My retro-stats for the Lizard Men (MM, p. 62)

Move 6", Charge 9", Swim 12"
Attack as LF (jav, lt. spear, dart), or HF (hvy spear, club).
Defend as HF (if with shield, as AF)
Invisible in swamps, marshes, aquatic terrains (NM 12 to spot; Heroes 8+, Wizards 7+, Super-Heroes 6+ to spot).
Darts at 3" range.
As lycanthrope on Fantasy Table.

[cooper]

I like that you have lizard men attack as LF or HF, but they need to defend as medium horse, as the have 2+1 HD and the natural AC of chain armor (exactly the same as medium horse on both accounts)

They should not be able to attack on the fantasy combat table as they are not hero units (3HD or more)


Lizard Men (MM, p. 62)

#appearing MtM:10-40
#appearing 1:10: 1-4 units
Move 6", Charge 9", Swim 12"
d20-- AC 5 2+1HD att: 2 by weapon or claws.
MC--attack: LH or MH defend: MH

Invisible in swamps, marshes, aquatic terrains 90% (NM 12+ on 2d6) to spot. -5% per level of enemy they are trying to sneak past.
Darts at 3" range

[cooper]

STIRGES

#appearing MtM: 3-30
#appearing 1:10: 0-3 units
Move 18" (fly: no terrain modifications)
d20-- AC: 7 HD: 1 Thaco: 17 dmg: special
MC-- Attack: special Defend: as LF

May only successfully attack once, after they have been satiated they fly off to digest their meals. So 3 units of stirges who score 2 hits, will be reduced to 1 unit the following turn.

Stirges latch onto their victims and drain their blood. Stirges always attack at the same rating as their enemies defense rating. Stirges fighting heavy foot, attack as heavy foot, stirges fighting medium horse, attack as medium horse.

[cooper]

HARPIES



#appearing MtM: 2-12
#appearing 1:10: 0-1 unit
Move: 6/15
d20--AC: 7 HD: 3 attacks: 3 (clawsx2+weapon)
MC--Attack: MH Defend: MH

Enemy troops within 6" not in combat Must make a obedience roll or proceed at normal rate toward the harpies. A hit by the harpies, instead of doing damage, may charm the units unless a savingthrow vs. Spells is made.

[cooper]

Lycanthrope: wererat

#appearing MtM: 8-32
#appearing 1:10: 1-3 units
Move: 12"
d20--AC: 7 HD: 3 attack: 2 (bite+weapon)
MC: attack: LH or MH defend: MH

Wererats can move undetected 75% (9+ on 2d6) subtract 5% from their chance per level of the enemy. When fighting within 6" or within a city double their attack value as their numbers will swell with an equal number of giant rats.

[kesher]

This is really coming along! I love the developing stat block...

[cooper]

HD 2 AC 7-9 = light horse
HD 2+1 AC 4-6 = medium horse
HD 3 AC 0-3 = heavy horse

HORSE units in chainmail were a "fraction reducer". Statistically one LIGHT HORSE in chainmail is equal to about 2 LIGHT FOOT. So when you hade 3 LH vs. 3 LH you didn't have to roll 6 dice for both sides.

So, instead of having lizard men attack as 2+1 LF/HF and defend as 2+1 heavy foot (AC 5), you just reduce the fractions by saying that lizard men defend as 1 medium horse and attack as 1 LH or MH depending on weaponry.

With harpies, we have 3HD (HH), but an AC of 7 (LH), so we eyeball it as harpies defend as MH and attack as light/medium or heavy horse depending on their weapon.

This should take care of all the monsters that are stronger than normal men (up to 3HD), but not as strong as hero units (4+). Monsters with more than 3HD rarely appear in numbers capable of mass combat scale of 10 or more anyway like giants, vampires, and super heroes.

The alternate approach is what gygax shows us in 0d&d. Which is to say he translated everything to "foot" units and abandoned "horse" units. Which certainly cuts through some confusing nomenclature. No longer is a Light Horse a "light horse" it is now 2 LF (2HD ac7), as gygax said, a troll attacks as 6 men+3, a medium horse would attack as 2 men+1 (HF). The other benefit of this approach is that the monster's manual is usable as is with CHAINMAIL. Simply take the creatures HD and it's AC and viola! you have it's chainmail rating.

Giant slug: ac 8 HD 12 = 12LF.

[kesher]

Very cool--even I understand the numbers this time!

...and I shudder to think of mass combat with vampires.

[DungeonDevil]

After having spent about 1/2 hour trying to understand this, I think I'm going to require more examples. This is all too bewildering. Using CM by itself I can do without any effort, but all these conversion mechanics are making my head twirl around a la Linda Blair.

How would one retrofit the Skeleton with AC 7 and 1/2 HD?

AC 7 would make it either LF or HF, based on the conversion table from a PDF I have, but which class? What would it be on the Fantasy Table? I would make a rule that only 1/2 of the hits count if edged weapons are used, impervious to missile fire, see in dark, etc.

Giant slug: ac 8 HD 12 = 12LF.

Why not say that 12 HD = 4 HH?

[cooper]

Why not say that 12 HD = 4 HH?

Totally could have the slug be 4HH, just like a 12HD dragon could be 12 HF/AF or 4HH. The only problem with using horses, is it's not a quick and easy conversion into d20 as 12 HF tells us right away that it has 12 HD. Just like the giants in CHAINMAIL.

What on the fantasy table?

If you really, really, wanted to use the fantasy table, have them attack as hero-3. 2 HD creatures would attack as hero-2 and 3 HD creatures would attack as hero-1. If the score to hit is greater than 12, they cannot hit said creature unless they are wielding a magic weapon (in which case they can now hit creatures that previously would require a 13 on the fantasy table.) this is kind of how CHAINMAIL decided which creatures needed magic weapons to hit (treants, dragons, wraiths, they all need a 13 to hit from a hero-1).


So, you could simply say that skeletons fight as wraith-2 or ogre-2 or what have you.



The most important aspect of the conversion to me is translating special abilities like the harpy's charm or the undead's 1/2 dmg from piercing--I really like what you've done with the skeleton DungeonDevil.

I've never read the conversion table PDF you're talking about, but AC 7 sounds like Light Foot to me. So, defend as LF, what about attack? Well, depends on the weapon, but lets just say Light Foot as well.

How would one retrofit the Skeleton with AC 7 and 1/2 HD?

mass combat works best when it's very "broad" and less crunchy. That's why heavy foot is roughly AC 4 to AC 6 mass combat is about birds eye views, if you want detailed damage and armor and hitpoints we have d20 for that. I would look first to the zombie in CHAINMAIL (HF) and to the kobold entry (LF), Light Foot is close enough to 1/2 HD. Let's also treat mindless undead similar to the peasant class. A cleric or necromancer (or someone with a magic device that allows them to function as one) is required to move them in battle. An obedience dice is rolled to determine if they attack or just stand there. Undead are immune to morale checks, unless a cleric hero charges them, then consult the turning table based on the level of the cleric.

SKELETON & ZOMBIES
# appearing 3-30 (0-3 units)
mvt. 6"
AC 7 HD 1/2- 1HD
attack: Light foot, defend: light foot.
zombies attack and defend as heavy foot.


They are treated as peasant forces and require an obedience die to move or attack unless commanded by a cleric. Only suffer morale checks when facing clerical heroes, immune to missile weapons and take 1/2 hits from foes not armed with blunt weapons. They see in the dark ('though not invisible opponents).

It's never going to be an exact science. Take the ROC for example 6HD AC4. This could be 6 HF easily, or perhaps 2 HH? Chainmail says attacks as 4 light horse and defend as 4 heavy horse. OK. The spectre. AC 2 HD 6, should be easy, 2 HH, or 6 armored foot. But chainmail says 2 MH or 2 AF.

[kesher]

That table is awesome! Be Thou Exalted!

[DungeonDevil]

Many thanks, cooper!

Here are my tentative notes (I will be the first to admit they're sloppy, but I've got to get back to work soon, and polish must be added at a later date), after rolling up my sleeves and comparing CM with M&T. At this point I'm just too confused, and I suspect that this sentiment was common when players of CM first looked over OD&D in general. So far Cooper's been very helpful.
_____________
1 LF = 1 HD
1 HF = 1+1 HD (as defined by ELF)
1 LH = 2 HD
1 MH = 2+1 HD (AF goes here too. See TRUE TROLL, WRAITH)
1 HH = 3 HD
_____________

GIANT WOLVES: not defined in OD&D.
att as LH, def as HH?

ROCS (WYVERNS, GRIFFONS)
CM: all three att as 4 LH = 8 HD???, def as 4 HH?
OD&D:
Roc, AC 4, HD 6
Grif, AC 3, HD 7
Wyv, AC 3, HD 7

AIR ELEMENTALS
att as 4 LH = 8 HD (conforms to HD of staff elementals)
def as ? (impervious to attack)...AC 2?

EARTH ELEMENTALS
att as 4 H = 12 HD (conforms with HD of Device elementals)

FIRE ELEMENTALS
att as 4 MH = 8+4 HD
def as ? (imperv. to att) = AC 2?

WATER ELEMENTALS
att as 4 LH (out of water)=8 HD
att as 4 HH (inside water)=12 HD
def as ? (imperv.) = AC 2?

HOBGOBLINS
att as AF
def as HF
In M&T: AC5, 1+1 HD (shouldn't AF be 2+1 HD and not 1+1?)

HOBBITS
undefined, AFAIK.

GIANTS
attack as 12 HF
def as 12 AF

In M&T:

Hill: AC4, HD8
Stone: AC4, HD9
Frost: AC4, HD10+1
Fire: AC4, HD 12+2

I'm tempted to say that AC4 would be AF.

How many "plusses" after the HD are equal to one additional die? Is it like WEG's d6 Star Wars where a +3 = 1 whole die?

How many HD are equal to 1 HF?
I had a lot of trouble trying to figure Giants out. *scratches head furiously*

CHIMERAS (i.e. griffon, hippogryph, wyvern)
griffon=roc
wyvern=dragon

this entry in CM was vague and unsatisfying.

HIPPOGRYPHS
AC 5 (-->MH?), HD 3+1 (what would this be in CM? Should we fudge and say HH?)

SKELETONS
not in CM
M&T: AC7, HD 1/2 (How do we handle 1/2 HD? Two skeletons are equal to 1 LF? or say that it is as LF but you kill on 5 and 6 instead of just 6?)

WIGHTS
att as LH
def as HH
not hit by norm. missiles
AC5, HD3
Would we say fights as HH and defends as MH?

GHOULS
att as LH
def as HH
M&T: AC6, 2HD
With AC 6 I would expect MH and not LH as in CM.

ZOMBIES
att as HF = 1+1?
def as HH = 3 HD?
AC8, 1 HD
Confused about this entry.

GOBLINS
att as HF = 1+1 expected
def as LF 1 HD expected
AC 6, HD 1-1. How is this translated to CM?

KOBOLDS
att as HF = 1+1 HD expected but in M&T given as 1/2 HD. WTF.
def as LF = 1 HD expected, but AC 7 should be LH which doesn't make sense.

DRAGONS
att as 4 HH = 12 HD expected (12 HD is absolute max for Golden Dragon)
imperv. to normal attacks = AC 2
White: 5-7 HD
Black: 6-8 HD
Green: 7-9 HD
Blue: 8-10 HD
Red: 9-11 HD
Gold: 10-12 HD
I'm at a loss as how to translate all this.

TRUE TROLLS
3 AF
AC 4, 6+3 HD
Thus 1 AF = 1 MH = 2+1 HD

WRAITHS
2 AF or 2 MH (this implies that the two are equivalent)
AC3, HD4
we would expect 4+2 HD but get only 4 HD. Why?
However AC3 should equal HH.

GIANT ORCS
not in OD&D?

WEREWOLVES
att as 4 AF
def as 4 HF
AC5, HD 4
4 AF should be 8+4 HD. What's going on here?!
How do we translate 4 HF into AC?

BALROGS
not in my copy of CM, nor in M&T

BASILISKS
attacks not defined
def as 4 HF = ?
In M&T: AC4, HD 6+1. How was this derived?

OGRES (false trolls)
att and def as 6 HF.
AC 5, HD 4+1.

ORCS
att and def as HF
AC 6, 1 HD
AC 6 should be MH/AF; 1 HD should be LF.

ELVES
att as HF
AC5, 1+1 HD. Thus 1 HF = 1+1 HD.

GIANT SPIDERS
not detailed in OD&D

ENTS (Treants)
att as 6 AF
AC 2, 8 HD
If 1 AF=2+1 HD, then 6 AF should be 12+6 HD. What gives?

DWARVES
att as HF
def as LF
AC 4, 1 HD
AC 4 should be MH/AF; 1 HD should be LF.


Either I'm doing something seriously wrong or Gygax didn't apply any rhyme or reason to the conversion process from CM to OD&D.

[cooper]

That table is awesome! Be Thou Exalted!

Thanks for the exalt Kesher, I have charts like that for all the classes--and I have made some other cool charts as well (like using arneson's first fantasy campaign to build the drow city Ceril-eliu and greyhawk for use with chainmail). Someone over at dragonsfoot is editing them all for me, so I hope to post them soon.

1 LF = 1 HD
1 HF = 1+1 HD (as defined by ELF)

DungeonDevil. Very cool list of creatures.



My first thought is to not put a foot troop classification to HD. 1+1 HD is hobgoblins, 1st level fighters (leader = veteran) etc. You can have 1+1 LF just as you can have 1+1 HF, the +1 just signifies an "elite" unit. As gygax and perrin call "religious orders of knights" elite units that receive a +1 on morale tests (pg. 19-20)

Yes, elves are HF, but leaders can be a heavy horse, or light foot etc. I would keep hit dice and armor class separate. You can have 1HD armored foot and 3 hit dice light foot, just as a 1st level fighter with a 2 handed sword and plate mail will be harder to hit and deal more damage than a 3rd level fighter with a dagger and leather armor.

GIANT WOLVES: not defined in OD&D.
att as LH, def as HH?

Well, giant wolves are described in CHAINMAIL (dire wolves pg. 36-37).

They defend as medium horse 2+1 HD. Ok medium is AC 4-6.

Dire/warg wolf
2 HD AC 5
attacks as LH defends as MH.

HOBGOBLINS
att as AF
def as HF
In M&T: AC5, 1+1 HD (shouldn't AF be 2+1 HD and not 1+1?)

See my point above. AF isn't necissarily a HD classification, only the horse units can be used as hit dice. Armored Foot is only good for AC. 1+1 HD is "leader/1st level fighter" type. Think of armored foot as anything that does d10 dmg in d&d or has AC 0-3. So you could have a 3HD AF or a 6 HD AF etc.

GIANTS
attack as 12 HF
def as 12 AF

In M&T:

Hill: AC4, HD8
Stone: AC4, HD9
Frost: AC4, HD10+1
Fire: AC4, HD 12+2

I'm tempted to say that AC4 would be AF.

How many "plusses" after the HD are equal to one additional die? Is it like WEG's d6 Star Wars where a +3 = 1 whole die?

How many HD are equal to 1 HF?
I had a lot of trouble trying to figure Giants out. *scratches head furiously*

+3 is a new die (3.5 actually). Don't get caught up in thinking that light foot/heavy foot/armored foot are different hit die. They aren't. A 1 HD with AC 0 is armored foot, a 1 HD creature with AC 5 is heavy foot, and an AC 8 creature with 1 HD is light foot. heavy foot is not 1+1, nor is armored foot 2 HD.

Hill giant att/def: 8HF/8AF
Stone giant att/def: 9HF/9AF
Frost giant att/def: 10+1HF/10+1 AF
fire giant att/def: 12+2 HF/12+2 AF

Just as a 1+1 HF first level fighter would roll 1d6+1/6 to hit an orc in mass combat, a fire giant would roll 11d6/6 and 1d6+2/6 to hit up to 12 HF men in mass combat.

HIPPOGRYPHS
AC 5 (-->MH?), HD 3+1 (what would this be in CM? Should we fudge and say HH?)

yeah, 1 HH sounds good, afterall they're really just flying horses, give them the ground speed of a medium horse though since their lightly armored.

SKELETONS
not in CM
M&T: AC7, HD 1/2 (How do we handle 1/2 HD? Two skeletons are equal to 1 LF? or say that it is as LF but you kill on 5 and 6 instead of just 6?)...KOBOLDS
att as HF = 1+1 HD expected but in M&T given as 1/2 HD. WTF.
def as LF = 1 HD expected, but AC 7 should be LH which doesn't make sense.

1/2HD doesn't really show up in CM scale. it's like the difference between 2 hit points and 3 hit points, it's papered over in the abstract "averages" of damage. When in doubt lower their armor by one category, so AC 5 1/2 hit die could simply be light foot instead of heavy.

ZOMBIES
att as HF = 1+1?
def as HH = 3 HD?
AC8, 1 HD
Confused about this entry.

You should always kind of ignore "attack" value when searching for hit die. "defense" is what translates as HD. ghouls and wights in 0d&d have 3 HD AC 5. So, a really strong MH or a weakish HH, gygax went with weak HH. Zombies are actually classified with "orcs" which is 1 HF, but move as "goblins (6" instead of 9")

WRAITHS
2 AF or 2 MH (this implies that the two are equivalent)
AC3, HD4
we would expect 4+2 HD but get only 4 HD. Why?
However AC3 should equal HH.

what's being implied is that they can be foot troops or mounted (think of the nazguls mounted on their horses which was the inspiration). If you put a 4th level fighter on a heavy horse he will attack as 4 HH in 1:1 mass combat, but this doesn't mean he now has 16 HD, it just means that when mounted he is a lot more fearsome.

Gygax just decided to give them 4HD in d&d, probably because ghouls already had 3 HD and he wanted them to be more powerful than ghouls.

GIANT ORCS
not in OD&D?

Probably hobgoblins. It looks like you found a mistake in my chart. I listed normal orcs as 1AF, but orcs are listed as HF on page 43. With "giant orcs" or you can think of them as 1 HD orcs with AC 0-3 instead of normal orcs which are 1 HD and AC 4-6. Or 1+1 HD AC 5 which is what a hobgoblin is. So, in CM gygax was thinking hobgoblins would be 1 AF, but in Od&d he ended up with 1+1 HF (six of one, half a dozen of the other in terms of power).

WEREWOLVES
att as 4 AF
def as 4 HF
AC5, HD 4
4 AF should be 8+4 HD. What's going on here?!
How do we translate 4 HF into AC?

again, I don't think LF/HF/AF as different hit die, it's not comparable to the "fraction reducers" that horse units were (although like the giant orcs above, you could take a 2HD creature with an AC 9 and call it AF, just as you could take a 1HD creature with AC 0 and call it AF).

attack as 4 AF doesn't tell us HD, it just tells us how much damage (in ad&d d10 dmg lets say instead of d8 for HF and d6 for light foot).
defense as 4 HF. 4 tells us 4 HD, HF tells us Armor Class of 4-6.

werewolf AC 5 4HD = 4 HF
were boar AC 4 4+1 HD = 4+1HF
were tiger AC 3 5HD = 5 AF
were bear AC 2 6 HD = 6 AF

DRAGONS
att as 4 HH = 12 HD expected (12 HD is absolute max for Golden Dragon)
imperv. to normal attacks = AC 2
White: 5-7 HD
Black: 6-8 HD
Green: 7-9 HD
Blue: 8-10 HD
Red: 9-11 HD
Gold: 10-12 HD
I'm at a loss as how to translate all this.

So all dragons are 5-12 AF. 5-12 men = HD, AF = armor class of 0-3.

gygax gave dragons the "giant" treatment. Instead of a 12 HD dragon being 4HH, gygax just said gold dragons are 12 men/HD, white dragons are 5-7 men/HD. men= hit dice. or all dragons are 2-4 HH roughly if we keep the "horse" fraction reducer (so if two dragons fight each other in 1:1 mass combat you can roll less dice).

ORCS
att and def as HF
AC 6, 1 HD
AC 6 should be MH/AF; 1 HD should be LF.

Again--if you will forgive me, your biggest problem again. 1 HD is not LF. LF is only AC.
1HD = 1 man, AC 6 = HF. thanks again for catching the flaw in my chart, I'm fixing the original now. orc = 1 HF just as chainmail describes.

ELVES
att as HF
AC5, 1+1 HD. Thus 1 HF = 1+1 HD.

AC 5 1+1 HD= 1+1 HF. You can still have a 1+1 elf in plate armor fight as 1+1 AF. See my point on dwarves below. Elves got a slight boost from CM to 0d&d.

BALROGS
not in my copy of CM, nor in M&T

2 HH. got substantially beefed up in d&d.

BASILISKS
attacks not defined
def as 4 HF = ?
In M&T: AC4, HD 6+1. How was this derived?

4HF. 4 = HD, HF=AC. So, like the ents below, it was buffed a bit in d&d from CM. So, retrofiting to chainmail means basilisk is 6+1HF.

ENTS (Treants)
att as 6 AF
AC 2, 8 HD
If 1 AF=2+1 HD, then 6 AF should be 12+6 HD. What gives?

mistake again of equating AF with hit dice. 6 AF = 6 men/HD AF= AC 2. Ents "should" have been 6HD AC 2 in d&d. gygax gives them 8HD instead for whatever reason.

DWARVES
att as HF
def as LF
AC 4, 1 HD
AC 4 should be MH/AF; 1 HD should be LF.

all LF, HF, and AF are 1 HD. classification only changes their AC.

AC 4 1HD should be 1HF. But I think gygax wanted dwarves to be a bit weaker than elves, so since elves were HF in CM, he made CM dwarves HF/LF to be a bit weaker. In d&d elves became elite units, so they got 1+1 HF and dwarves were improved to be 1HF. Still elves are slightly stronger, but both had a bit of power inflation.

[cooper]

GIANT WOLVES: not defined in OD&D.
att as LH, def as HH.
3 HD AC 6 = CM: 3 AF or LH/HH

ROCS (Giant eagles, WYVERNS, GRIFFONS)
CM: 4 LH/HH
OD&D:
Roc (giant eagle from the hobbit), AC 4, HD 6= att/def: 6HF or 3 LH/MH
Roc (massive bird of mythology "double or trebble size") AC 4 12-18HD = att/def: 12-18 HF or 4-6 MH
Grif, AC 3, HD 7 = att/def: 7AF or 3 LH/HH
Wyv, AC 3, HD 7 = att/def: 7AF or 3LH/HH

AIR ELEMENTALS
8 HD AC 2 = CM: 8 AF

EARTH ELEMENTALS
4 HH or 12 AF= 12 HD AC 2


WATER ELEMENTALS
att as 4 LH/ (out of water)=8 HD AC 7
att as 4 HH/ (inside water)=12 HD AC 2

HOBGOBLINS (giant orcs)
in CM: 1 AF
In M&T: AC5, 1+1 HD (retro-fit 1+1 HF)

HOBBITS
1LF
treat stones thrown by hobbits as light bows in regards to range and count 1 hobbit as 2 hobbits when conducting mass combat missile fire.

GIANTS
attack as 8-12 HF
def as 8-12 AF

In M&T retro-fit:

Hill: AC4, HD8 = 8HF
Stone: AC4, HD 9 = 9HF
Frost: AC4, HD10+1 = 10+1HF
Fire: AC4, HD 12+2 = 12+2HF


HIPPOGRYPHS
AC 5 HD 3+1
att/def: 1 HH. moves as medium horse.

SKELETONS
CM: 1 HF/LF moves as goblin (6" instead of 12")
M&T: AC7, HD 1/2 (notice slightly weaker than zombies)

WIGHTS
not hit by norm. missiles
AC5, HD3 (1 LH/HH or 3 HF)

GHOULS
CM: LH/HH
M&T: AC6, 2HD = 2 HF or 1 LH (weakened in d&d to make room for wight)


ZOMBIES
CM: 1 HF, moves as goblin instead of HF (6" instead of 9")
AC8, 1 HD

GOBLINS
AC 6, HD 1-1 = HF/LF

KOBOLDS
AC 7 1/2 HD = LF/LF (notice slightly weaker than goblins)

DRAGONS
All AC 2.
White: 5-7 HD = CM: 5-7AF or 1-3 HH
Black: 6-8 HD = CM: 6-8 AF or 2-3 HH
Green: 7-9 HD = CM: 7-9 AF or 2-3 HH
Blue: 8-10 HD = CM: 8-10 AF or 3 HH
Red: 9-11 HD = CM 9-10 AF or 3-4 HH
Gold: 10-12 HD = CM: 10-12 AF or 3-4 HH


TRUE TROLLS
in CM: 3 AF
AC 4, 6+3 HD (retro fit as 6+3 HF or keep 3 AF very similar in power).

WRAITHS
in CM: 2 AF or 2 MH
in M&T AC3, HD4 (retro-fit 4 AF, or 4 MH if mounted)


GIANT ORCS
Hobgoblins 1+1 HD AC 5 = CM: 1AF or 1+1 HF

GIANT SPIDERS (fights as werewolf but lots of variety)
AC 4-6 1-4HD save vs. poison or die/sleep = 1-4 HF.

WEREWOLVES AC5, HD 4 = CM: 4 HF
wereboar: AC 4 HD 5 = CM: 5 HF
weretiger: AC 3 HD 6 = CM: 6 AF
were boar: AC2 HD 7 = CM: 7 AF


BALROGS (demons)
CM: listed as 2HH = 6 HD AC 2

d&d Type VI: 8+8 HD = 11 AF/4HH
Type V: 7+7 HD = 9 AF/ 3 HH
Type IV: 11 HD = 11 AF/ 3 HH
Type III: 10 HD = 10 AF/ 3 HH
Type II: 9 HD = 9 AF/ 3 HH
Type 1: 8 HD = 8 AF/ 2 HH


BASILISKS (defend as werewolf)
4 HD AC 5 = CM: 4 HF.
attack: save vs. paralyse or turn to stone.
In M&T: AC4, HD 6+1. (retro-fit 6+1 HF)

OGRES (false trolls)
AC 5, HD 4+1 = 4+1 HF

ORCS
AC 6, 1 HD = 1 HF

ELVES
in CM: 1 HD AC 5 = 1HF
in M&T AC5, 1+1 HD (retro-fit: 1+1HF) made slightly stronger in d&d.


ENTS (Treants)
in CM: att as 6 AF = 6 HD AC 2.
in M&T AC 2, 8 HD (retro-fit: 8 AF) made slightly stronger in d&d


DWARVES
In CM: 1HD AC 6 = HF/LF
in M&T: AC 4, 1 HD (retro fit: 1 HF) made slightly stronger in d&d.



EDIT: I think the difference between CM elfs and dwarfs and 0d&d elves and dwarves can be used in your games as CM dwarfs=hill/forrest dwarves or gnomes and d&d dwarves = mountain dwarves and CM elfs = wood elfs and d&d elves = high born elves.

[chicagowiz]

Please, please, tell me you guys will allow me to put this into a PDF as a Chainmail supplement? I'll put in the work on layout and such.

[cooper]

May 31, 2011 8:54:22 GMT -6 chicagowiz said:

Please, please, tell me you guys will allow me to put this into a PDF as a Chainmail supplement? I'll put in the work on layout and such.

Totally fine by me! Let's all just figure out the details and agree on the stats first.