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Post by tombowings on Nov 13, 2020 0:48:39 GMT -6
Sounds more like an issue with the DM. I've never had that feeling in our 5-year old group so far... But I did have that feeling back in the day when certain inexperienced players wanted to give DM'ing a shot... Perhaps. I was the DM both times. This was a group of brand new gamers. When we tried out 5e, they were very focused on their character sheets. They concentrated on using and getting the most out of their chosen powers, skills, etc. I wasn't a fan. When we switched over to OD&D, they focused almost exclusively on the game world and hardly referenced their character sheets at all. I considered the change a major improvement. That isn't to say 5e isn't a bad game. It just wasn't for me.
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Post by hamurai on Nov 13, 2020 3:54:13 GMT -6
Now that's a problem I know from personal experience, too. The more special abilities players have on their sheets, the more they may get focused on them.
But I've had the reverse problem with OD&D and similar old school games with some players, too. They face a problem, look at their character sheet and then ask me (as DM) "Can I do X or Y? I don't see it on my sheet."
I guess it boils down to what players expect and what they're used to. Many younger players have played computer games before RPGs and learned that they have to use the abilities the game gives them. It's a common thing I notice in con games. As the DM, I tend to have them face "tutorial scenes" where they experience in a non-hostile encounter that not all answers are on the character sheet and that creativity often yields good results. During the first combat encounter I try to remind them of this and have them get advantages by being creative: including the environment for actions (like gaining high ground, getting cover, throw stuff ...). Many players actually enjoy this new experience and get into it, but some are too caught in the way they play(ed).
That said, I have problems with some newer game forms, too, because I grew up mostly with crunchier games. If a game is very free-form, I often feel a kind of barrier, an uncertainty. I guess that's what is a problem for some players, too, and the character sheet with its written-down "solutions" offers a certainty they can rely on.
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Post by tombowings on Nov 13, 2020 4:37:16 GMT -6
Now that's a problem I know from personal experience, too. The more special abilities players have on their sheets, the more they may get focused on them. But I've had the reverse problem with OD&D and similar old school games with some players, too. They face a problem, look at their character sheet and then ask me (as DM) "Can I do X or Y? I don't see it on my sheet." I guess it boils down to what players expect and what they're used to. Many younger players have played computer games before RPGs and learned that they have to use the abilities the game gives them. It's a common thing I notice in con games. As the DM, I tend to have them face "tutorial scenes" where they experience in a non-hostile encounter that not all answers are on the character sheet and that creativity often yields good results. During the first combat encounter I try to remind them of this and have them get advantages by being creative: including the environment for actions (like gaining high ground, getting cover, throw stuff ...). Many players actually enjoy this new experience and get into it, but some are too caught in the way they play(ed). That said, I have problems with some newer game forms, too, because I grew up mostly with crunchier games. If a game is very free-form, I often feel a kind of barrier, an uncertainty. I guess that's what is a problem for some players, too, and the character sheet with its written-down "solutions" offers a certainty they can rely on. Yes. Different types of players prefer different games. That's wonderful. Players who expect buttons to push aren't a good fit for my table. No problem. I'm sure there are other options available, and if not, he/she can start his/her own game.
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Post by Finarvyn on Nov 13, 2020 5:36:29 GMT -6
5E is modular so you can remove parts. Eliminate skills and the "focused on the character sheet" issue mostly goes away.
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Post by tombowings on Nov 13, 2020 6:50:57 GMT -6
5E is modular so you can remove parts. Eliminate skills and the "focused on the character sheet" issue mostly goes away. That's probably true. But I also remember one of my players asked, "What stops me from action surging more often?" I wasn't sure how to answer the question, because I didn't understand what it meant "to action surge" in the first place. Yes, I could have SBed an explanation, but I still would have known, deep down, that my answer to a genuine question was BS. Like I said, I think 5e is a really well designed game. It just didn't work for me.
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Post by tdenmark on Nov 13, 2020 17:50:15 GMT -6
Sounds more like an issue with the DM. I've never had that feeling in our 5-year old group so far... But I did have that feeling back in the day when certain inexperienced players wanted to give DM'ing a shot... You play D&D with 5-year olds? How does that work? I was playing Star Wars Saga when my kids were 6 and 8, I'm not sure how well it would have gone a year earlier o.0 Agreed. I have no idea how hamurai is able to run a D&D game with 5 year olds. For me that would be like herding cats. My kids at 8 had a hard time, but once they were 12 they got it pretty well and had a lot of fun.
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Post by tdenmark on Nov 13, 2020 17:52:35 GMT -6
5E is modular so you can remove parts. Eliminate skills and the "focused on the character sheet" issue mostly goes away. I don't know. I think it is way easier to drop some of the better elements of 5e into an OSR game than to play 5e with elements removed - 5e is a pretty tightly designed game.
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Post by hamurai on Nov 14, 2020 5:43:49 GMT -6
Agreed. I have no idea how hamurai is able to run a D&D game with 5 year olds. For me that would be like herding cats. My kids at 8 had a hard time, but once they were 12 they got it pretty well and had a lot of fun. See here You play D&D with 5-year olds? How does that work? That came out wrong, I guess. The group is 5 years old, not the players.
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muddy
Level 4 Theurgist
Posts: 158
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Post by muddy on Nov 14, 2020 7:55:56 GMT -6
I also like the advantage/disadvantage mechanic - it is easy to use and fun and intuitive for a player. Delta has a post about it, and is not so fond of it, however.
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Post by samvandenberg on Nov 14, 2020 8:24:05 GMT -6
The more I played 5e the more I disliked it. I wish I wasn't talking about it on an OD&D forum. Character creation is like a 1.5 hour long Microsoft Sharepoint set-up, with just as imaginative results. The games played like a kids' video game, or at best, like a boardgame. Way too complicated. Everyone was always playing from their character sheet. 1st level characters are way too powerful. A 1st level wizard can auto-fire "fire bolt" or whatever. All geared for cinematic effect, not simulation. Concerning "Advantage/Disadvantage", like others have said, the answer for a game with too many modifiers shouldn't be to roll more dice, but just have fewer modifiers (like, I dunno, OD&D!). I dislike rolling twice. It removes the gravitas from the determination.
Ultimately, some people want to play like an Avengers movie, and some want to ride the hills of Hyperborea. Personally, as I've matured (heh) and gained more in life, I no longer fantasize being a super-hero with super-powers. Instead, I want to enter a perilous realm and wrest from it adventure and glory. So, that is also the setting I present to my players. 5e is not designed for that experience.
The one thing in it I did find useful was its explanation of limiting free interactions during combat against the count of two. Besides that, I find it cumbersome and inelegant.
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Post by Falconer on Nov 14, 2020 9:00:27 GMT -6
Fair enough. On the one hand, it’s easy to avoid a 5e topic if you’d rather not post in it; on the other hand, we have a section for this, so, *whoosh!*.
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muddy
Level 4 Theurgist
Posts: 158
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Post by muddy on Nov 14, 2020 9:32:41 GMT -6
I also like the advantage/disadvantage mechanic - it is easy to use and fun and intuitive for a player. Okay. A question for you, then. Let's say you gave an advantaged roll during character generation. I've played with that idea for certain classes/races. Say, an advantaged roll when a Fighting-Man generates STR. If you use 4d6 & drop lowest, you've already given an edge to your PCs. So ... what, then? 6d6 & drop lowest three? Just curious what other players may think about this one. True confession - have no idea of how it works in BTB 5e, just what I've read in blogs. I hadn't thought about using it that way, and don't know I would want to. If I did I would probably be OK with roll five, drop 2, but I already allow players to switch one stat so they can play the class they want.
I find it an interesting way to handle unusual combat situations - fighting from the top of the stairs (advantage) or while being held b a strong creature (disadvantage) and so on.
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Post by hamurai on Nov 14, 2020 10:43:00 GMT -6
I also like the advantage/disadvantage mechanic - it is easy to use and fun and intuitive for a player. Okay. A question for you, then. Let's say you gave an advantaged roll during character generation. I've played with that idea for certain classes/races. Say, an advantaged roll when a Fighting-Man generates STR. If you use 4d6 & drop lowest, you've already given an edge to your PCs. So ... what, then? 6d6 & drop lowest three? Just curious what other players may think about this one. If you really need an even better score than what 4d6 drop-lowest gets, then I'd say roll 3d6, count the best two result and just add 6. Or 5d6, drop lowest 2. In our campaigns when we rolled the ability scores, though, there were some really good ones in there already. And you even get to improve over time. If you start out with several scores above 16, there'll soon be only "dump stats" left. What we found after giving all character creation methods a try: Point-Buy is the best for us in 5E.
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Dohojar
Level 4 Theurgist
Posts: 114
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Post by Dohojar on Nov 14, 2020 11:05:43 GMT -6
I also like the advantage/disadvantage mechanic - it is easy to use and fun and intuitive for a player. Okay. A question for you, then. Let's say you gave an advantaged roll during character generation. I've played with that idea for certain classes/races. Say, an advantaged roll when a Fighting-Man generates STR. If you use 4d6 & drop lowest, you've already given an edge to your PCs. So ... what, then? 6d6 & drop lowest three? Just curious what other players may think about this one. Advantage/disadvantage isn't used for character generation (and nor should it). It is a D20 roll used for combat, skill checks and saving throws. If a character is lying on his back with an orc standing over him trying to crush his skull, the orc will get advantage on his attack roll (rolling 2 d20 taking the higher roll of the two). While the character lying on the ground attacks, he will have disadvantage on his attack roll (rolling 2 d20's taking the lower of the two rolls).
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2020 14:37:49 GMT -6
5E is modular so you can remove parts. Eliminate skills and the "focused on the character sheet" issue mostly goes away. In theory it's modular but in practice player culture for 5e seems to lean heavily towards "rule of cool" and "I'll allow it." I had players actually try to change or dictate elements of my campaign. Not just bringing homebrew races etc. but more fundamental. Prime example: a young woman found a dragon egg which she took care of until it hatched. I described a curious and rambunctious little Red wyrmling. She decided she wanted it to be purple. She said I was mean and a bad DM for telling her it wasn't. This is a culture problem. It's a problem Wotc promotes with its handling of the product and the people it hires, though. I could go on but this is my exhibit A and prime example of 5e culture at a glance.
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Post by tdenmark on Nov 14, 2020 17:16:19 GMT -6
The 5e forum on ODD74. Where posts go to die.
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Post by tdenmark on Nov 14, 2020 17:16:55 GMT -6
Agreed. I have no idea how hamurai is able to run a D&D game with 5 year olds. For me that would be like herding cats. My kids at 8 had a hard time, but once they were 12 they got it pretty well and had a lot of fun. See here That came out wrong, I guess. The group is 5 years old, not the players. Sorry, it was too funny to resist.
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skars
Level 6 Magician
Posts: 407
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Post by skars on Nov 14, 2020 18:43:55 GMT -6
So many d20 (3rd edition) elements have been rolled into other OSR related supplements and offerings, why not the elegant offerings from 5e? Saving throw per stat, (dis)advantage, and inspiration are all good choices. Dice chain and other mechanics from DCC rpg are great too.
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Post by jeffb on Nov 14, 2020 18:46:51 GMT -6
The 5e forum on ODD74. Where posts go to die.
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Post by jeffb on Nov 14, 2020 18:51:04 GMT -6
I'd like to see the 3.X Saves/4E Defenses make a bigger show in OSR and future D&Ds. The fewer the better, for my tastes. And best for stat blocks.
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Post by waysoftheearth on Nov 14, 2020 18:54:56 GMT -6
So many d20 (3rd edition) elements have been rolled into other OSR related supplements and offerings, why not the elegant offerings from 5e? Saving throw per stat, (dis)advantage, and inspiration are all good choices. Dice chain and other mechanics from DCC rpg are great too. Perhaps you could you post a brief (one-liner) explanation of each for the uninitiated?
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Post by Vile Traveller on Nov 14, 2020 22:11:37 GMT -6
So many d20 (3rd edition) elements have been rolled into other OSR related supplements and offerings, why not the elegant offerings from 5e? My theory is that for most old school writers 3.5E in itself was of little interest, and offered only the possibility of re-writing the SRD to create clones of the original rules. What I'm seeing with the 5E SRD, on the other hand, is people taking the whole thing and modifying it so that it "feels" more old school. That may indicate that 5E is inoffensive enough to be house-ruled, while 3.5E only inspired wholesale re-writes.
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Post by tdenmark on Nov 14, 2020 23:44:28 GMT -6
So many d20 (3rd edition) elements have been rolled into other OSR related supplements and offerings, why not the elegant offerings from 5e? Saving throw per stat, (dis)advantage, and inspiration are all good choices. Dice chain and other mechanics from DCC rpg are great too. I quite like saves based on abilities. In fact I map them to the original saving throws like this: Death Ray or Poison = Constitution Wands, Polymorph, Paralyze = Wisdom Petrification = Strength Dragon Breath = Dexterity Staves & Spells = Intelligence And to button it all up just need one more for Charisma. How about saves against mind control and charms? And if you allow the ability adjustment to these saves you nearly get to how 5e handles saves.
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Post by jeffb on Nov 15, 2020 9:25:51 GMT -6
So many d20 (3rd edition) elements have been rolled into other OSR related supplements and offerings, why not the elegant offerings from 5e? My theory is that for most old school writers 3.5E in itself was of little interest, and offered only the possibility of re-writing the SRD to create clones of the original rules. What I'm seeing with the 5E SRD, on the other hand, is people taking the whole thing and modifying it so that it "feels" more old school. That may indicate that 5E is inoffensive enough to be house-ruled, while 3.5E only inspired wholesale re-writes. Agreed. 5E (And C&C, 10 years prior) seems like a more natural progression from the TSR editions. 3.0 was partly off the rails and could have been righted- but WOTC quickly got overtaken by the second wave of designers after Monte/Jonathan/Skip left and we got the enormous mess of 3.5. Too many moving parts. 5E as a rules set does not "offend" most D&D player's sensibilities- Old school, or otherwise. It's a pretty tight and well designed rule-set, "designed by committee". I've been down the "strip it back" road, and I don't find the results satisfying. It is still tight enough to cause issues with what I want to do with it. If I have to play 5E, I'll play it mostly as written utilizing the Basic Rules, MM, and a couple options from the DMG- and play to it's strengths as a tight and well designed game. :blathermodethinkingoutloudnoparticularpersonIamaddressing: My big issue with 5E as a ruleset is that they threw out the 4E baby with the 4E bathwater, and for every step forward in 5E design (which are mostly simplifications or re-wordings of 4E mechanics-not including A/D) WOTC took a couple or three back girl thingyfooting around sacred cows which don't make gameplay better or bring them into the 21st Century for that matter. 4E is a much more malleable ruleset, easily morphed and simplified or complicated due to it's consistency of systems, consistent math/formula, ability to mimic a variety of worlds/settings that don't require traditional D&D classes or subsystems (e.g. healing magic, or magic at all for that matter) and intentional divergence from providing "rules for roleplaying" i.e. narrative/lore, and only providing rules where rules are traditionally needed/desired. 5E still bakes things into the rules (Vancian Magic, reliance on having casters and healing magic) that upon removal for "narrative" purposes requires major re-writes/substitutions. I bought into, but never found an Alt 3.X system (unless one includes C&C) that did "old school D&D" very well- 3.0 was really the pinnacle there, despite it's massive flaws. For my $, I'm buying New games, because I want NEW games- not another re-hash of what has occurred for the previous 30 years. This has been my massive disappointment with 5E. We have TSR and OSR D&D (available in PDF and POD) for the original experience, and they do their shtick much better than 5E could ever hope to. I don't need or want "one system to rule them all" - I embrace the variety. For those who want a hybrid and feel the need to have "one true D&D", I'm guessing then 5E is probably the way to go.
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Post by jeffb on Nov 15, 2020 9:27:29 GMT -6
girl thingy! Bwahaha
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Post by tdenmark on Nov 16, 2020 18:09:38 GMT -6
I knew that, I just wanted to brag about gaming with my kids again. Me too. And my daughters learned in the last adventure that sometimes fleeing is the right option. Those duegar and their horde of silver were not to be messed with, I don't care how enticing that cart full of loot was (they did get away with a silver plate and vase that helped pay for the healing they needed at the local temple). I wish I had a dad as fun as me.
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skars
Level 6 Magician
Posts: 407
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Post by skars on Nov 29, 2020 19:59:38 GMT -6
So many d20 (3rd edition) elements have been rolled into other OSR related supplements and offerings, why not the elegant offerings from 5e? Saving throw per stat, (dis)advantage, and inspiration are all good choices. Dice chain and other mechanics from DCC rpg are great too. Perhaps you could you post a brief (one-liner) explanation of each for the uninitiated? The 3 most common elements I associate with d20 (3.x) that I have seen within retroclones and OSR offerings have been around: - Saving throws condensed to Reflex, Fortitude, and Will
- Attribute modifiers as presented in d20
- Ascending armor class
Skills, feats, subclasses, attack bonus, and all that jazz you can find traces of in previous editions in other forms. The SRD/OGl from d20 also made a bunch of this possible as aforementioned but these were the types of mechanics I was referring to.
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Post by waysoftheearth on Nov 29, 2020 22:33:41 GMT -6
Thanks skars. I guess I was really asking what the 5e features you mentioned are. I.e., what (for the uninitiated) are: saving throw per stat, (dis)advantage, inspiration, and dice chain?
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Post by hamurai on Nov 29, 2020 23:06:32 GMT -6
I.e., what (for the uninitiated) are: saving throw per stat, (dis)advantage, inspiration, and dice chain? Saving Throws in 5E are linked to the attributes STR, DEX, CON, ....; when you roll a Saving Throw, it's always an attribute saving throw, e.g. a Strength Saving Throw, a Charisma Saving Throw.... (Dis)Advantage is the mechanic that when some factors make your success chance better or worse, you roll 2d20 and count the better (for advantage) or the worse (for disadvantage) result. It's an elegant mechanic which saves the DM the time to think up a situational difficulty modifer. Inspiration is a "luck point" you get for good roleplaying. For example, you can use it to re-roll an attack roll or saving throw. The dice chain isn't from 5E, but DCC: DCC uses d3, d4, d5, d6, d7, d8, d10, d12, d14, d16, d20, d24, and d30, [...] In the dice chain, instead of modifiers, factors may step your die up or down the dice chain. For example, when you usually use a d20 to attack, a modifier might step up your die to a d24.
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skars
Level 6 Magician
Posts: 407
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Post by skars on Nov 30, 2020 7:46:36 GMT -6
Thanks Hamurai, the only thing I would add is that inspiration can be used to improve the roll of another party member, not just yourself much like a Halfling can lend their luck in dcc rpg.
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