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Post by asaki on Dec 23, 2020 21:14:19 GMT -6
Yeah, I don't think I would use the Geomorphs for the first three dungeon levels or so. They're a little too complex for that.
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Post by aldarron on Dec 28, 2020 16:16:51 GMT -6
D'yer ever feel a lil' bit daunted when you gotta come up with a dungeon/room/monsters layout and the rules explicitly say that monsters will inhabit rooms only 33% of the time? And even then the remaining 66% would only have a 1-in-6 chance of there having treasures. The rest of the rooms are just..... empty. Nothing but rock walls and doors.
Now considering the tales of zany things Well, there is really no such problem, or rather it is a misunderstanding. Yes, 1/3rd of the rooms are not inhabited by monsters and yes, only 1/6th of those non-inhabited rooms have treasure hidden in them. That leaves about 21% of dungeon rooms that have neither monster nor treasure. However, no rule anywhere in 3lbb + supplements says any amount of rooms are "empty". The word empty does not appear anywhere in the text on p6-7 of M&T where the rules for stocking are given. Literally anything could be in those rooms. Consider a family of 5 living in a 9 room house with 3 bedrooms. If everyone is home and asleep in the bedrooms are the other 6 rooms empty? No furniture, no nothing? Of course not. Now mind you, I'm not saying the uninhabited rule is golden. It is entirely up to you (The Blackmoor bunch had no such rule), what number of rooms you have monsters, etc. in, but there is no rule for empty rooms.
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Post by kaiqueo on Dec 28, 2020 17:57:41 GMT -6
Remember that some rooms are supposed to be stocked with "several of the most important treasure, with or without monstrous guardians" In a Dungeon Level with 40 rooms, if you stock 10% of it with special treasure (4 rooms), and follow the distribution for the rest, you end up with 20 rooms (50%) without monsters or treasure. A good value for me, considering that: - There are tricks and traps to be considered. - Several encounters (half of them, maybe?) will be random, not keyed. - Like Aldarron said above, a unoccupied room without treasure doesn't need to be "empty" of other things that your players can explore and interact with (that are not necessarily tricks and traps)
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Post by makofan on Jan 4, 2021 15:06:44 GMT -6
Put in a planetarium, a wheeled Troy horse, a life-sized chess-board, a pool or drinking fountain, an abandoned cafeteria, reversed gravity, time dilation, the scent of elderberries... you name it. waysoftheearth, please sign me up. Seriously, under Covid-19 crisis VTT conditions, why am I not playing in your campaign? I run a lot of VTT these days, I sure would like to play. What you describe is my kind of crazy. Fight on! Sounds like my online Delving Deeper game on ways' site
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Post by acodispo on Mar 1, 2021 19:43:15 GMT -6
I like to put in an occasional "truly empty room", but if (on the other hand) I feel there should be some purpose (usually historical in a ruined dungeon) for a room, I have found Courtney Campbell's "Tricks, Empty Rooms, & Basic Trap Design" to be highly useful. Specifically I simply roll on the tables on page 4 and then make up my own description of the place.
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Post by waysoftheearth on Mar 1, 2021 20:08:04 GMT -6
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Post by doublejig2 on Mar 1, 2021 20:26:58 GMT -6
Courtney Campbell's Tricks, Empty Rooms, & Basic Trap Design is an excellent $3.59 (suggested value). Kudos!
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Post by Porphyre on Mar 5, 2021 15:10:00 GMT -6
Thus, the "1/3 empty room rule" only applies for "filler" spaces, after you have already determined the main features of the Dungeon, not for every room.
Also do not forget that, even these empty rules can be visited by Wandering Monsters when the players are exploring them.
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Post by oakesspalding on Mar 7, 2021 10:23:41 GMT -6
Why do many players not like empty rooms? Is it because the room is truly empty and thus "boring" (perhaps they feel that they have been "cheated" by a lazy DM) or is it because it's not quite empty - it has barrels that are empty or filled with valueless items or it has cracks or bumps or whatever - and therefore encourages players to essentially waste their time on a project that goes nowhere?
If I'm trying to fully map the dungeon level in order to more efficiently clear it out or get to the bottom of the mystery or closer to the Big Bad, etc., a completely empty room would almost seem like a bonus to me - you bash in the door, shine the light around an empty 20' x 20' space, see nothing and then move on, but you have added a piece to the map puzzle. How long does that take in real time, a couple minutes? The only thing it really costs you is a wandering monster check for bashing in the door.
Or is the problem that that is "unrealistic" - you're always going to have an old boot in the corner or graffiti on the wall, etc.?
As a player, I admit to sometimes feeling annoyed if I sense that I'm being pressured to check out every darn thing because there's a 1 in 3 chance that there will be a gem inside that boot or whatever (and there's also a 1 in 3 chance that it could be a scorpion so you have to first spend time poking it). Getting the feeling that the DM is sadistically randomly hiding things isn't fun for me. Is that heresy? I honestly don't know.
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Post by derv on Mar 7, 2021 18:56:21 GMT -6
It seems that anything that occurs too frequently can become mundane. Oh, another group of orcs. Ho-hum. Look, the quintessential cultists in gowns surrounding an altar. Ppffzz <exhale>. Looky-looky, the ol' secret door behind the statue trick. Surprise, surprise. Hmm, an empty room...
You know, there are literally hundreds of, if not more, castles for sale around the world. Portugal, Spain, France, Czech, Italy, Austria, S. Africa, Germany, etc. They typically run from $800,000 to $6 mil US dollars. Some quite a bit more. Imagine owning your own castle, including outer buildings and cellar.
If you do a search you can view pictures of these properties, their interior and exterior. Some are large estates. Others are rather small. Some are remodeled and beautiful. Others are fixer uppers and need some TLC. Some are fully furnished and others are...well, empty.
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muddy
Level 4 Theurgist
Posts: 158
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Post by muddy on Mar 8, 2021 15:54:43 GMT -6
The first map is more "Gary" because it leaves little unfilled space. The second is more "Dave" because there are long halls and more empty space. The second type isn't necessarily easier to map if, like Dave, you are fond of slanting corridors.
My maps have always tended to be more "Gary" for no real reason other than that was how we played and how I drew them, following the examples in the books. Filling up the page necessitates some empty rooms, though what empty means depends on the DM and players. I generally say "nothing interesting" is in an empty room, and they can ask more questions if they want. Maybe they need something to start a fire so I roll to determine whether there is an old table or crate there. Maybe they are looking for somewhere to hide, I roll for that.
As for speed of play, this it doesn't really slow things down once the players and DM are on the same page, although mapping and describing maps for the purposes of mapping seems to be becoming a lost art. It may slow things down a bit, but it is up to the players to decide how well they want to map. But searching an empty room is essentially an extra wandering monster roll. If there is a secret door, a couple of rolls, but only that one time. It really is about mapping skill and rapport/understanding more than anything else.
The advantage is the place seems more real as an abandoned whatever, the trek in and out becomes more interesting - losing a map is a concern, the distance to the entrance is greater, and there may be something now hiding in one of those previously empty rooms. It also allows some pacing, so that there isn't something extraordinary at every turn.
Having lots of places, some not terribly interesting, also seems a part of having a dungeon as a focal point of the campaign as opposed to a one shot. Finding the good stuff is a reward for thorough exploration.
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Post by ishmann on Mar 28, 2021 16:19:18 GMT -6
For what it’s worth, here are my thoughts on “empty” rooms:
-They use up valuable resources i.e. torches, lantern oil, time...etc, which adds to the uncertainty of the delve. -If used right, they set the mood of the dungeon via smells, spooky sounds, signs of previous monster activity...etc. -They serve as areas that the DM can develop later. The party assuming that certain rooms are “empty” because they have always been that way are caught off guard when a Medusa, or other nasty monster decided to make the room their lair. -You can always use the results from random tables to liven up an empty room. You could even let the players roll to see what is there. -Rooms take time to explore. The more you explore, the greater chance you have of encountering a wandering monster. Which also uses up valuable resources (spells, hit points...etc.) -Monsters can use them to set up ambushes or avoid the party. Since the dungeon is their home turf they would be able to use this knowledge to their advantage. -An empty room could serve as a base of operations, or camping area for the party. Maybe the party is able to hide supplies inside the room, to maximize the amount of time they can spend in the dungeon -They can be used to foreshadow upcoming encounters. Maybe there is some graffiti on the wall from a nearby Orc tribe telling intruders to beware. -They can also be used to mislead the party. Maybe a local kobold tribe knows some Orcish and has written graffiti to mislead the party that Orcs are nearby. Or, lure them into a trap (see above point)
In my limited experience it is the responsibility of the DM to make the dungeon a living place (easier said than done I’m sure). If used right empty rooms would be a great tool to convey this. That way the PCs know that dungeon life goes on. Even when they’re not there.
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Post by badger2305 on Apr 8, 2021 17:23:11 GMT -6
Here's an interesting comment on this subject, from "Monsters Mild and Malign" by Don Turnbull, page 15-16 White Dwarf #4, Dec/Jan 1977/8:
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Post by howandwhy99 on Apr 8, 2021 22:17:07 GMT -6
Sometimes an empty room is just an empty room and I'm okay with that. This does not mean I am okay with the likes of Dragon Mountain. But the world thankfully is not full to the brim. We can have places for rest and respite. Sometimes a little space is just what the players want.
I think a good idea for building a world is to think about its history. All of the consequences of what came before resulting in the contemporary configuration or situation as it stands. This goes for dungeons too.
For filling empty rooms with something, if it's important to you, try accounting for the history of everything that has happened there and left some clue / consequence within. A bricked in doorway may have several now-vinegar bottles of Amontillado and the shriveled skeleton of a wealthy imbiber of said wine on the other side.
A place has a lifespan of its own. And the events of that life are like the remains of trails of everything that has come across it. Dynamic worlds create stories to discover, clues. Sometimes these elements simply don't matter, but in the highly investigatory game of D&D I think it's best to give a good helping of elements which do, no matter how mundane. It's so much about being derivative. The makeup is going to tell inquisitive and observant players something of what has gone on, even if it's just expected and normal.
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Post by plethon on Aug 4, 2021 9:17:41 GMT -6
I'm a big fan of underworld flora, so in a lot of my 'empty' rooms I will put strange plants, mosses, lichens, slimes etc. of various hues and odors. My players really enjoy trying to figure out what these plants 'do.' So I'll say 'there's a red, blobby slime on the wall here," and they will spend ten minutes just smelling it, tasting it, etc. A lot of the times they don't do anything in particular, but occasionally I will give them some psychoactive effect. I'm blessed with players who are willing to put anything they find in the dungeon in their mouths.
You also can't go wrong with a classic 'mysterious sound,' like moaning, grinding under the floor, high pitched tones, etc.
Other than that, I like to leave abandoned workshops or living spaces, bits of odd furniture, underground streams or trenches, mysterious grates, etc.
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Post by tdenmark on Aug 4, 2021 11:02:08 GMT -6
I'm a big fan of underworld flora, so in a lot of my 'empty' rooms I will put strange plants, mosses, lichens, slimes etc. of various hues and odors. My players really enjoy trying to figure out what these plants 'do.' So I'll say 'there's a red, blobby slime on the wall here," and they will spend ten minutes just smelling it, tasting it, etc. A lot of the times they don't do anything in particular, but occasionally I will give them some psychoactive effect. I'm blessed with players who are willing to put anything they find in the dungeon in their mouths. I would never trust a DM enough to taste a red, blobby slime on the wall.
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Post by asaki on Aug 5, 2021 22:33:46 GMT -6
I'm blessed with players who are willing to put anything they find in the dungeon in their mouths. Quote of the year.
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Post by tkdco2 on Aug 9, 2021 22:53:02 GMT -6
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naiyor
Level 1 Medium
Posts: 24
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Post by naiyor on Aug 11, 2021 11:55:33 GMT -6
I'm blessed with players who are willing to put anything they find in the dungeon in their mouths. Quote of the year. I have never felt closer to a Board Member...I have players who will lick everything in the Dungeon... I told one they were Cursed and couldn't taste or smell anything...made them go to the local Priest and pay 500gp to have it "cured"...they continue to lick things.
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Post by tombowings on Aug 11, 2021 13:15:14 GMT -6
I need to start recruiting players again. Not one of my 14 players has licked anything inside one of my dungeon. So disappointing.
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Post by blackbarn on Dec 17, 2021 14:21:09 GMT -6
I have different thematically appropriate books laying around (Conan novels, Mythology, Fighting Fantasy gamebooks, etc.) and flip to a random page or two. Whatever my eyes fall on, I take inspiration from. It’s like having endless random tables to help describe everything.
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Post by Mordorandor on Dec 17, 2021 22:01:38 GMT -6
I have never felt closer to a Board Member...I have players who will lick everything in the Dungeon... I told one they were Cursed and couldn't taste or smell anything...made them go to the local Priest and pay 500gp to have it "cured"...they continue to lick things. Please disregard. Somehow, I managed to post when I had no intention. (If I could bottle this ability, I wonder what good could come of it.)
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Post by geoffrey on Jan 1, 2022 11:08:26 GMT -6
I have a strongly-held opinion on this topic, but I want to make it clear that I am not claiming to be "right" or others "wrong". The following is only my opinion. My D&D group and I have found dungeons with a majority of uninhabited rooms to be tedious. I discount the advice in The Underworld & Wilderness Adventures (as well as other places) to have lots of uninhabited rooms in dungeons. Instead, I follow the lead of Gary's modules, which (as a rule) are chock-a-block full of monsters. Some, such as the giants trilogy of modules, have monsters in upwards of 95% of the rooms. The most widely-printed and widely-played and widely-read module of all time (B2) has monsters in a little over 80% of the rooms in the Caves of Chaos. I have taken this as my own typical practice: Roughly 4 out of 5 rooms in a dungeon will be inhabited. The other 20% of rooms I fill with tricks, traps, treasures, weird things, or something trivial. A truly empty room is a rarity indeed. I'm gratified to learn that Greg Svenson in 1973 also liked stuffing his dungeons to the gills full of monsters: "What soon becomes apparent is that the dungeon as originally stocked is teeming with monsters - almost every room is occupied by a creature (or several creatures, more often that not), and frequently in spaces that challenge any notions of dungeon ecology." link: osrgrimoire.blogspot.com/p/review-lost-dungeons-of-tonisborg.html
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Post by dicebro on Jan 2, 2022 8:50:21 GMT -6
D'yer ever feel a lil' bit daunted when you gotta come up with a dungeon/room/monsters layout and the rules explicitly say that monsters will inhabit rooms only 33% of the time? And even then the remaining 66% would only have a 1-in-6 chance of there having treasures. The rest of the rooms are just..... empty. Nothing but rock walls and doors.
Now considering the tales of zany things that Gronan said he had encountered and some of the modules of the time(Wee Wariors' Dwarven Glory really loved tackling this), I get the impression these rooms are not meant to be barren, "nothing-but-walls-and-doors" affair but rather that every single room has to have at least something interesting. It can be as little as a dining table or a bedroom, but it seems like every story I hear from the past is that every room had some really interesting diversion in it. Some unusual piece of furniture, or a gadget, or a machine, or books of records, or a pile of useless sawdust, or a zoo, or casual non-threatening characters you can chat with. I'm just wondering if I really need to strike my creative juices for this sort of thing because it seems hard to think of incidental, inconsequential furnishings on the fly and use them to furnish so many darn rooms to pad the time before fighting monsters. It feels like there should have maybe been a supplement for this to ease the labour of thinking, but maybe people back then were much more eager to be creative than me, so I don't know. I try to have at least something interesting in most of them, even if it's a tiny thing. Maybe like a former prison cell with skeleton remains hanging.
How do you handle the problem of so many rooms that are seemingly empty? How much of your rooms are truly empty? Appendix I on pg 217 of the AD&D 1st edition DM Guide is my first choice for dungeon dressing. 😊
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Post by Mordorandor on Jan 2, 2022 21:10:06 GMT -6
I have a strongly-held opinion on this topic, but I want to make it clear that I am not claiming to be "right" or others "wrong". The following is only my opinion. My D&D group and I have found dungeons with a majority of uninhabited rooms to be tedious. I discount the advice in The Underworld & Wilderness Adventures (as well as other places) to have lots of uninhabited rooms in dungeons. Instead, I follow the lead of Gary's modules, which (as a rule) are chock-a-block full of monsters. Some, such as the giants trilogy of modules, have monsters in upwards of 95% of the rooms. The most widely-printed and widely-played and widely-read module of all time (B2) has monsters in a little over 80% of the rooms in the Caves of Chaos. I have taken this as my own typical practice: Roughly 4 out of 5 rooms in a dungeon will be inhabited. The other 20% of rooms I fill with tricks, traps, treasures, weird things, or something trivial. A truly empty room is a rarity indeed. I'm gratified to learn that Greg Svenson in 1973 also liked stuffing his dungeons to the gills full of monsters: "What soon becomes apparent is that the dungeon as originally stocked is teeming with monsters - almost every room is occupied by a creature (or several creatures, more often that not), and frequently in spaces that challenge any notions of dungeon ecology." link: osrgrimoire.blogspot.com/p/review-lost-dungeons-of-tonisborg.html Above all else, it is a game.
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Post by multiarms on Jun 28, 2022 11:55:48 GMT -6
I was thinking about this last night. Looking through Hargrave's early ARDUIN DUNGEON modules I see that the majority of the rooms aren't even keyed... really cool maps though.
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Post by doublejig2 on Jun 28, 2022 11:59:32 GMT -6
They had monsters originally, but the giant demon crab ate them, woah!!!
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Post by tombowings on Dec 21, 2022 0:16:48 GMT -6
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Post by jamesmishler on Dec 21, 2022 8:48:04 GMT -6
Whatever edition I've used, I always use the tables at the back of the 1E DMG or the various Judges Guild from which they are derived as a way to fill unoccupied rooms.
The direction of an entire adventure was changed when the party found a random shoe in one otherwise empty room...
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Post by dicebro on Dec 21, 2022 13:01:41 GMT -6
Whatever edition I've used, I always use the tables at the back of the 1E DMG or the various Judges Guild from which they are derived as a way to fill unoccupied rooms. The direction of an entire adventure was changed when the party found a random shoe in one otherwise empty room... Cast off the shoe and follow the gourd!
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