Saving Throws For Monsters

[crusssdaddy]

When did this start? Looking at Men & Magic, they don't seem to have them (despite spells like Charm Person seemingly requiring a save). And then later versions have the 'Save As' stat included for monsters. Do monsters get saves in the little brown books?

[snorri]

Curious, but it seems you're right. It seems the answer is yes, as it is specified that Giants can save against potions of Giant control (p. 32).

I guess the 'default' save could be find in Chainmail, p. 31 :

Hero-types : Saved by a dice roll of 9 or better
Super Hero : Saved by a dice roll of 6 or bette
Wraith : Saved by a dice roll of 7 or better
Balrog : Saved by a dice roll of 6 or better
Giant : Dice under 5, routs off board; dice under 9,
back 1 move; dice 9 or better, no effect

But the formula behind is not easy to find.

Holmes suggest the following, which is the bas of the "save as" system :

"Evil men and man-type monsters like goblins and orcs make man-type saving throws. Higher level monsters are tougher and more resistant to magic, just as player characters are. Monsters use the table above, most monsters being considered as fighters for purposes of saving throw, although magic-using monsters would use the magic-user or fighter column, whichever was more favorable, if not a human. The same applies to monsters using clerical-type magic. For conversion of monsters to the table, count each hit die as one level."

[crusssdaddy]

Okay, thanks.

[Finarvyn]

That is an interesting question. As long as I can recall we've always played with the idea that monsters got saves the same way that characters did, but I can't remember why we made that decision. I know it wasn't from the Holmes entry, becasue none of us had that rules set at the time. But I don't recall specifically having to look up saves in Chainmail either. Curious.

[James Maliszewski]

Being influenced by AD&D, even from the earliest days, I've always allowed monsters a save equal to fighters of a level equivalent to their hit dice, with some magical monsters getting saves equivalent to MUs instead. That's not in OD&D, of course, but it's how I've always done things.

[snorri]

I guess this is the most clear an easy method. Note that in BECMI (in master set, I think), saves are influenced by all abilities and not only by wisdom. I don't play C&C, but I think saves are only ability rolls.

But this is another clue in the archeology of OD&D, even if still complictaed to understand : saving throwns have been put in the alternative system late in the writing of the book I, while book II could have been wrote with a chainmail-like system in mind for saves.

[snorri]

I had a more complete look on this issue.

* In Chainmail, saves don't seems to apply to all spells, but mostly to Ligthning bold. Only 'fantasy table' creatures have saves, so mostly the biggest monsters, heroes and wizards.

* In lbb's, there are no saving thrown for monsters, but it's really unclear if they need it. Very few spells clearly call for a save in their description (namely : confusion, magic jar, disintegrate, finger of death). Only disintegrate clerly states a monster could save, but it's a dragon - so a 'fantasy table creature'. Finger of death description states that "unless a saving throw is made (where applicable)", which is not the best of clarity but could say that some creature have a saving thrown and other no.

* An article of the strategice review, 1975, explains that:

Saving throws for monsters are the same as for the appropriate type and level of man, i.e. a balrog would gain the saving throw of either a 10th level fighter or a 12th level magic-user (the latter based upon the balrog’s magic resistance), whichever score is the more favorable for the balrog. A troll would be equal to a 7th level fighter as it has 6 dice +3, virtually seven dice.

odd74.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=links&action=display&thread=301

This statement let a great margin of appreciation to the DM. At least, it seems it work for all monsters. Unlike later D&D, the "1/2 for non-intelligent monsters" don't apply.

* By the book, in AD&D Monster Manual, the situation is not clarified. If you use it with OD&D, it seems only monsters with magic resistance could ever save - if they fail the firts roll.

The fact is that D&D is, as a general rule, a symetric system : what can be applied to characters can be appleid to monsters as well. But that's not always true, as for example, monsters don't have stats nor individual modifiers. So, the Startegic review method is an example of that symetry.

But closer to Chainmail, it could be considered several possibilities:

- Monsters don't have saves against spells, unless specificly explained in the spell description (this way makes the spellcaster very potent!) or they have magice resistance.

- Animal and humanoids lesser than ogres don't have saves (it makes the spell-caster beter at low level - after all, even in later D&D red box, it do'nt seems there's save against Sleep).

[Fandomaniac]

Since I originally started with the Moldvay/Cook editions, I always had monsters save as Fighters/Fighting-man of equal level to hit dice. NPCs saving as their assigned class.