Post by Parzival on Aug 29, 2023 9:07:42 GMT -6
As for using current tabletop games with D&D, it really comes down to what effect you’re going for. D&D itself is a skirmish level miniatures game, when you get down to the core combat mechanics. So rather obviously, you’re not trying to replicate that.
So then, the goal is to scale the level of combat up to a (representative) “army” level, where instead of individuals engaging in combat, the player is controlling bodies of troops acting as cohesive units. This is basically the conceit of most tabletop miniatures games, where the combat is designed around base size and assumed general capabilities of a given troop type. Miniature scale comes in when trying to assign such considerations as “realistic” ranges and what not, but let’s be honest— there’s really no tabletop game where the ranges are remotely realistic, simply due to the limitations of playing space. So at this point it becomes more about “look and feel” of a given rule system than anything involving realism.
War Machine, the Mentzer/Allston mass combat system, is not a tabletop miniatures game. It’s an abstraction meant to serve as a quick way to resolve battles with massive numbers of troops without pursuing the details of any battle itself. It’s for domain play where the emphasis is not on actual battle but on intrigue, adventuring to support a battle’s outcome, and similar considerations. It’s a way of having the outcome be in question rather than just the declaration of the DM. It’s not really a wargame so much as a system to quickly and abstractly handle a war within the roleplaying game that is D&D.
Battlesystem, on the other hand, is very much a tabletop miniatures wargame. The participating armies are divided into units, typically with more than one figure on a base. The figures represent the capabilities of the unit, but not the actual numbers of individuals within it (for the most part— particularly large creatures as dragons and giants are typically a 1:1 representation— a lone individual represented by a lone figure. Battlesystem is designed to incorporate the existence of PCs as battlefield entities and to allow for the magic spells and other magical effects which are part of D&D.
Warhammer is pretty much in that same vein, but has its own mythos which departs from D&D’s expectations, with magic and magical effects that are different from D&D’s (though certain common tropes are still present.)
Warmaster, my current favorite, is a unit system, but the units are assumed to be massive bodies of troops of hundreds or thousands of men. Obviously, having this situation at 1:1 for the figures is not gonna happen! So the scale is 10mm (though 6mm and even 15mm are sometimes used), with a unit typically consisting of 30-36 figures mounted in 2x5 or 2x6 ranks on three rectangular bases (10-12 figs per base). Overall, the representation is probably 1:10. Again, certain large critters are assumed to be 1:1. There are two variants of Warmaster— one set in GW’s Warhammer “Old World” setting, the other The Battle of Five Armies (Bo5A) which is designed for the Middle-Earth setting (though without Sauron, the Nazgûl, or the One Ring). The latter was only released as a boxed set with supplemental metal miniatures. Neither are currently in print, but you can find the rules for Warmaster (legit) through Rick Priestley’s sites on the web. Alas, Bo5A isn’t available except from eBay and the like. There are fan revisions of Warmaster freely (and legitimately) available on the web. For the record, the current Hail Caesar/Black Powder historical rules from Warlord Games are based on the Warmaster structure, but modified for larger scales.
In any case, there’s no reason that Warmaster couldn’t be used for a D&D type setting, though you’d have to work out the capabilities of various D&D- unique troops and monsters yourself. And Warmaster deliberately limits the effects of magic in mass combat in order to emphasize maneuver and tactics as more essential to the outcome. There is no provision in Warmaster for PCs on the battlefield. The closest approximation are “hero” and “wizard” figures who only exists as command and control elements which can boost a given unit’s abilities marginally. Their primary function, however, is simply to attempt to order units to move according to player preference rather than in a strict form dependent on the proximity of enemy forces. As such the heroes are not subject to individual attack and, with the exception of spells, cannot independently attack anything on the battlefield. This, of course, goes very much against the concept of D&D and its emphasis on the PC as a powerful combat presence.
Another popular fantasy game is Hordes of the Things (HOTT), which is based on DBA, a rules-light system for ancient and medieval combat. In it the units are classed solely by generic troop types— “Blades,” “Spears” “Pikes” with specialty fantasy types— “Lurkers,” “Flyers,” etc.. The unit types are compared when in melee or missile range, with different conflict combinations affecting die rolls and thus determining outcomes. I’m less familiar with this system, but I’m fairly certain it’s not built with PCs in mind at all.
There are many, many other fantasy games systems, and I’m not familiar enough with any of them to comment on how closely they might fit with D&D.
Of course, if you want the pure marriage, Chainmail or Battlesystem are your best picks.
So then, the goal is to scale the level of combat up to a (representative) “army” level, where instead of individuals engaging in combat, the player is controlling bodies of troops acting as cohesive units. This is basically the conceit of most tabletop miniatures games, where the combat is designed around base size and assumed general capabilities of a given troop type. Miniature scale comes in when trying to assign such considerations as “realistic” ranges and what not, but let’s be honest— there’s really no tabletop game where the ranges are remotely realistic, simply due to the limitations of playing space. So at this point it becomes more about “look and feel” of a given rule system than anything involving realism.
War Machine, the Mentzer/Allston mass combat system, is not a tabletop miniatures game. It’s an abstraction meant to serve as a quick way to resolve battles with massive numbers of troops without pursuing the details of any battle itself. It’s for domain play where the emphasis is not on actual battle but on intrigue, adventuring to support a battle’s outcome, and similar considerations. It’s a way of having the outcome be in question rather than just the declaration of the DM. It’s not really a wargame so much as a system to quickly and abstractly handle a war within the roleplaying game that is D&D.
Battlesystem, on the other hand, is very much a tabletop miniatures wargame. The participating armies are divided into units, typically with more than one figure on a base. The figures represent the capabilities of the unit, but not the actual numbers of individuals within it (for the most part— particularly large creatures as dragons and giants are typically a 1:1 representation— a lone individual represented by a lone figure. Battlesystem is designed to incorporate the existence of PCs as battlefield entities and to allow for the magic spells and other magical effects which are part of D&D.
Warhammer is pretty much in that same vein, but has its own mythos which departs from D&D’s expectations, with magic and magical effects that are different from D&D’s (though certain common tropes are still present.)
Warmaster, my current favorite, is a unit system, but the units are assumed to be massive bodies of troops of hundreds or thousands of men. Obviously, having this situation at 1:1 for the figures is not gonna happen! So the scale is 10mm (though 6mm and even 15mm are sometimes used), with a unit typically consisting of 30-36 figures mounted in 2x5 or 2x6 ranks on three rectangular bases (10-12 figs per base). Overall, the representation is probably 1:10. Again, certain large critters are assumed to be 1:1. There are two variants of Warmaster— one set in GW’s Warhammer “Old World” setting, the other The Battle of Five Armies (Bo5A) which is designed for the Middle-Earth setting (though without Sauron, the Nazgûl, or the One Ring). The latter was only released as a boxed set with supplemental metal miniatures. Neither are currently in print, but you can find the rules for Warmaster (legit) through Rick Priestley’s sites on the web. Alas, Bo5A isn’t available except from eBay and the like. There are fan revisions of Warmaster freely (and legitimately) available on the web. For the record, the current Hail Caesar/Black Powder historical rules from Warlord Games are based on the Warmaster structure, but modified for larger scales.
In any case, there’s no reason that Warmaster couldn’t be used for a D&D type setting, though you’d have to work out the capabilities of various D&D- unique troops and monsters yourself. And Warmaster deliberately limits the effects of magic in mass combat in order to emphasize maneuver and tactics as more essential to the outcome. There is no provision in Warmaster for PCs on the battlefield. The closest approximation are “hero” and “wizard” figures who only exists as command and control elements which can boost a given unit’s abilities marginally. Their primary function, however, is simply to attempt to order units to move according to player preference rather than in a strict form dependent on the proximity of enemy forces. As such the heroes are not subject to individual attack and, with the exception of spells, cannot independently attack anything on the battlefield. This, of course, goes very much against the concept of D&D and its emphasis on the PC as a powerful combat presence.
Another popular fantasy game is Hordes of the Things (HOTT), which is based on DBA, a rules-light system for ancient and medieval combat. In it the units are classed solely by generic troop types— “Blades,” “Spears” “Pikes” with specialty fantasy types— “Lurkers,” “Flyers,” etc.. The unit types are compared when in melee or missile range, with different conflict combinations affecting die rolls and thus determining outcomes. I’m less familiar with this system, but I’m fairly certain it’s not built with PCs in mind at all.
There are many, many other fantasy games systems, and I’m not familiar enough with any of them to comment on how closely they might fit with D&D.
Of course, if you want the pure marriage, Chainmail or Battlesystem are your best picks.
