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Post by aldarron on Aug 6, 2010 5:57:57 GMT -6
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Post by giantbat on Aug 6, 2010 6:44:41 GMT -6
I would be interested to know if that punctuation is consistent through various printings. The 1st print does NOT have that semi-colon. Very interesting! Thank you.
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Post by giantbat on Aug 6, 2010 6:45:35 GMT -6
Right under my nose! Thanks.
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sd
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Post by sd on Aug 8, 2010 22:17:20 GMT -6
Regardless of Gygax's intent, the original poster's idea makes sense to me from a gameplay perspective, and I'm giving serious thought to rewriting my Elf rules accordingly. And I've been a pretty die-hard "Elves switch class" proponent for some time.
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Post by aldarron on Oct 29, 2010 8:55:44 GMT -6
Just to stir the poop, I thought it might be interesting to let out the explanation of Elf progression from a draft/playtest copy of the rules.
"Because elves are magical creatures, they will handle magic items (wands and the like) well even if they are Fighting Men. After progressing to the top of his maximum level in one class Elves may begin to accumulate Experience Points in the other class if they have a score of 13 or better in the prime requisite of the class they wish to change to (see below). Only Elves may freely change class. Elves who operate in both the Magic-User class and the Fighting Man class get the benefits of both classes;..."
So in this draft of the rules, only Elves could multiclass, and only after maximizing the class they started in.
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delve
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Post by delve on Nov 10, 2010 12:03:13 GMT -6
The concept I came up for this rule to use with the Holmes D&D Set is to run the Elf as a Dual class combining the XP of fighting & magic users until they reach the 4th level. Then from then on they'd just use the magic users XP table. Makes sense to give them a slower start since they are pretty powerful then they can progress at the same pace as the other characters.
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Post by talysman on Nov 10, 2010 16:25:30 GMT -6
Personally, I like to interpret the elven progression in the context of the optional rule for changing classes from Men & Magic: "While changing class (for other than elves) is not recommended, the following rule should be applied: In order for men to change class they must have a score of 16 or better in the prime requisite (see below) of the class they wish to change to, and this score must be unmodified. A Cleric with a "strength" of 15, for example, could not become a Fighting-Man. In any event Magic-Users cannot become Clerics and vice-versa." The character has the abilities of both classes, but can't cast spells while wearing armor. Although it's not stated, I think I'd allow a character to change *back* to the original class if both prime requisites are 16+, which is the only way the character can gain experience in the first class again.
What makes elves different is that they can switch between Fighter and M-U no matter what their prime requisites are, specifically because elves are supposed to be magical; so much so, in fact, that they can cast spells while wearing *magic* armor. So, if you add thieves into the mix, I wouldn't go with the Greyhawk changes to multi-classing, but instead allow elves to pick either Fighter or Thief and switch between the class picked and M-U. They can switch from Fighter to Thief if Dex is 16+, but from then on can only gain experience as a Thief or M-U unless they also have Strength 16+; Intelligence is the only ability that doesn't need to be 16+, because that's the freebie for the elven race. Wisdom doesn't matter, because in keeping with the original rule, I would not allow Cleric/M-U mixing. Elven "priests" would mostly be a social role.
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Post by foxroe on Dec 16, 2010 13:57:24 GMT -6
Here is how I interpret the Men & Magic rule BTB (LBB only -- no supplements). I like it because it's as strict an interpretation as I can get without throwing house-rules at it.
For reference:
My interpretation:
Elves start as one or the other class, NOT BOTH! The player chooses a class, rolls for hit points as per that class, uses the saves for that class, has the abilities of that class, and abides by the restrictions of that class. So, a first level Elf Magic-User CANNOT wear armor or use anything other than a dagger. Similarly, a first level Elf Fighting-man can use any weapon and armor, but CANNOT cast spells.
At any point not during a game session and not during an "adventure" (so, between sessions when not stuck in a dungeon), the player may elect to switch to the other class. The character now begins to accrue experience points in that class. It is only at this point that the Elf can use the abilities of both classes simultaneously (but can only cast spells in MAGIC armor). Additionally, the player rolls for hit points for the new class; if the new roll is greater than the character's current hit points, then this now becomes the character's new hit point score.* The player also notes if any of the new class's saving throw numbers and to-hit chances are better than the character's existing scores, and uses those that are better.
The character continues to build experience ONLY in the current chosen class until such time as the player wishes to switch back.
When the Elf reaches 4th level Fighting-man, the character no longer advances in this class. It would behoove the player to switch over to Magic-User at this point (if not already at 8th level). Any further progression as a Magic-user beyond this point is as mentioned previously -- experience is applied to the Magic-user only, at each new level hit points are re-rolled per the Magic-user and the higher total is kept*, and the more beneficial saves/to-hit chances are kept.
* This is how I interpret hit point rolls, as based on the example on page 18 of M&M.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2011 17:27:11 GMT -6
Solely regarding the hit point question, another option I've thought about, but haven't tested in play, is to have the player roll for hit points based on all their levels from all their classes. The hypothesis would be that since they are dividing their xp (in one fashion or another) rather than pouring it into one bin, this should result in total hit points comparable to (e.g.) human characters.
Thus, a F2/MU3 elf would roll 5d6 for total hp (pre-Greyhawk) - the assumption being that this character is 'probably' adventuring alongside humans who are around level 5. However, due to the rate at which xp totals for leveling progressively increase, their human companions would be more likely to be around level 4 in the example, thereby putting elves progressively further ahead in hp.
The other parsimonious interpretation of the LBB rules would be to have the player roll dice only for the class they are advancing at the time of the roll. Thus, our F2/MU3 elf gains a level of fighter (regardless of how he gained that level) so he rolls 3d6 for hit points. If the dice total less than the time he rolled 3d6 when making level 3 MU, he keeps his old total. This method will more likely result in the elf trailing behind his human comrades a bit in hp, since they will likely be rolling 4 or even 5 dice around the same time in the campaign.
I'm wont to side more with the 2nd method, as it builds in statistically lower hit points for elves, in agreement with Gary later explicitly limiting their constitution in AD&D.
Did nobody ever ask Gary about all this on Dragonsfoot or somewhere? I know he couldn't have given an 'official' response, but he could have said 'this is how I used to do it.'
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18 Spears
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Post by 18 Spears on Jan 27, 2011 17:35:32 GMT -6
I seem to recall a post on EnWorld in which he said something about halving the hit dice award, and always gaining at least one point, for whatever level just gained.
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Post by talysman on Jan 27, 2011 18:15:33 GMT -6
I seem to recall a post on EnWorld in which he said something about halving the hit dice award, and always gaining at least one point, for whatever level just gained. Halving is reasonable. Even if it requires a little more math, it also seems easier than rolling hp for both classes and picking the best result. Only using the HD/hp of the current class only makes sense if everyone rerolls hp at the beginning of each adventure; even then, there's the slight problem that an elf who is maxed out as a Fighter will have lower hit dice and hit points until reaching 7th level as an M-U. My personal preference is to just use the best HD of both classes. The only thing that changes is where the XP go.
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18 Spears
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Post by 18 Spears on Jan 27, 2011 20:03:28 GMT -6
I made them maintain two different character sheets IMC, one for each class. The either functioned completely as a fighter or completely as an MU until FTR/MU 4/5.
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Post by coffee on Jan 28, 2011 2:17:31 GMT -6
Did nobody ever ask Gary about all this on Dragonsfoot or somewhere? I know he couldn't have given an 'official' response, but he could have said 'this is how I used to do it.' Yes, this question was asked on Dragonsfoot and he said that hit dice were halved.
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Post by cooper on Jan 28, 2011 14:54:13 GMT -6
Whatever the answer, I think the best way to approach the question of hit points is to look at the elf in relationship to the dwarf. The dwarf maxes out at 6HD, the elf should max out at 4-5 HD. Taking highest class would grant the elf 5HD as a warlock, combined hd/2 would grant 4d6+5d6/2=4.5HD which seems about right to me.
For what it's worth, I think 2d6+1/2 is probably the best way to go for a starting elf fm/Mu
It doesn't really make sense to force an elf to be one or the other at first level, when the dwarf starts play with the saves of a 5th level fighting man--the elf should receive the benefits of both a fighting man and magic user and can choose how to level his character as he sees fit.
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18 Spears
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Post by 18 Spears on Jan 28, 2011 15:18:08 GMT -6
You're not wrong by any stretch, Coop (can I call you Coop? ), but I must say having PC elves who switch back and forth between F & MU makes for some pretty entertaining game play! Give it a try out before dismissing it entirely, I have one player (not an elf fetishist!) who likes it so much his main PC is always an elf. But I try to always say it, though I know everyone knows it ... play your game your way! If everyone is having fun then you're doing it right.
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Post by coffee on Jan 28, 2011 19:22:14 GMT -6
You're not wrong by any stretch, Coop (can I call you Coop? ), but I must say having PC elves who switch back and forth between F & MU makes for some pretty entertaining game play! Yeah, there was a guy in Kesher's game when he started who decided to play an elf. He interpreted it as two completely different aspects of his character -- to the point that the Magic-User was Chaotic and the Fighting-Man was Lawful! "Entertaining" is certainly the word I'd choose to describe that character!
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18 Spears
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Post by 18 Spears on Feb 18, 2011 5:35:45 GMT -6
Doubtless others will disagree, but I figure that the whole affair could be smoothed out with the following minor addition on page 8 So, let me restate what I think your point is. Please correct me if I'm misinterpreting your words. You're saying the elf is the same basic character whether functioning as a fighting-man or magic-user? The sole difference being to which of the two classes to which XP are accumulated? Differences in attack and save, etc., are resolved by choosing the more advantageous of the two. Is that accurate?
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Post by waysoftheearth on Feb 18, 2011 6:34:26 GMT -6
You're saying the elf is the same basic character whether functioning as a fighting-man or magic-user? Yes, I believe that is what appears in the 3LBBs. Clearly it is one of several interpretations, but to my eyes it is the most "obvious" one. The sole difference being to which of the two classes to which XP are accumulated? That was a mechanism which I proposed could help clarify the above. The concept of "proportional" division of experience (which soon after appeared in Greyhawk) could work equally well, if you prefer. Differences in attack and save, etc., are resolved by choosing the more advantageous of the two. It would be up to the referee to rule how this should be handled. But personally, yes, I think that taking the more advantageous of each of the PC's fighter and magic-user statistics works well. Regarding hit points, roll separately for both classes and use the better result.
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Post by cooper on Feb 18, 2011 17:00:07 GMT -6
The concept first appears in the fantasy supplement in CM with gygax referencing "combination" characters like Elric Melnibone of course at the time the only combination he could be referring to is hero+wizard.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2011 17:53:22 GMT -6
I have to admit, for whatever reason I never get tired of this conversation. What was printed vs. what was intended vs. what would work best vs. what makes the most sense. It's very interesting to me When I was using a system where the fighter and m-u were more separated, not just a decision by the player as to 'where tonight's xp goes,' I imagined elves as only partly existing in our earthly realm. The rest of their being stayed in Faerie (or Hy-Brasail or whatever) and each part was associated with either fighter or m-u. It would then take the elf some time to 'commune with the other side' or however you'd like to put it, and switch. Only in their own otherworldly realm would they fully combine the parts of their personality. Additionally, this was a good reason as to why not many elves wanted to spend time in humanity's realm.
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Post by Stormcrow on Jun 9, 2011 14:54:35 GMT -6
I've been thinking about this, and I'm going to weigh in. I think the following is the closest to a "by-the-book" description of the elf: - The player begins each adventure by choosing whether to gain experience as a fighting-man or a magic-user.
- The elf gains all of the benefits of both fighting-man and magic-user simultaneously. Benefits include the weapons and armor of the fighting-man, the spells of the magic-user, and whichever values are best for their current level in either class for attacking, saving, and hit dice.
- They may wear magic armor and still cast spells.
I think the whole point of this ability of elves is to allow the player to choose whether this is a warrior-elf or a wizard-elf, or both. I've heard complaints about the Moldvay elf class having to be good at both, regardless of what the player would prefer to focus on. Some examples: A starting Veteran/Medium has 1+1 HD (from the Veteran), so the player rolls one die and adds one. If the elf becomes a Warrior/Medium he now has 2 HD (drop the extra pip from hit points and roll another die). If he gets to Hero/Medium he'll have 4 HD. But now he starts building up as a magic-user. When he reaches Hero/Seer his hit dice don't change: choosing from either 4 HD or 1+1 HD, the better choice is 4 HD, and he's already rolled those four dice. In fact, he won't see any new hit points at all until he reaches his absolute final level, Hero/Warlock, when he'll roll one more die for a total of 5 HD. Another elf has worked up to Warrior/Magician. He has 3+1 HD (from Magician, higher than the Warrior's 2 HD), attacks on the "4–6" column (from Magician), and saves as a Magician in all cases. If he becomes a Swordsman/Magician none of this changes; the Magician still has better hit dice, attacks, and saves. But if he becomes a Hero/Magician, he now gets another hit die (4 HD from Hero) and saves vs. death, wands, and breath as a Hero (but vs. stone and spells still as a Magician, and his attack column doesn't change either). An elf really has three possible paths. He can focus on being a fighting-man or a magic-user, in which case he gets benefits from the combined weapons and spells, but not much else. He levels up as any other character, and when he maxes out he can bring his other class up in just a few adventures, thanks to the geometric experience tables. Or he can split his abilities evenly, advancing slowly in both classes. He has much more power this way, but it takes him much longer to advance, because there's no near-instant jump from the geometric progression. So... be fairly ordinary and max out quickly, or be powerful but take a long time to get anywhere? That's the strategy you have to decide.
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Post by talysman on Jun 10, 2011 12:00:41 GMT -6
That's teh way I do it, Stormcrow. It has the added benefit of working well with the rules for humans changing classes, as long as you don't add certain later (AD&D) rules, like "using an ability from your old class negates all experience for the current adventure." The penalty for trying to use both magic and weapons should be that it's simply slower (needs more experience for the same amount of hit dice;) the benefit of being an elf is being able to start with both classes and switch back and forth at will.
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