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Post by retrorob on Mar 23, 2024 6:41:59 GMT -6
For Original/Basic: 6x 3d6, roll-in-order For Advanced: 6x 4d6, drop lowest, arrange-to-taste
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Post by tdenmark on Mar 23, 2024 16:15:02 GMT -6
For Original/Basic: 6x 3d6, roll-in-order For Advanced: 6x 4d6, drop lowest, arrange-to-taste Same here. Perfect.
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Post by tdenmark on Apr 24, 2024 12:17:30 GMT -6
Alright, a couple more to try out:
2d8+2 = 4-18 range 4d4+2 = 6-18 range 2d6+6 = 8-18 range
Yes, I don't like them, but this is for the sake of completing the options.
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ThrorII
Level 4 Theurgist
Posts: 112
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Post by ThrorII on Apr 24, 2024 18:38:10 GMT -6
By far and away my favorite method is 3D6 IN ORDER SET IN STONE. No swapping, no lowering one to increase another, no adjustments for age or race, no nothing. What you roll is what you get. I am OK with 3d6 arrange to taste (as Castles & Crusades does it), or switching any two scores, or some such thing. These methods increase one's ability to customize the character without in the least inflating or distorting the six scores. But any method that inflates or distorts scores (such as the popular 4d6 drop lowest)? Anathema! Abomination! Heresy! Capital crime! I hate and loathe inflated or distorted ability scores. For our B/X game, we do 3d6 in order, for 3 potential characters. Pick the possible character you like best, then perform the limited 2:1 swaps that Moldvey allows you to do (for example: raise STR by 1 point by reducing INT and/or WIS by 2 points, cannot lower INT or WIS below 9).
4d6DL works for AD&D because the +1's don't kick in until 15 or 16 usually.
3d6 for OD&D 3LBB's work because the +1's are almost non-existent.
3d6 for OD&D +greyhawk really doesn't work, as it uses (what will be) AD&D +1 distributions. +1's or more are almost unseen this way. Which is either a feature or a bug, depending on your desired outcome....
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ThrorII
Level 4 Theurgist
Posts: 112
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Post by ThrorII on Apr 24, 2024 18:40:27 GMT -6
Alright, a couple more to try out: 2d8+2 = 4-18 range 4d4+2 = 6-18 range 2d6+6 = 8-18 range Yes, I don't like them, but this is for the sake of completing the options. I did 2d6+6 for my Castle's & Crusades Conan rules (based on Mongoose's Conan rpg). It worked for that type of game, where you want very competent pulp heroes.
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Post by geoffrey on Apr 25, 2024 8:23:25 GMT -6
By far and away my favorite method is 3D6 IN ORDER SET IN STONE. No swapping, no lowering one to increase another, no adjustments for age or race, no nothing. What you roll is what you get. I am OK with 3d6 arrange to taste (as Castles & Crusades does it), or switching any two scores, or some such thing. These methods increase one's ability to customize the character without in the least inflating or distorting the six scores. But any method that inflates or distorts scores (such as the popular 4d6 drop lowest)? Anathema! Abomination! Heresy! Capital crime! I hate and loathe inflated or distorted ability scores. For our B/X game, we do 3d6 in order, for 3 potential characters. Pick the possible character you like best, then perform the limited 2:1 swaps that Moldvey allows you to do (for example: raise STR by 1 point by reducing INT and/or WIS by 2 points, cannot lower INT or WIS below 9). 4d6DL works for AD&D because the +1's don't kick in until 15 or 16 usually.
3d6 for OD&D 3LBB's work because the +1's are almost non-existent. 3d6 for OD&D +greyhawk really doesn't work, as it uses (what will be) AD&D +1 distributions. +1's or more are almost unseen this way. Which is either a feature or a bug, depending on your desired outcome....
For me, 3D6 IN ORDER SET IN STONE plus GREYHAWK's or AD&D's ability score bonuses is the best of both worlds. I like for the typical/average character to be typical/average. A character with no ability score bonuses is typical/average. This allows for real elation when one occasionally rolls high enough to have one or more ability score bonuses. It is like reading one's lottery ticket numbers...probably not, but maybe...maybe... And if this ticket isn't a winner, perhaps the next one will be... (Of course, one can truly lose with a lottery ticket--$1 thrown away for nothing--but one cannot lose in character generation because, no matter what, after the character is generated you get to play D&D!) Contrast that with the jaded expectation, even the guarantee, of several ability score bonuses, and the consequent regarding of a character with no such bonuses as "unplayable". To quote p. 93 of Gary's DMG: "As with most things in life, the striving after is usually better than the getting...It must also be kept in mind that what is unearned is usually unappreciated. What is gotten cheaply is often held in contempt."
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Post by geoffrey on Apr 25, 2024 8:45:51 GMT -6
Another thought:
When one has an average PC (i. e., one with no ability score bonuses), one of two things will eventually happen:
1. The PC will get killed, and you get to roll another PC, who has the chance of better ability scores.
or
2. The PC will, in spite of no ability score bonuses, attain high level. In this case, what matter that my 16th-level wizard has an 8 intelligence? He'll smoke a medium with an 18 intelligence seven days a week.
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Post by geoffrey on Apr 25, 2024 14:42:03 GMT -6
A hypothetical question: In my campaign, ability score generation for both PCs and NPCs is 3D6 IN ORDER SET IN STONE. The chance of rolling an AD&D paladin using this method is only 1 in 1,062. Suppose a player made a big deal out of wanting to play a paladin, and said that my method was therefore "not fair". Further suppose I made him an offer: "OK, have it your way. I'm giving you a 1 in 1,062 gift: you can play a paladin without rolling, but each of his ability scores will be the minimum required for a paladin. Here they are..." STR: 12 INT: 9 WIS: 13 CON: 9 DEX: 6 CHA: 17 Do you think the player would accept those scores? I doubt it. I think he would say that was "not fair" and insist upon bumping up his strength, constitution, and dexterity scores. "But I already gave you a 1 in 1,062 gift!" "It's not enough." And if, in a profligacy of generosity, I agreed to let his paladin have a strength score of 18 "but the exceptional rating will be set at 18/01 rather than rolled", I suspect that there would be further grumbling about it "not being fair". It wouldn't be "fair" until we got to something as ugly as... STR: 18/63 INT: 9 WIS: 13 CON: 17 DEX: 16 CHA: 17 Such characters repel me. I far, far prefer letting the 3d6 dice gods have their way.
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Post by Porphyre on Apr 25, 2024 15:24:51 GMT -6
Most earlier editions
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Post by tdenmark on Apr 26, 2024 7:41:39 GMT -6
We all know the bell curve for 3d6, which is why it is the best. Here are the bell curves for the alternates I just posted: 2d8+2 4d4+2 2d6+6
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Post by tdenmark on Apr 26, 2024 10:14:58 GMT -6
I find it interesting that the curve for 4d4+2 generally gives you slightly above average scores, but very rarely high or low scores.
Here I did a some test rolls:
Character 1 13 11 12 12 11 11
Character 2 15 13 7 11 15 11
Character 3 12 13 12 10 10 11
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Post by blackwyvern on Apr 26, 2024 19:13:31 GMT -6
Yeah we used 4d4+2 for a while several years ago. We used B/X D&D. Almost all characters had 4 average scores and 2 +1 scores. I think one character had a +2 and a couple had a -1. I had a lot of players that didn't like the range of 3d6, read whined a lot when someone had lucky rolls and they didn't. So I used it to create more normalized characters. It worked so well they whined because all the characters were boring. We went back to 3d6.
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Post by Porphyre on May 1, 2024 9:55:20 GMT -6
3d6 in order, the Lowest score can be re-rolled. The Braver players who decline that possibility are awarded by 500 extra XP and allowed to swear "by Crom!" during the game. Three rolls, keep the best for starting Hit Points.
"Hopeless characters" (no roll better than 10) can be dragged behind the barn and shot. If the Player accepts the challenge, awarded by 500 extra XP and +10% bonus XP and are allowed to swear "by Mithra!" during the game (“God humbles the proud and he gives grace to the humble.”)
"Just so" characters (with subpar yet still okay scores) that players are unhappy with can be discarded and re-rolled as many times as the player wants, but all the rejected characters become the henchmen of the Player Character
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Post by doublejig2 on May 1, 2024 17:37:28 GMT -6
3d6 in order, the Lowest score can be re-rolled. The Braver players who decline that possibility are awarded by 500 extra XP and allowed to swear "by Crom!" during the game. Three rolls, keep the best for starting Hit Points. "Hopeless characters" (no roll better than 10) can be dragged behind the barn and shot. If the Player accepts the challenge, awarded by 500 extra XP and +10% bonus XP and are allowed to swear "by Mithra!" during the game (“God humbles the proud and he gives grace to the humble.”) "Just so" characters (with subpar yet still okay scores) that players are unhappy with can be discarded and re-rolled as many times as the player wants, but all the rejected characters become the henchmen of the Player Character You've given this a lot of cunning thought - LOL!
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Post by tdenmark on May 1, 2024 22:56:44 GMT -6
3d6 in order, the Lowest score can be re-rolled. The Braver players who decline that possibility are awarded by 500 extra XP and allowed to swear "by Crom!" during the game. Three rolls, keep the best for starting Hit Points. "Hopeless characters" (no roll better than 10) can be dragged behind the barn and shot. If the Player accepts the challenge, awarded by 500 extra XP and +10% bonus XP and are allowed to swear "by Mithra!" during the game (“God humbles the proud and he gives grace to the humble.”) "Just so" characters (with subpar yet still okay scores) that players are unhappy with can be discarded and re-rolled as many times as the player wants, but all the rejected characters become the henchmen of the Player Character If they roll an 18 strength do they have to proclaim "by the power of Grayskull!"?
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Post by Starbeard on May 2, 2024 16:15:44 GMT -6
What happens with someone unworthy utters Crom or Mithra's names in vain during the game?
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Post by Starbeard on May 2, 2024 16:20:46 GMT -6
As an aside, I've given similar concessions but regarding rearranging scores. You are allowed to rearrange scores freely, even between gold and an ability, but opting out gives you a free XP bonus.
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Post by doublejig2 on May 2, 2024 21:26:14 GMT -6
What happens with someone unworthy utters Crom or Mithra's names in vain during the game? Does anyone really care about these Cretins? Surely the dice will reward their impudence with declining prestige, hardship, and eventual mortal blow!
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Post by Porphyre on May 3, 2024 14:56:02 GMT -6
What happens with someone unworthy utters Crom or Mithra's names in vain during the game? "Better to be silent than to call his attention to you; he will send you dooms, not fortune! He is grim and loveless, but at birth he breathes power to strive and slay into a man's soul. What else shall men ask of the gods?"
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Post by tdenmark on May 3, 2024 19:22:51 GMT -6
If you use something other than 3d6 down the line, why not just roll 1d6+17 6 times? Discard all rolls over 18. I mean if you're going to cheat go all the way.
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Post by hamurai on May 4, 2024 23:59:44 GMT -6
It's not cheating if it's a house rule To be honest, I don't really mind people cheating their dice rolls in OD&D because the effect is minimal. Other editions / Greyhawk make high score more important, then it's an issue, but in OD&D I hardly use the scores anyway.
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Post by Starbeard on May 5, 2024 10:24:11 GMT -6
I don't mind whatever the method is, I just care what the players at my actual table are enthusiastic about. If they are fine with it, I'm even fine with mixing methods between characters.
In B/X I have both allowed and played the very odd character who had 18s in everything, or multiclassed in all four classes, or always had max hit points, or even combinations of these. Completely overpowered, but I don't think any of them ever survived past the first few levels.
The beauty of D&D's design is that play balance is purely subjective: the power level of PCs is entirely relative to what they're up against, and what the table enjoys. Weak character sheets don't matter if the DM always lets you find ways to avoid combat, and strong stats don't matter if the DM loves cunning death trap rooms, or insists on forcing the party to fight monsters beyond its capability.
The key is to keep it cricket. Whatever the level of random risk you all want from combat, that should be the baseline. Players who bring characters above or below that should maintain a gentleman's understanding that DM will try to adjust the challenges accordingly, and the DM should keep a fair eye on whether the PCs are trying too hard or not enough for maximum enjoyment and interest.
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