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Post by geoffrey on Sept 26, 2021 15:33:18 GMT -6
This, I think, is a good example of C&C's competition: goodman-games.com/store/product/dcc-first-time-fan-kit/For $35 you get: 1. a big, fat (500ish pages), heavily-illustrated rulebook in softcover 2. a beginning module 3. a sturdy referee's screen 4. a set of 14 dice (D3, D4, D5, D6, D7, D8, D10, D%10, D12, D14, D16, D20, D24, and D30) That's a great deal for $35. It'd be cool if the Troll Lords offered for $35: 1. the C&C PHB 2. the C&C M&T (Perhaps this and the PHB could be bound together as a single softcover.) 3. a screen 4. a 1st-level module 5. a set of 9 dice (1d4, 3d6, 1d8, 2d10, 1d12, and 1d20)
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Post by tdenmark on Sept 26, 2021 15:41:38 GMT -6
That's a great deal for $35. It'd be cool if the Troll Lords offered for $35: 1. the C&C PHB 2. the C&C M&T (Perhaps this and the PHB could be bound together as a single softcover.) 3. a screen 4. a 1st-level module 5. a set of 9 dice (1d4, 3d6, 1d8, 2d10, 1d12, and 1d20) So you want them to lose a bunch of money?
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Post by geoffrey on Sept 26, 2021 16:54:38 GMT -6
Is Goodman Games losing a bunch of money by having that $35 deal? If so, why is Goodman Games doing it? I'm confused.
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Post by Finarvyn on Sept 26, 2021 17:52:12 GMT -6
Goodman does know how to make a sale, and their starter bundle is a great example of this.
Troll Lord Games could maybe sell a shortened version of the rules, if letting the whole thing go in an "entry deal" is financially a problem. Maybe have starter rules set (levels 1-5?) and a thin GM screen and one of the really old modules and a set of cheap dice. I would think they could throw something together to make a low-cost entry bundle.
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Post by mgtremaine on Sept 26, 2021 18:20:12 GMT -6
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Post by jeffb on Sept 27, 2021 6:10:31 GMT -6
Yeah. The Trolls did a very cool thing here during/due to the Pandemic by giving away the PHB in PDF*. But I wonder how effective it was in getting new people or lapsed players back into the game.
Giving away the PHB helps as C&C isn't very open (in a SRD/OGL way) to use like OSRIC, S&W, D&D, PF, etc- which all offer plenty of free ways to get the rules. Anyone can play C&C with an TSR era monster book, but it's still not a complete game. I think the "basic book" that is pared down, but includes everything one needs to play and run the game would be a smart move (as I said previous). Also opening up the game for creators ala DMs Guild would be a good thing. You don't have to open up the IP of Aihrde and such, but making it easier for average people to create content- Adventures, Classes, Settings, etc..would be a good idea. That said, I understand the business reasons for keeping C&C "closed".
*I have the print books, and hate paying extra for PDFs of TLG products. Yes, I know the arguments for how expensive they are and the extra costs involved with PDFs, but as a consumer the arguments don't hold sway with my bank account- If I pay $40 bucks for a book, I expect the PDF to be included in that price if there is a PDF available.
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Post by derv on Sept 27, 2021 7:44:52 GMT -6
This, I think, is a good example of C&C's competition: goodman-games.com/store/product/dcc-first-time-fan-kit/For $35 you get: 1. a big, fat (500ish pages), heavily-illustrated rulebook in softcover 2. a beginning module 3. a sturdy referee's screen 4. a set of 14 dice (D3, D4, D5, D6, D7, D8, D10, D%10, D12, D14, D16, D20, D24, and D30) That's a great deal for $35. It'd be cool if the Troll Lords offered for $35: 1. the C&C PHB 2. the C&C M&T (Perhaps this and the PHB could be bound together as a single softcover.) 3. a screen 4. a 1st-level module 5. a set of 9 dice (1d4, 3d6, 1d8, 2d10, 1d12, and 1d20) The Trolls do have a starter package like this less the dice and twice the price. The difference is the books are HC. Starter Pack
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Post by waysoftheearth on Sept 27, 2021 8:35:17 GMT -6
I went ahead and downloaded it, had a quick skim through the front sections of it. Well, it's 194 pages! I wonder when player's handbooks, generally, got so crunchy? Would it be more or less appealing to keep the player's book rules lite, and have most of the crunch in the ref's book? Anyways, it's clearly a beautiful, full colour, high-quality production. There's no denying that. I still feel like it could be more approachable with a rigorous revision and simply less text. There is less opportunity to trip up on more concise prose. Maybe I just can't manage these massive rulebooks anymore
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Post by jeffb on Sept 27, 2021 9:26:30 GMT -6
I went ahead and downloaded it, had a quick skim through the front sections of it. Well, it's 194 pages! I wonder when player's handbooks, generally, got so crunchy? Would it be more or less appealing to keep the player's book rules lite, and have most of the crunch in the ref's book? Anyways, it's clearly a beautiful, full colour, high-quality production. There's no denying that. I still feel like it could be more approachable with a rigorous revision and simply less text. There is less opportunity to trip up on more concise prose. Maybe I just can't manage these massive rulebooks anymore One of the "issues" with the C&C PHB is that it actually is the PHB and some of the "DMG". It has all the rules needed for play of the game, player and DM alike in that 194 pages. The other book needed is Monsters & Treasures which is obvious for DMs. C&C does not have a 3 book minimum like AD&D and beyond. The Castle Keeper's Guide is simply a big book of rules elaborations/options and advanced topics for DMs. It's not a needed core book by any means. But that is not terribly clear.
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Post by jeffb on Sept 27, 2021 9:36:58 GMT -6
This, I think, is a good example of C&C's competition: goodman-games.com/store/product/dcc-first-time-fan-kit/For $35 you get: 1. a big, fat (500ish pages), heavily-illustrated rulebook in softcover 2. a beginning module 3. a sturdy referee's screen 4. a set of 14 dice (D3, D4, D5, D6, D7, D8, D10, D%10, D12, D14, D16, D20, D24, and D30) That's a great deal for $35. It'd be cool if the Troll Lords offered for $35: 1. the C&C PHB 2. the C&C M&T (Perhaps this and the PHB could be bound together as a single softcover.) 3. a screen 4. a 1st-level module 5. a set of 9 dice (1d4, 3d6, 1d8, 2d10, 1d12, and 1d20) The Trolls do have a starter package like this less the dice and twice the price. The difference is the books are HC. Starter PackAnd, In all fairness, the DCC RPG book is pretty lean despite it's page count. You are paying for pretty big font (yay for my eyes!) and A LOT of artwork. The actual rules content is low (and most of it is in the spell descriptions). You are getting almost no monsters, no magic items, and other content that generally comes in an all in one RPG book. The C&C package has way more information packed into similar page count- especially the newest M&T which is a compilation of monsters from nearly the entire product line (i.e. it's Like MMI/II and Fiend Folio, all in one). And yep, Hardcover too. Also Assault on Blacktooth Ridge (A1) is a pretty great sandbox adventure with plenty of material presented (it's been constantly updated over the years with expansion material) AND offers quite a bit for the Referee to make their own adventures with. Much more product value for your $ than your typical DCC RPG adventure which is one and done.
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Post by Starbeard on Sept 27, 2021 17:47:06 GMT -6
Conventions, sadly, are dying a slow death.... Note I'm saying this with some sadness. I personally LOVE conventions and want them to roar back, but the Internet, as it's done with so many brick and mortar stores, is hurting them both as a part of the business AND as a means to get seen by new players. Seems so strange to me. I mean, I understand that internet sales can easily outstrip what you would make at a con with a fraction of the effort. And maybe kickstarter is the new normal for early release. I just can't see the internet being the primary place where a person is introduced to a new system though. That's one of the reasons why I go to cons, to try out new stuff before I invest. Granted I'm mostly talking about wargames here. That's more to do with my interests and lack of need for anything new in rpg's. Otherwise, I would approach them similarly. If what you say is true, I have to wonder if the hobby/sales are mostly made up of collectors. On the other hand, I might just be out of touch with the direction the hobby is currently taking As an irrelevant aside, I've always thought the industry was mostly made up of collectors since at least the 90s. Growing up the most common RPG fan I knew (myself included) would habitually buy games and splatbooks off the shelf, spend a month making characters, eagerly talk to his friends about getting a session together that never materialized, and then never do anything else with it. I honestly can't imagine that every copy of GURPS ever sold equates to one person who has played a legit session of GURPS. As for wargames, you might be onto something. I know that wargames and miniatures are still something I buy frequently at the shop when browsing, but I'm not sure if I could put a button on the last time I bought RPG materials at a shop, and I think I've bought RPG stuff at a convention exactly once.
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Post by waysoftheearth on Sept 27, 2021 18:20:39 GMT -6
Okay, so I can't help myself. I went ahead and made some notes on the first para of the C&C Creating a Character section. It's probably the first part a lot of players would jump into with the serious intent of figuring out how to play. I guess this is mostly a time-waster but who knows? Maybe there is a tiny chance it might be useful to someone somehow. Anyways, all intended with a constructive outlook. There's no name for the illness I have, but I actually enjoy this kind of thing. Please excuse me Text with note/comment markers: With the exception of the Castle Keeper [1], each person playing [2] Castles & Crusades creates a character to use during the game [3]. To create this character, [4]the player begins by simply imagining [5] the type [6] of character [7] he or she desires to play [8], be it a wandering [9] barbarian, reclusive [10]wizard, traveling [11] dwarf, noble elf, a dastardly villain or virtuous knight. The player begins [12] by generating attribute scores with dice rolls [13]. Attribute scores define [14] the character’s physical and mental traits [15]. Next, the player chooses a class [16], or profession [17], for the character [18] that best fits how the character is imagined [19]. In the same manner [20], the player chooses a race which best fits both the persona [21] and class desired [22]. Lastly, the player fills in the details: examples include technical game-related aspects of the character, [23] such as combat bonuses, as well as the character’s persona [24] and history [25]. These steps are outlined below and detailed in their appropriate sections [26]. Notes/comments: 1. Qualifier precedes the main article. 2. Simplify. "each person playing" -> "each player". 3. Clarify. "to USE during the game" -> "to PLAY in the game". 4. Unnecessary. Delete "To create this character". 5. The player "BEGINS SIMPLY by imagining..." rather than "begins by simply imagining...". Beginning simply is the point. It's not the same thing as simply imagining. 6. TYPES of characters are undefined at this point. "type" appears to be a synonym for character class, which is an important game noun to introduce early. Genuine beginners will not be thinking in terms of PC classes. They can probably conceptualise fictional characters or archetypes such as Arthur, Merlin, Snow White, Batman, Catwoman, etc. How C&C character classes represent these fictional concepts is an important, C&C-specific, construction. It can't be assumed knowledge at this point in the text. 7. Echo. "Character" appears nine words previously. "Character" also appears nine times in this paragraph. Use judiciously. 8. Simplify. "...the type of character he or she desires to play" -> "...who the character is". 9. "Wandering" is an odd choice. Barbarians are typically fierce, wild, free etc. "Wandering" implies more itinerant, lost, zen, or similar. 10. "Reclusive" isn't particularly adventurous. An enigmatic, preternatural, or commanding wizard might be more exciting? 11. Echo. Travelling and wandering are too similar. Moreover, don't dwarfs have more defining racial traits? 12. Echo. The player already "begins" two sentences earlier. 13. Simplify. The player will dice for attribute scores. 14. Clarify. Attributes are the character's physical/mental traits. Attribute scores are the character's rank in those attributes. Not the same. 15. Echo. "trait" is a synonym for "attribute". See also point 14. Simplify -> "Numerical scores rank the character's physical and mental attributes." 16. "class" is an important game noun, but is indistinguishable from the other prose here. Emphasise character class. 17. "Profession" is a clarification rather than an option. The player chooses a class (which is like a profession), rather than the player chooses a class OR chooses a profession. Classes and professions aren't really the same thing and shouldn't be conflated. 18. Delete "for the character". 19. "...that best fits how the character is imagined." Awkward. Simplify. 20. Unnecessary. Delete "In the same manner". 21. "Persona" is undefined at this point. Is it a synonym for "character"? Or is it a character's personality? How does a race "fit" a persona? 22. We dealt with class selection in the previous sentence. It's now unclear whether race is somehow linked to, or restricted by, choice of class. 23. Delete "examples include technical game-related aspects of the character". It is confusing (what are these intimidating "technical game-related aspects"?). The remainder of the sentence is referred to as "Fleshing out the Character" further down on the same page. Should be consistent here. 24. "Persona" again. What is it? Where does it come from? 25. History. Where does it comes from? 26. "in their appropriate sections" is vague. Clarify that: These steps are outlined IMMEDIATELY below and ALSO EXPLAINED IN detail in the following pages.
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Post by derv on Sept 27, 2021 19:08:14 GMT -6
As an irrelevant aside, I've always thought the industry was mostly made up of collectors at least the 90s. Growing up the most common RPG fan I knew (myself included) would habitually buy games and splatbooks off the shelf, spend a month making characters, eagerly talk to his friends about getting a session together that never materialized, and then never do anything else with it. I honestly can't imagine that every copy of GURPS ever sold equates to one person who has played a legit session of GURPS. Since DCC was mentioned already I'll point out the fact that their marketing seems particularly geared toward a collector mentality. I'm not saying it's not a playable and well enjoyed system. Just consider those limited edition leatherbacks, module series, and coffee table retro reprints
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phantomtim
Level 3 Conjurer
13th Age Enthusiast
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Post by phantomtim on Sept 27, 2021 22:31:34 GMT -6
opening up the game for creators ala DMs Guild would be a good thing. You don't have to open up the IP of Aihrde and such, but making it easier for average people to create content- Adventures, Classes, Settings, etc..would be a good idea. That said, I understand the business reasons for keeping C&C "closed". I own some third-party C&C material. I haven't seen any created in years (that I can recall), so I hadn't thought much about it until I read this statement. Any idea how those 3P publishers were able to create C&C products? Did they need to reach out to TLG for a license?
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Post by jeffb on Sept 28, 2021 5:31:50 GMT -6
opening up the game for creators ala DMs Guild would be a good thing. You don't have to open up the IP of Aihrde and such, but making it easier for average people to create content- Adventures, Classes, Settings, etc..would be a good idea. That said, I understand the business reasons for keeping C&C "closed". I own some third-party C&C material. I haven't seen any created in years (that I can recall), so I hadn't thought much about it until I read this statement. Any idea how those 3P publishers were able to create C&C products? Did they need to reach out to TLG for a license? Yes, I believe that is the case, but I'm not 100%. E.G. Goodman at one time had some licensed C&C products that used the TLG trade dress (they were 3.5 D&D conversions). thegreyelf would be the best person to answer.
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Post by thegreyelf on Sept 28, 2021 5:48:49 GMT -6
This, I think, is a good example of C&C's competition: goodman-games.com/store/product/dcc-first-time-fan-kit/For $35 you get: 1. a big, fat (500ish pages), heavily-illustrated rulebook in softcover 2. a beginning module 3. a sturdy referee's screen 4. a set of 14 dice (D3, D4, D5, D6, D7, D8, D10, D%10, D12, D14, D16, D20, D24, and D30) That's a great deal for $35. It'd be cool if the Troll Lords offered for $35: 1. the C&C PHB 2. the C&C M&T (Perhaps this and the PHB could be bound together as a single softcover.) 3. a screen 4. a 1st-level module 5. a set of 9 dice (1d4, 3d6, 1d8, 2d10, 1d12, and 1d20) The Trolls do have a starter package like this less the dice and twice the price. The difference is the books are HC. Starter PackHC, full color, Snyth-sewn bindings, with WAY more info than you get in DCC and an EXPANSIVE bestiary (the current print of Monsters & Treasure is 368 pages of monsters, magic, and treasure). That being said, we don't really consider GG as competitors. They are actually good friends of TLG, and their core audience is somehwat different than C&C's, despite both being fantasy games. The two offer VERY different play experiences in their style of game. Our screens have been OOP for awhile because we don't want to support the slave wages paid to Chinese workers, and few printers in the U.S. are willing to do them. We have just found a printer who will produce screens for us at a reasonable cost, and are preparing to send files for the first new print run in ages. Our hardcover books are also higher priced because we use domestic printers who don't pay slave wages and who provide Smyth-sewn books. So if you're wondering how other companies keep their prices low, that's it: they print in gigantic quantities in China. We also use biodegradable packing materials and recycle anything we can. That doesn't have anything to do with cost; it's just something we're proud of. NOW, all that being said, we also have a "C&C Classic" starter box that is $49.99 and includes 5 booklets which give you everything you need to run the four basic classes (Fighter, Thief, Cleric, Wizard) and basic races (Humans, Elves, Dwarves, Halflings) all the way to level 10, including spells and monsters, plus a starter adventure, plus dice, character sheets, reference sheets, and a pencil, in a digest-sized box that's easy to carry around. I mentioned this further up the thread. www.trolllord.com/tlgstore/#!/Castles-&-Crusades-Classic-Box-Set/p/170725552 I own some third-party C&C material. I haven't seen any created in years (that I can recall), so I hadn't thought much about it until I read this statement. Any idea how those 3P publishers were able to create C&C products? Did they need to reach out to TLG for a license? Yes, I believe that is the case, but I'm not 100%. E.G. Goodman at one time had some licensed C&C products that used the TLG trade dress (they were 3.5 D&D conversions). thegreyelf would be the best person to answer. You are correct. Back in the 3.x days, Goodman Games produced a couple of adventure modules that used the C&C trade dress and were made for C&C. That was back when GG were producing strictly adventures, long before the DCC days. Green Ronin also produced a PDF-only Swashbuckler's Guide to Freeport that was C&C compatible. We have a fairly open C&C license for third party publishers to use. I could be wrong, but I don't even think we charge for it. I'd have to look into it.
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Post by mgtremaine on Sept 28, 2021 6:21:21 GMT -6
]There's no name for the illness I have, but I actually enjoy this kind of thing. Haha.. The upside is you are very good at it. -MIke
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Post by tdenmark on Sept 28, 2021 12:56:23 GMT -6
Is Goodman Games losing a bunch of money by having that $35 deal? If so, why is Goodman Games doing it? I'm confused. I know Joe. He was an inventory manager at Apple...ON THE IPHONE PRODUCT. He then went on to be a high level inventory manager at The Gap. He knows inventory, economy of scale, and he has taken years to build his business to the point that he can sell enough copies to bring the cost down. For a tiny publisher like Troll Lord that would be suicide. Printing 100 copies would cost $100 or so each. Printing 10,0000 copies would cost $10 or less each. But you have to be able to sell those 10,000 copies. Does that clear up your confusion?
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Post by thegreyelf on Sept 28, 2021 14:15:09 GMT -6
Is Goodman Games losing a bunch of money by having that $35 deal? If so, why is Goodman Games doing it? I'm confused. I know Joe. He was an inventory manager at Apple...ON THE IPHONE PRODUCT. He then went on to be a high level inventory manager at The Gap. He knows inventory, economy of scale, and he has taken years to build his business to the point that he can sell enough copies to bring the cost down. For a tiny publisher like Troll Lord that would be suicide. Printing 100 copies would cost $100 or so each. Printing 10,0000 copies would cost $10 or less each. But you have to be able to sell those 10,000 copies. Does that clear up your confusion? Again, Goodman (like a lot of companies) also prints in China, which keeps costs way down per unit, but you have to deal with everything that goes along with that. TLG doesn't support Chinese labor practices--and that is NOT a shot at those who choose to print there, just our personal choice--AND we can't afford to print at that level of bulk. Thomden is 100% correct about that. We've been around at least as long as Goodman has, but we don't have the industry and economic business background he does, nor have we managed to build the kind of fan following he has. Our fans are loyal to a fault, but they also don't tend to go out and proselytize like fans of some other companies do, so there's a lot of people who don't even know we exist. As an anecdote, even though C&C had been around for TEN YEARS by the time D&D 5e came out. I had multiple people come up to us at Gen Con in 2015 and openly accuse us of ripping off D&D 5e for the SIEGE Engine and say that WotC should've sued us over it. Even though we did it first (and the systems are only really similar at the most basic surface level).
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Post by tdenmark on Sept 28, 2021 21:58:08 GMT -6
We've been around at least as long as Goodman has, but we don't have the industry and economic business background he does, An interesting anecdote. I once helped sell his products at a convention and he gave me access to his spreadsheets. They were the MOST COMPLICATED SPREADSHEETS I've ever seen in my life. He explained they were very simple and that at work he manages a lot more data in far more complicated and detailed spreadsheets.
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Post by jeffb on Oct 6, 2021 8:10:56 GMT -6
Got an email yesterday from The Trolls- They indicated their online store has been updated for better presentation/browsing. Yay! What do you think? www.trolllord.com/tlgstore/
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2021 9:15:34 GMT -6
I went ahead and downloaded it, had a quick skim through the front sections of it. Well, it's 194 pages! I wonder when player's handbooks, generally, got so crunchy? Would it be more or less appealing to keep the player's book rules lite, and have most of the crunch in the ref's book? Anyways, it's clearly a beautiful, full colour, high-quality production. There's no denying that. I still feel like it could be more approachable with a rigorous revision and simply less text. There is less opportunity to trip up on more concise prose. Maybe I just can't manage these massive rulebooks anymore There's a lot of game theory and Gm advice in the second half of the book, since their version of the dmg (Castle Keepers Guide) is considered optional.
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Post by Starbeard on Oct 8, 2021 15:31:16 GMT -6
I went ahead and downloaded it, had a quick skim through the front sections of it. Well, it's 194 pages! I wonder when player's handbooks, generally, got so crunchy? Would it be more or less appealing to keep the player's book rules lite, and have most of the crunch in the ref's book? Anyways, it's clearly a beautiful, full colour, high-quality production. There's no denying that. I still feel like it could be more approachable with a rigorous revision and simply less text. There is less opportunity to trip up on more concise prose. Maybe I just can't manage these massive rulebooks anymore There's a lot of game theory and Gm advice in the second half of the book, since their version of the dmg (Castle Keepers Guide) is considered optional. I've never gone through to judge for myself just how true that really is, but I do mark their intent to make the PHB all you need as a point in favor for C&C. It's a good philosophy. The PHB should have everything you need to actually play: it is, after all, the handbook for playing the game. The Monster Manuals and DMGs should be optional books for refs who don't want to make everything up for themselves, or who want extra guidance on how to put their game together. I know 5e claims to take that same approach, but very poorly in my opinion. I don't think you really can play that one just with the PHB unless you shovel in a lot of work to create your own monsters & game systems that play well against all of the player facing mechanics of the PHB.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2021 15:54:07 GMT -6
There's a lot of game theory and Gm advice in the second half of the book, since their version of the dmg (Castle Keepers Guide) is considered optional. I've never gone through to judge for myself just how true that really is, but I do mark their intent to make the PHB all you need as a point in favor for C&C. It's a good philosophy. The PHB should have everything you need to actually play: it is, after all, the handbook for playing the game. The Monster Manuals and DMGs should be optional books for refs who don't want to make everything up for themselves, or who want extra guidance on how to put their game together. I know 5e claims to take that same approach, but very poorly in my opinion. I don't think you really can play that one just with the PHB unless you shovel in a lot of work to create your own monsters & game systems that play well against all of the player facing mechanics of the PHB. When the 5e phb came out, it was the only book for about a month and I started a campaign using just phb. It worked ok for that length of time because of the several dozen low level monster stats in the back. Wouldn't cut it for a full campaign, though.
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Post by Starbeard on Oct 8, 2021 16:02:11 GMT -6
Similarly, my first foray into D&D was with first edition, using just the PHB and DMG. I didn't get the MM until I think at least a couple of years later, after I had already generally moved on to OD&D. My monsters either used the simplified table in the back of the DMG or were made up. Now that I think about it, I'm not even sure the treasure type tables are in the DMG, so for a year I wouldn't have even known that sort of thing existed.
It wasn't really an issue, but having the MM certainly opened up the game and made many things easier.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2021 17:04:07 GMT -6
Similarly, my first foray into D&D was with first edition, using just the PHB and DMG. I didn't get the MM until I think at least a couple of years later, after I had already generally moved on to OD&D. My monsters either used the simplified table in the back of the DMG or were made up. Now that I think about it, I'm not even sure the treasure type tables are in the DMG, so for a year I wouldn't have even known that sort of thing existed. It wasn't really an issue, but having the MM certainly opened up the game and made many things easier. Different circumstance but growing up I don't believe I ever once used a treasure table or monster encounter table despite them being in the folio I had for BECMI. (Badly photocopied from some older dude at school) I pretty much just placed whatever I thought would be cool in a given location. It was never an issue. None of this stuff has ever been exactly balanced or perfect anyway.
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Post by waysoftheearth on Oct 8, 2021 18:09:37 GMT -6
So... what about the concept that "rules" are for the ref alone; players have a more immersive/less rules-intensive experience? Has this idea essentially gone away?
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Post by Starbeard on Oct 8, 2021 19:00:47 GMT -6
So... what about the concept that "rules" are for the ref alone; players have a more immersive/less rules-intensive experience? Has this idea essentially gone away? I don't think so, but also it really doesn't have to be the only experience. And, with anything at the level of complexity of C&C or less, quite frankly you can already get that effect by just not requiring the players to read the book period. In terms of the "less rules = more immersion" philosophy, that is already the superior option, so there's even less reason to split between an imaginary divide of content.
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Post by waysoftheearth on Oct 8, 2021 19:35:01 GMT -6
Hypothetical: What do we think of the notion that the referee establishes a scenario (such as a dungeon room) and the sides (the adventurer and the monster lineups), then sits back and watches/occasionally adjudicates while the players choose sides and resolve the entire combat between them?
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Post by Starbeard on Oct 8, 2021 19:49:01 GMT -6
Hypothetical: What do we think of the notion that the referee establishes a scenario (such as a dungeon room) and the sides (the adventurer and the monster lineups), then sits back and watches/occasionally adjudicates while the players choose sides and resolve the entire combat between them? Excellent hypothetical. I've thought about this a little before, and still can't decide. Essentially this is the classic wargame scenario, and on the one hand: I have played plenty of wargames this way and enjoy it, I have long been a vocal champion of handling RPGs as narrated wargames, and this is pretty much the most effective way of running a Braunstein or domain-scale Blackmoor with rival players. On the other hand: for whatever reason I still find myself a little resistant to just embrace it (not least because I still like having the invisible referee side that I handle and require the players to investigate on their own).
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