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Post by Finarvyn on Jul 7, 2007 23:21:30 GMT -6
In the "Equipment" section of Men & Magic on page 5 (equipment needed to play, not stuff for characters to buy), it is suggested that a copy of Outdoor Survival is needed. On page 15 of The Underworld & Wilderness Adventures, another reference to Outdoor Survival is made: The terrain beyond the immediate surroundings of the dungeon area should be unknown to all but the referee. Off-hand adventures in the wilderness are made on the OUTDOOR SURVIVAL playing board (explained below). Exploratory journies, such as expeditions to find land suitable for a castle or in search of some legendary treasure are handled in an entirely different manner. OUTDOOR SURVIVAL has a playing board perfect for general adventures. Catch basins are castles, buildings are towns, and the balance of the terrain is as indicated. For those not "in the know", Outdoor Survival was a boardgame made by Avalon Hill where players were wandering through the wilderness. Rumor has it that it was created as a challenge since someone thought a game of this subject would never make a good game. I've occasionally dusted off my copy and used the board when I wanted a "back to the basics" feel to my campaign. Anyone else do this?
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Post by Finarvyn on Jul 7, 2007 23:24:45 GMT -6
By the way, there is a discussion that is sort of like this at the Wayfarer's Inn. A couple of the players of Dave Arneson's early Blackmoor campaign were remembering that Dave used the Outdoor Survival map as part of the lands "to the south" of the main campaign map.
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Post by ffilz on Jul 7, 2007 23:41:00 GMT -6
I was looking at that text a few weeks ago. I guess I had never read it closely, because it talks about "off-hand" wilderness adventures using the Outdoor Survival board, but "exploratory" wilderness adventures using something different.
Now the question is what is meant by the difference between off-hand and exploratory? Why would you use two different maps? I wonder if the intent was for the Outdoor Survival board to be used for small scale, and something else for large scale? So you would use the Outdoor Survival board for a wilderness random encounter or something?
Frank
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Post by calithena on Jul 8, 2007 5:10:04 GMT -6
I think what Gary probably had in mind was when you're just sitting down with some friends to play and need a wilderness map, the outdoor survival board is a great tool for this, but if you're at the point in a long-term game where high level characters are making their own castles, exploring the world, etc., you'll want to make your own map instead.
Everyone I've ever talked to who played OS said it was a terrible game.
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Post by meepo on Jul 8, 2007 6:35:52 GMT -6
Everyone I've ever talked to who played OS said it was a terrible game. That's exactly the impression I've gotten from boardgamers who remember it. Me, I've never even seen it before. Is it just a large hex map?
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Post by Finarvyn on Jul 8, 2007 6:58:46 GMT -6
Everyone I've ever talked to who played OS said it was a terrible game. It is. A friend and I tried to play it a few times and it seems almost impossible to win because you keep getting lost. I understand that its endorsement in OD&D is the only thing that caused it to be such a big seller....
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Post by foster1941 on Jul 8, 2007 12:35:06 GMT -6
I think what Gary probably had in mind was when you're just sitting down with some friends to play and need a wilderness map, the outdoor survival board is a great tool for this, but if you're at the point in a long-term game where high level characters are making their own castles, exploring the world, etc., you'll want to make your own map instead. Right. I think the idea is that the OS map is used when it's just a case of players wanting to go out into the wilderness to fight some stuff and the DM doesn't have anything in particular prepared (and presumably the board is placed on the table and visible to all, rather that the DM trying awkwardly to keep it hidden). Later in the campaign, though, it's supposed to be replaced by a wilderness created by the DM which the players have to explore/map on their own. Note also that the use of the OS map in D&D appears (going by the reference to it in First Fantasy Campaign) to have been an Arneson-ism, and (per Tim Kask at DF) a lot of the Arneson-originated stuff Gygax was more or less guessing at the meanings of when he included it in D&D, so it's entirely possible Gygax himself didn't really know what you were supposed to use the OS map for, but included it anyway because 1) Arneson had made reference to it, and 2) he was friends with the guys at Avalon Hill (they published his Alexander the Great game and he offered D&D to them) and wanted to give them a "shout out" in the game (which is what one of the other TSR-oldtimers (Rob Kuntz or Steve Marsh maybe?) said when asked about it -- "you were never expected to really use it, Gary just included it as a way of paying tribute to his friends at TAHGC"). Never played it, but it certainly doesn't look like much fun.
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Post by murquhart72 on Jul 8, 2007 17:12:34 GMT -6
There are a couple views of this board suitable for printing out. They make good, generic campaign maps for the imagination impaired
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Post by tgamemaster1975 on Jul 8, 2007 17:26:30 GMT -6
We used in back in the day as a starting point and then figured out it was easier just to draw our own map and haven't used it since.
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Post by robertsconley on Jul 12, 2007 6:50:46 GMT -6
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Post by crimhthanthegreat on Jul 12, 2007 6:58:30 GMT -6
What size paper is your workup designed to print on? BTW this is an awesome job you have done.
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WSmith
Level 4 Theurgist
Where is the Great Svenny when we need him?
Posts: 138
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Post by WSmith on Jul 12, 2007 7:02:41 GMT -6
I actually played the game once decades ago. I don't remember if we liked but we never played it again, FWIW.
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Post by robertsconley on Jul 12, 2007 7:19:34 GMT -6
What size paper is your workup designed to print on? BTW this is an awesome job you have done. Thanks I can create this at any size. What would you like. ;D If you print the linked graphics at 300 dip it will be roughly 8.5 x 11 in landscape. If you jump to here wayfarer.myfreeforum.org/about232.html. You can see what I am thinking about doing with it. In a nutshell I am thinking of making a "blank" version with the map and all locations in a form that a DM can fill out with his notes. Then making a "Rob Conley" version with a mini campaign in the style of Wilderland of High Fantasy (which I am a co-author of). I would limit my self to what in OD&D (not even Greyhawk, Blackmor, or EW) even though I may have the stats in different versions for OSRIC, Castles & Crusades, and D20. Although I have to say that there are some pre-OSRIC first edition AD&D stuff that WoTC didn't go after so maybe the same can be done for OD&D adventure. Now that the PDFs have been released there will be a market. I am also wondering is my interpretation of the Outdoor Survival Map is sufficiently different for copyright.
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jdjarvis
Level 4 Theurgist
Hmmm,,,, had two user names, I'll be using this one from now on.
Posts: 123
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Post by jdjarvis on Jul 26, 2007 14:14:37 GMT -6
Everyone I've ever talked to who played OS said it was a terrible game. i always enjoyed the game. It can be very difficult but is true to it's source material. It's a pretty good game for folks into surival camping. It's winnable but very difficult, just like suriving in the true wilderness is.
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Post by murquhart72 on Jul 23, 2017 17:39:40 GMT -6
Rumor has it that the City of Greyhawk was originally the left-center "city" (cabin) on this map! In addition to the pools being castles/strongholds and the cabins being cities, I see the deer as marking possible lairs of evil beasties or humanoids.
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Post by Malchor on Apr 14, 2021 5:50:18 GMT -6
There is a mod for Outdoor Survival on Tabletop Simulator (runs on Steam), and I own two physical copies game, so no rights issues.
If anyone is interested in trying this game out (it is really 5 games in one), we can run it there.
Monday, April 19, 830pm ET. We can run for an hour or two.
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Post by dicebro on Apr 15, 2021 6:02:56 GMT -6
I use OS map sometimes. I have also developed a way to create a map with OS terrain by dicing it out hex by hex. It’s a simplified method derived, in part, from the Source of the Nile game method.
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Post by retrorob on Apr 15, 2021 13:03:49 GMT -6
OS is a good game. The map is particularly awesome. It evokes a feeling of high adventure, like in Conan stories. Remember "Red Nails"?
I used the map only twice, for my Tunnels & Trolls campaign. Additionally, I employed wilderness encounter table and hunting rule from one of the scenarios (1-2 on d6 to satisfy one's needs for a day - brilliant!).
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Post by Malchor on Apr 19, 2021 10:50:21 GMT -6
Quick update. As there were no takers. Outdoor Survival is now planned for my living room with my wife.
I’ll post again as my virtual group wants to give it a try.
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Post by angelicdoctor on Apr 23, 2021 10:38:13 GMT -6
OS is still pretty reasonably priced over on eBay...just sayin'.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2021 17:56:54 GMT -6
Quick update. As there were no takers. Outdoor Survival is now planned for my living room with my wife. I’ll post again as my virtual group wants to give it a try. Yeah...see, when I read all these things, like this offer and the Scrum Con stuff, I really want to participate but my current work/family situation simply makes it impossible for me to currently get involved in any online games other than pbp. I often have to drop everything at a moment's notice and that's not fair to anyone else in an online game of other types. Maybe someday...
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Post by qomannon on Jan 4, 2022 21:36:21 GMT -6
Yes, my campaign is a "west marches" style (I was doing "west marches" before "west marches" became a thing) using the Outdoor Survival as a campaign map -- but at 24 miles per hex.
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skars
Level 6 Magician
Posts: 407
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Post by skars on May 18, 2022 23:17:36 GMT -6
One quirk of D&D and the presence of Outdoor Survival is either a typo on behalf of gygax/arneson or an update between the printings of OS. From D&D we have this statement,
"All terrain penalties are as stated in OUTDOOR SURVIVAL; mountains and swamps cost three movement per hex, crossing rivers at non-ford hexes also costs three, and woods or deserts cost two. Tracks through mountainous terrain cost two factors per hex moved, and tracks through woods or swamps incur no movement penalty."
But, if you look at the TEC from outdoor survival, it costs 4 movement to enter a swamp, not 3.
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skars
Level 6 Magician
Posts: 407
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Post by skars on May 18, 2022 23:28:59 GMT -6
One thing that can also be done with the Outdoor Survival game parts is to keep track of rest. What I like to do is for each day the party does not rest, they descend down the fatigue track. It works well because the counter starts at 6 movement and that aligns well with the rest rules, "Rest: All creatures must rest after six days of movement. Rest must be at least one full day."
So, if you don't rest a full day you will slowly get more fatigued and you can reflect that with the counter representing the party. After say the 3rd day (movement 3), it would be impossible to enter a swamp (costs 4) until the party rests for a day.
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Post by Mushgnome on Oct 9, 2022 18:55:01 GMT -6
Bumping in reference to a recent discussion by Mordorandor about The Usefulness of the Purify Food and Drink spell: I noticed an interesting quirk in Outdoor Survival. For each Scenario card, there is a Wilderness Encounter table with three columns: Natural Hazards, Animal/Insect, or Personal. Which of the three columns should the player roll on? The answer surprised me. A d6 table is provided as an alternative, if you prefer to determine randomly (1=natural hazard, 2-3=animal/insect, 3-6=personal) but there is also this suggestion, which I really like: "You will note that we give you a choice in the selection of the encounter for the sake of the adding strategy to the play of the game... [T]he three encounter options provide for a variety of decision making ranging from the conservative to the panic stage. They are, of course, slanted according to the level of players' expertise in wilderness skills." That caught my attention as a fun and interesting mechanic, that somehow didn't make its way into D&D: Each game day, each player decides which 'flavor' of challenge they are willing to face: Would they rather risk getting caught in a storm, bit by a rattlesnake, or hobbled by a sprained ankle? Each player can tailor their experience of the game to their own real-world interests: Meteorology geeks roll on table A, animal-lovers on table B, or first-aid aficionados on table C. I can maybe imagine a Boy Scout Troop in the 1970s playing different Outdoor Survival scenarios as they work their way through their merit badges. It got me thinking about the two main mechanics of Outdoor Survival that did find their way into the 3LBB's of Original Dungeons & Dragons: the daily d6 roll to avoid being lost, and the daily d6 roll to avoid wandering monsters. What if we change that 'and' to 'or'? Give the players the choice: Risk getting lost or risk a wandering monster check? Think about it: It would give players an interesting choice between two playstyles, based on their risk tolerance. They can follow the main road, with zero risk of getting lost, but making themselves a target for wandering monsters. Or they can avoid the wandering monsters by taking the road less traveled, but they risk getting lost in the wilderness. It would also give DMs a took to 'raise the stakes' for particularly dangerous wilderness zones: "The party has now entered Mirkwood Forest, so you have to check for both getting lost and wandering monsters!"
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Post by hamurai on Oct 10, 2022 0:41:19 GMT -6
It got me thinking about the two main mechanics of Outdoor Survival that did find their way into the 3LBB's of Original Dungeons & Dragons: the daily d6 roll to avoid being lost, and the daily d6 roll to avoid wandering monsters. What if we change that 'and' to 'or'? Give the players the choice: Risk getting lost or risk a wandering monster check? Think about it: It would give players an interesting choice between two playstyles, based on their risk tolerance. They can follow the main road, with zero risk of getting lost, but making themselves a target for wandering monsters. Or they can avoid the wandering monsters by taking the road less traveled, but they risk getting lost in the wilderness. It would also give DMs a took to 'raise the stakes' for particularly dangerous wilderness zones: "The party has now entered Mirkwood Forest, so you have to check for both getting lost and wandering monsters!" That's an interesting idea! It works for "wilderness" which already has paths and/or roads - true wilderness doesn't have that. Unless we do it differently in true wilderness, similar to Outdoor Survival - either roll for wandering monsters (because you take a quick route which is easy to travel) or risk injury (because you take the dangerous route which most monsters will want to avoid). I guess in true wilderness there's mostly the danger of getting lost?
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Post by Mushgnome on Oct 10, 2022 9:13:50 GMT -6
Yeah I'm not sure how it would all come together in "actual play." But it's interesting to ruminate on this mechanic from Outdoor Survival that didn't make its way into OD&D: Letting each player choose which 'hazards table' to roll on.
Imagine if the party was exploring the dungeon, and the DM gave them the choice: You can roll on the Traps, Tricks, or Monster table.
I could see something like that being especially fun playing with kids. You could rotate through the party and give each player their turn to choose which category of threats the party will face that turn. The thief player might choose the Traps table to give his character their moment to shine. It would in a sense "randomize" the dungeon, and two different parties exploring the same dungeon would have very different experiences, based on the players' decisions. You could even simulate an 'Indiana Jones' scenario, where on your way into the temple, it's a patient game of finding and disabling traps, but on your way back out, it's a high-adrenaline game of fighting or evading waves of bad guys.
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Post by Starbeard on Oct 12, 2022 10:47:38 GMT -6
It's a good thought. I don't know if I could bite the bullet and let players choose which factor they won't be in danger of facing — after all, running into monsters is way worse than maybe losing a day if food or getting tired until you spend an extra day resting, or even getting lost (which typically just means adding 1-2 hexes to your travel, same as staying put for a day).
But I like using as much of OS as possible, and I've long pondered ways to bring those three tables into the overworld part of the game. Letting players choose what they're willing to face is a nice way to go, by assuming that they can take actions to protect against some dangers, but not against all dangers.
I'll have to keep thinking on this possibility.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2022 12:33:00 GMT -6
That link is dead, does Wayfarer still exist somewhere?
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Post by Mordorandor on Oct 13, 2022 19:47:00 GMT -6
But it's interesting to ruminate on this mechanic from Outdoor Survival that didn't make its way into OD&D: Letting each player choose which 'hazards table' to roll on. I think it's an interesting idea. As for why it didn't get incorporated into Gary's game play, we might lean on the sentences left out of your quote. "You will note that we give you a choice in the selection of the encounter for the sake of adding strategy to the play of the game. But in real life, travelers would not have this control over Wilderness Encounters. If you wish to simulate this aspect, substitute another die roll for the choice: a roll of 1 = Natural Hazards; 2 & 3 = Animal-Insect encounters; 4, 5 & 6 = Personal elements."' I imagine Gary being the type of referee he was, was more, "this is the threat, how do you deal with it" and less "what sort of threat would you like here?" I think we could simulate this approach in OD&D by modifying the roll for wandering monsters to be a roll for random event. If indicated, then the referee would roll on a table that would include one natural hazard for every two wandering monsters for every three personal elements. 1d6 Result Second 1d6 1 Natural hazard 1 = rock fall; 2-3 = quick sand; 4-5 = ... 2-3 Wandering monster 1 = goblins; 2 = bandits, 3 = ... 4-6 Personal elements 1 = lose one life-level, 2 = lose an additional day of food, 3-5 = ...
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