Post by aldarron on Oct 18, 2011 21:09:45 GMT -6
If we apply your logic to each PC class, then everything mentioned for fighters, clerics and magic-users is doable by normal everyday folk. I guess I don't "get" why you want me to treat the fighter-Man class differently to the others.
Yes, everyday normal folk (0 level) are magic users, or clerics or fighting men who never advance in level. The magicians apprentice is a 0 level MU, the village preacher is a 0 level Cleric, everybody else is pretty much a 0 level fighter.
What I'm saying is that 0 level humans, just like 0 level orcs or dwarves or goblins are "fighting men" by default. They use the fighters to hit charts and saving throws and they all fight as 0 level fighters because they are not magic users and they are not very skilled. That alone pretty clearly makes them "fighting men" by default. There are no charts or tables for "Un-classed Humans"
This is why characters start out at level 1. They have already surpassed thier peers and gained some additional perks.
In my view, the PCs classes are peers on equal footing. Fighting-Men are equally above and beyond ordinary folks as are clerics and magic-users. Anyone can say a prayer, but a cleric utters a Holy Prayer! Anyone can read, but a magic-user can read magic! Anyone can fight, but a fighting-Man can fight heroically!
Yes because they leveled up.
I kinda think what you are saying is that only heroes can be fighting men and what I'm saying is that anyone can be a hero, or at least, try to be.
Hmm... you asserted that fighting-Men don't have many "rules" advantages over normal men. I listed the combat advantages (the ones I could think of, at least) that the rules do grant fighting-Men. And now you seem to be saying that these advantages aren't the special hallmarks of elite warriors?
Well, they are certainly not the special hallmarks of elite candlestick makers, that much is for sure. ;D
Right, not the hallmarks of elite warriors. I see them as more the hallmarks of seasoned adventureres who rely on physical rather than magical means of defeating monsters and stealing thier loot. I do agree that the points you mentioned are warrior skills, gained by first level fighting men, and not necessarily abilities a 0 level fighting man would have, but not that they are decisive enough to mark the fighting man as an elite knight who couldn't therefore also be a catburgler or a traveling merchant or an assasin. By the way, I likewise see no reason a Cleric or a Magic-user couldn't have thief skills as part of thier background.
For whether fighters though are elite warriors or something more general I think we are only talking about two things btb and one more adding in the Faq
1) Using any arms and armor (no penalty)
2) using magic weapons (swords especially)
3) if using FAQ - "cleave" against less than 1HD
Looking at the first one, its definetly a fighting skill but is it elite warrior only? Again, I would argue that any adventurer who advances to level one will be reasonably practiced in a wide range of weapons unless they are using magic. They will have to fight to survive. Thieves have to fight to survive; assassins have to fight to survive, etc. Also, in game, this ability doesn't mean much, since as long as there are a few weapons your character can use, damage is the same 1d6.
Looking at the second, Cooper has an interesting point about Magic swords and I could see a rule where only warriors can touch the things, but I don't think this is what was intended. I think there are examples in classic D&D and OD&D of peasants, bandits, and other 0 level humans having possesion of magic swords and other magic weaponss. There's also dear old Bilbo Baggins, the quintessential thief, who often fought his way out of trouble with his magic sword.
Number three is trickier and not btb, but since it only applies to less than 1 HD creatures it kinda lacks the punch one expects of a lancelot.
So for me, I don't think its a problem to add a few thief skills or assasin skills or more warrior skills to the fighter template and individualize a character that way, instead of coming up with a whole nother class.