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Post by Mr. Darke on May 17, 2010 22:53:15 GMT -6
...About pre-AD&D Greyhawk?
Greyhawk is closely associated with AD&D and rightly so. However we know that Greyhawk was used during the creation of D&D so what do we know about the setting when it was being used for D&D as opposed to AD&D?
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delve
Level 4 Theurgist
Posts: 170
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Post by delve on May 18, 2010 18:55:00 GMT -6
The Gnome Cache is a story Gygax wrote that was published in the early issues of The Dragon which is a few issues before AD&D was even mentioned. From what I remember it is based in Greyhawk. You could say the story gives a brief idea of what he envisioned the game setting for D&D to be like. Sad part is that the last chapter was never published... good read though.
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Post by Falconer on May 21, 2010 1:42:22 GMT -6
Here are a few rules of thumb (all generalizations which have exceptions):
- The 1980 The World of Greyhawk folio was created from scratch for publication and does not represent the original home campaign. Map, gazetteer, everything is new.
- The Greyhawk campaign as such basically encompassed a town (later City of Greyhawk), a dungeon (Castle Greyhawk), and the environs. More or less what you see in such products as Yggsburgh, Castle Zagyg, Dungeonland, The Land Beyond the Magic Mirror, and Isle of the Ape.
- For adventuring outside the boundaries of the Greyhawk environs, he used the Outdoor Survival map.
- The Castle & Crusade Society “Great Kingdom” map was imagined, at least on some level, to be the map of the greater world where Greyhawk existed (hence the World of Greyhawk has so much overlap with the First Fantasy Campaign; also, cf. “The Gnome Cache” as someone else pointed out).
- An even more macrocosmic view was that Oerth is a fantasy version of Earth, with Greyhawk as a fantasy version of Chicago. A chute in Castle Greyhawk could take you to the other side of the world to a fantasy China; there were also various ways to get to Mars (Burroughs’s Barsoom).
- Rob’s “El Raja Key” campaign and Dave’s “Blackmoor” campaign (and others?) were all vaguely assumed to inhabit different parts of the same world, and the same PCs were freely used in each.
- Gary’s “Greyhawk” campaign and Rob’s “El Raja Key” campaign were officially merged and Rob was made the primary DM of the new “Greyhawk”. Some of Rob’s contributions have been published as Mordenkainen’s Fantastic Adventure, Garden of the Plantmaster, Living Room, and Bottle City.
- Gary then started a new campaign, “The Temple of Elemental Evil” campaign. Essentially what you later see in the The Village of Hommlet and The Temple of Elemental Evil products.
- Most of the other published Gygax modules (Steading of the Hill Giant Chief, The Glacial Rift of the Frost Giant Jarl, Hall of the Fire Giant King, Descent Into the Depths of the Earth, Shrine of the Kuo-Toa, Vault of the Drow, Tomb of Horrors, Expedition to the Barrier Peaks, The Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth, and The Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun) were written for tournaments and/or directly for publication, so they do NOT really represent the original Greyhawk Campaign per se. Although there are elements like Obmi from G3 and a bunch of stuff relating to demons in S4 which originated in Greyhawk Castle; also, the EEG and Lolth from G3 originated in the Temple of Elemental Evil.
- Modules by other authors which were set in WoG (A1-4, S2, L1-2, etc.) obviously did not originate in Gary’s original campaign.
- Most player characters BY FAR were human fighters and magic-users. The occasional elf, monk, paladin, dwarf, cleric.
- The Citadel of Eight was the nickname for Gygax’s stable of characters (Yrag, Mordenkainen, Bigby, etc.) originally used to adventure in El Raja Key.
- Originally, players revered to Odin, Zeus, Crom, or whoever or whatever else they wanted. St. Cuthbert was also there from very early on. There was also the church of The Blinding Light (it had a more elaborate name that I can’t recall), but no Pholtus per se. Zagig was around from the beginning, although I think he was just the Mad Archmage all along and his status as a demigod was new to WoG.
- Later, nine new demigods were introduced: Iuz, Ralishaz, Trithereon, Erythnul, Olidammara, Heironeous, Celestian, Hextor, and Obad-Hai. Robilar released them from their imprisonment in Greyhawk Castle.
Well, I hope I am not too far off on this stuff, and I hope you found it interesting. Let me know of any questions.
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Post by Finarvyn on May 21, 2010 4:35:40 GMT -6
Falconer -- that was an excellent synopsis! Have an EXALT for it!
I've been thinking about this for a while and your post helps to fill in some of the gaps. I had also heard that the Gord novels give a more accurate version of Greyhawk City than any of the published modules.
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Post by waysoftheearth on May 21, 2010 5:22:28 GMT -6
That is awesome reading Falconer, I too exalt you. Tell us more about Gary's stable of characters and their ultimate fates, and also about any forays to Borsoom that you recall...
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Post by snorri on May 21, 2010 7:35:46 GMT -6
Excellent!
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Post by Finarvyn on May 21, 2010 7:37:41 GMT -6
1. Anyone know why Gnome Cache was never finished?
2. If Greyhawk is roughly Chicago, what is the Isle of the Ape?
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Post by tavis on May 21, 2010 8:14:41 GMT -6
- For adventuring outside the boundaries of the Greyhawk environs, he used the Outdoor Survival map. I also heard this from Rob Kuntz at GaryCon II, who said that he spent as much or more time as a Greyhawk co-DM on city and wilderness adventures as for dungeons. I begged him to publish some stuff that would give insights into the original style for that kind of adventures, like Bottle City does for the mega-dungeon, but it sounded like a lot of it was off-the-cuff or situation-specific. He gave an example of a party that encountered a vampire as a wilderness random encounter; it followed them for a long, long time, with Rob dropping clues that it was out there, until it finally revealed itself at a critical moment (I think it was while the PCs were in Hell, but my memory is a little hazy). |
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Post by Falconer on May 21, 2010 12:42:18 GMT -6
I've been thinking about this for a while and your post helps to fill in some of the gaps. I had also heard that the Gord novels give a more accurate version of Greyhawk City than any of the published modules. Oh, without a doubt, that is the legit Greyhawk City at its peak. It is hard to say how much of that material was present in the original campaign at any given time, though. Not that you would necessarily want to throw out any of the fantastic details given there, in the name of reconstructing a primitive version, anyway. It is probably safe to say that the "Old City" section of the city was at one time the full extent of the original town. Tell us more about Gary's stable of characters and their ultimate fates The Citadel of Eight included Mordenkainen (MU), Yrag (F), Bigby (MU), Rigby (C), Zigby (dwarf), Felnorith (F), Sigby Griggbyson, (F), Vram & Vin (two elves each counting as 1/2 a member). The first two were PCs and the rest were henchmen or NPCs who became PCs (or maybe they were still considered henchmen, I don’t know, anyway Gary controlled them all). Mordenkainen was considered their leader, although I seem to remember Yrag was actually created first. None of them ever died that I know of. You can read more about them in Dragon #39, The Rogues Gallery, and Mordenkainen's Fantastic Adventure. Other particularly famous characters are Ernie Gygax’s characters: Tenser, Serten and Erac’s Cousin; and Rob Kuntz’s Robilar. and also about any forays to Borsoom that you recall... Erac’s Cousin adventured there. (After the character Erac died, Ernie made a new character who was Erac’s Cousin and didn’t want to reveal his name to avoid anyone having that power over him.) He was a Magic-User, but had to switch to Fighter because magic didn’t work on Mars. I don’t know any details about his adventures there. If Greyhawk is roughly Chicago, what is the Isle of the Ape? It’s Skull Island from King Kong. It is magically accessed somewhere deep in Castle Greyhawk (i.e. it is not physically close to “Chicago”). |
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Post by Finarvyn on May 21, 2010 13:28:07 GMT -6
If Greyhawk is roughly Chicago, what is the Isle of the Ape? It’s Skull Island from King Kong. It is magically accessed somewhere deep in Castle Greyhawk (i.e. it is not physically close to “Chicago”). I caught the Skull Island part, although I didn't realize that you would get there through the dungeons of Greyhawk. My question was slightly tongue-in-cheek as I couldn't recall any islands in the Chicago vicinity....  |
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Post by Mr. Darke on May 29, 2010 20:55:41 GMT -6
Thanks for putting that in one shot. So, if I understand this correctly, we would not be incorrect in setting up a campaign area with the closer environs of Greyhawk and the environs of Blackmoor in somewhat close proximity.
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Post by Falconer on May 29, 2010 21:42:21 GMT -6
Blackmoor is always considered by itself and by people from Greyhawk to be the furthest northern reaches of the Great Kingdom, whereas Greyhawk considers itself the center of the universe. So, no, I wouldn’t make them very approximate. Maybe 400 miles apart (like Chicago and St. Paul, heh)!
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Post by havard on May 30, 2010 14:04:19 GMT -6
Blackmoor is always considered by itself and by people from Greyhawk to be the furthest northern reaches of the Great Kingdom, whereas Greyhawk considers itself the center of the universe. So, no, I wouldn’t make them very approximate. Maybe 400 miles apart (like Chicago and St. Paul, heh)! That sounds just about right, yeah  The heroes of Blackmoor were known to use huge flying hawks (aka Tarns) to get to Greyhawk from Blackmoor and back again. Not sure how Robilar and Mordenkeinen made their way, but at the time they were of such high levels that distance would not have proved much of a problem for them... Havard |
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Post by Mr. Darke on May 30, 2010 20:13:55 GMT -6
Hmmm. I am going to have to think about this. I am going to reboot my Yggsburgh campaign but want to use Greyhawk and Blackmoor as part of the world. I do not want to simply redraw the Greyhawk map as this is to be my idea of an Oerth parallel world which would have some different geography.
Basically this is a world that would have many nods to both campaigns but, be fully my version of Greyhawk and Blackmoor. Maybe this part of the thread needs to be split off?
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Post by grodog on May 30, 2010 23:48:36 GMT -6
Mordenkainen was considered their leader, although I seem to remember Yrag was actually created first. None of them ever died that I know of. Mordy was turned to stone in WG5, in case that counts  Erac’s Cousin adventured [on Mars]. (After the character Erac died, Ernie made a new character who was Erac’s Cousin and didn’t want to reveal his name to avoid anyone having that power over him.) He was a Magic-User, but had to switch to Fighter because magic didn’t work on Mars. I don’t know any details about his adventures there. IIRC, it was on Mars that Erac for the first of his two (eventual) vorpal blades. - Gary’s “Greyhawk” campaign and Rob’s “El Raja Key” campaign were officially merged and Rob was made the primary DM of the new “Greyhawk”. Kalibruhn (Rob's campaign world) never merged with Greyhawk, although Rob's Castle El Raja Key dungeons did merge with Gary's original Castle GH levels once Rob accepted co-DM of the campaign. |
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Post by Mr. Darke on Jul 2, 2010 19:39:34 GMT -6
After reading this and doing some digesting I think I know how to proceed with what I want to do. The main question remains of if I want to base my map on the published GH map or make one of my own.
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Post by Falconer on Jul 2, 2010 21:16:55 GMT -6
Leave it amorphous for a while and later draw a map cooperatively with some of your players.
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Post by Mr. Darke on Jul 3, 2010 9:52:40 GMT -6
That is possibly how I will do it. I know I will be using the Outdoor Survival map, FFC, Yggsburgh and some Judges Guild material. However, I am not going for recreation but use this as a base to create my version of a world that acknowledges the origins of the game and weaves my own ideas in them. I feel this is the better way to go about wanting a world that has some old and some new in it.
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Post by Finarvyn on Jul 3, 2010 10:12:52 GMT -6
I agree, trying to achieve the feeling of the game is more important than actual re-creation. Nobody can really duplicate Gary's world the way he did it, but by using similar products to what was availible at the time seems like a good start! |
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2010 18:42:41 GMT -6
The Gnome Cache was finished before the formation of TSR in 1973 (around 1970); but for some reason they never finished serializing it in the Dragon Magazine. I read every page as it came off EGG's tyoewriter and even gave a little jolt with a line for its ending matter.
Though my World (please remember, folks, I was designing a World from the Top-Down not just a campaign), never merged with Greyhawk, I still used parts from it besides the Dungeon levels of El Raja Key. Xaene I fashioned as an inhabitant of the Wild Coast who had fled via a portal from Kalibruhn to hide in "this new Grey Land". Tharzdu'un was created to be employed in either campaign structure (it is an Alien god, after all with specific reasons for insinuating itself into _any_ world), which was then used by EGG in expanded form as Tharizdun in both adventure and novelization; my old notes about the LCotE/Garden of the Plantmaster contain mentions of a cult to him there. But it is correct that much of it remained mine (Kalibruhn) simply due to the fact that WoK is quite an alien world in many ways compared to the strictly Medieval era TIME-PLATE (re: time template, new word) of EGG's WOG. Similar but very different, especially the Cosmogony, definitely in Geography/Topography, and in inhabitants. One of my races, though representing a vast minority were introduced aliens, thus making Kalibruhn the second such Sword & Planet World after Blackmoor with its City of the Gods/Temple of the Frog, but 2 years before Expedition to the Barrier Peaks --Detroit.
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Post by Rhuvein on Mar 27, 2011 21:41:37 GMT -6
Erac’s Cousin adventured there. (After the character Erac died, Ernie made a new character who was Erac’s Cousin and didn’t want to reveal his name to avoid anyone having that power over him.) Ernie confirmed this whilst a bunch of us were hanging out gaming and drinking beer at his house last Thursday evening (also watching the movie Waterloo . . Ernie loves history ~ books & movies). |
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Post by grodog on Mar 30, 2011 21:57:43 GMT -6
Hey Rhu---did he tell the story about Tenser beating the Tomb of Horrors, by chance? I never made it over to his house to ask about it, alas.
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