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Post by Porphyre on Jan 3, 2014 10:38:49 GMT -6
Personally , when I came out with a rudimentary "skill system" , I defined ranks as "basic", "expert", "companion" and "master", but that's because I'm a mentzerite.
I also keep these skills "mechanic-free", and don't allow them to overlap with classes and general adventuring tasks (which was the initial subject). So, no "spot" or "listen" skills. I'd would use the list of specialist hirelings as a indication of the stuff that adventurer's are not supposed to do (i-e : they need a specialist for that precis task) ad thus need some special training to know.
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Post by sepulchre on Jan 3, 2014 10:59:47 GMT -6
Todd wrote: I think this is quite clever. It reminds me of the approach suggested in the AD&D PHB concerning how hit points are discussed during the game: In some campaigns the referee will keep this total secret, informing players only that they feel "strong", "fatigued" or "very weak", thus indicating waning hit points (34 PHB). ...others prefer the numbers as it hieghtens the tension and leaves less descriptive work for the DM. While on the note of putting the numbers in the hands of the players, in all fairness, I should also direct you to a skill supplement for Labyrinth Lord, a.k.a, the Classic Editions of D&D (Basic & Expert): index.rpg.net/display-entry.phtml?mainid=13900Porphyre77 wrote: Porphyre is getting at exactly what I am referring to above. Here's an example of a bell curve I thought of: 2 attempt beyond one's means or knowledge (possible fumble, e.g, pick breaks of in lock and irreverably jams it) 3-5 failed attempt, try again at -2 after 5 turns (the attempt at the beginning of the sixth) 6-8 roll again, but at -1. 9-11 success 12 success and +1 modifier on following attempt (that might be a little lame, but I couldn't think of anything else). apprentice/student: -1 modifier, journeyman: normal, master: +1 modifier, legend/artist:+2 Without sounding overbearing about it I will just say I think locksmiths, burglars, pick pockets, acrobats, even hunter/tracker/ranger what have you, are best considered in the same way one considers a dwarf, halfling, man-type etc. OD&D minus the supplements has abilities not skills and there is a difference. Skills (mechanics aside) are really mundane abilities that should be in the domain of hirelings/henchman, specialists who are called out for a particular task, but they are not really the stuff of heroes. That said, nothing wrong with giving your character a 'racial ability', nothing wrong with a leader type having a higher chance in 6 (just don't tarnish the lustre of some of the other the races), or even a leader type having an ability different from the rest of his racial stock e.g. pirate captain can read languages (treasure maps and such) 3in6, and certainly nothing wrong with resolving an activity in question on a 2d6 as one might imagine in Classic D&D material.
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Todd
Level 4 Theurgist
Posts: 111
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Post by Todd on Jan 3, 2014 11:43:51 GMT -6
While on the note of putting the numbers in the hands of the players, in all fairness, I should also direct you to a skill supplement for Labyrinth Lord, a.k.a, the Classic Editions of D&D (Basic & Expert): index.rpg.net/display-entry.phtml?mainid=13900 I actually have that but I hadn't had a chance to read it yet. Porphyre77 wrote: Porphyre is getting at exactly what I am referring to above. Here's an example of a bell curve I thought of: 2 attempt beyond one's means or knowledge (possible fumble, e.g, pick breaks of in lock and irreverably jams it) 3-5 failed attempt, try again at -2 after 5 turns (the attempt at the beginning of the sixth) 6-8 roll again, but at -1. 9-11 success 12 success and +1 modifier on following attempt (that might be a little lame, but I couldn't think of anything else). apprentice/student: -1 modifier, journeyman: normal, master: +1 modifier, legend/artist:+2 Something like that works just as well. I assume that any extra difficulty you just apply as a negative modifier to the roll?
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Post by sepulchre on Jan 3, 2014 11:47:58 GMT -6
Sorry editing the previous post. Yes, but like morale and the reaction adjustment table max modifiers -/+ should be no more than 2. The Delving Deeper supplement I imagine you will find instructive.
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Todd
Level 4 Theurgist
Posts: 111
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Post by Todd on Jan 3, 2014 11:51:02 GMT -6
Gotcha.
I'm definitely digging the 2d6.
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Post by sepulchre on Jan 3, 2014 12:00:44 GMT -6
Cool! Being a 'Menzerite' Porphyre would probably be good to colaborate with on the 2d6 mechanic. In the meantime, I will tinker with the one I presented above. Just as another note you might look into Kilgore's page, lot of clever ideas for Classic D&D mechanics to be found: www.lordkilgore.com/
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Todd
Level 4 Theurgist
Posts: 111
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Post by Todd on Jan 3, 2014 12:10:42 GMT -6
I'll check it out, thanks.
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Todd
Level 4 Theurgist
Posts: 111
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Post by Todd on Jan 4, 2014 19:58:58 GMT -6
Something I thought about: What about keeping the base chance at 1 in 6 but then modify the amount of dice used to try and succeed? Trained/experienced? Add one die. Difficult task? Subtract one die. Extremely difficult task? Subtract two or more dice. The pool of dice could be the character's HD (however one chooses to calculate it). Alternatively, maybe only trained characters use their HD pool (action pool). Everyone else just uses 1 die.From a probability perspective, the odds of rolling a 1 in 6 are: 1 DIE | ~ 16% | 2 DICE | ~ 30%
| 3 DICE
| ~ 42%
| 4 DICE
| ~ 51%
| 5 DICE
| ~ 59%
| 6 DICE
| ~ 66%
| 7 DICE
| ~ 72%
| 8 DICE
| ~ 76%
| 9 DICE
| ~ 80%
| 10 DICE
| ~ 83%
| 11 DICE
| ~ 86%
| 12 DICE
| ~ 88% |
The biggest single jump is going from that first die to two dice (untrained to trained?) and the overall advantages tail/level off at the higher levels. If you're sitting on 11 action dice, a move of +/- 1 or 2 dice don't move the odds much. Of course, the top can be capped anywhere convenient. And, depending on how HD are calculated-- 1 every 3, 4, 5 levels as I've seen in some fighting men discussion threads-- a character might never get more than four or five action dice in their careers. Just to reiterate: this can be all or mostly opaque to the players, I'm looking at this primarily from a behind-the-screen mechanics viewpoint.
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Post by Porphyre on Jan 6, 2014 14:44:27 GMT -6
Something like that works just as well. I assume that any extra difficulty you just apply as a negative modifier to the roll? I use "ranks" and "challenge ratings" in a, slightly different way: I compare le "rank" to the difficulty of the task instead of applying a "fixed" adjustement. -If the skill rank is higher than the estimated level of difficulty , no roll is required. -If the rank is equal, there is a roll required only if the task has to be accomplisehd under stress or in a limited time. -If the rank is lower, roll with a penalty -If the rank is much lower (a "basic" trainee undertaking a "Master" level challenge) the result is always a failure except if the PC manages to obtain some help (directions from a master, forgotten tomes of lore, etc.) If you don't want to have a "skill system", you can just compare the level of the PC to the "challenge rating" (in a dungeon , that would be the dungeon's level) As for the "bell curve" : 2 is a complete failure: not only the PC ails to the task, but the result is counter-productive. 3-5 is a failure , you might try again later - no adjustement applied 6-8 is a partial succes. This might mean that all the objectives are not attained. If you're looking for a simple "fail/succeed" result (open a door, find a secret door, etc.), it can be a delayed succes: no other rolled needed , but the succes will come only the next turn/tound. 9-11 is a succes 12 gives a succes with an additionnal advantage instead of a modifier. If you are picking a lock, for example, that would be succes AND managing to surprise the monsters in the room behind.
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Post by Porphyre on Jan 6, 2014 14:53:32 GMT -6
Something I thought about: What about keeping the base chance at 1 in 6 but then modify the amount of dice used to try and succeed? Trained/experienced? Add one die. Difficult task? Subtract one die. Extremely difficult task? Subtract two or more dice. The pool of dice could be the character's HD (however one chooses to calculate it). Alternatively, maybe only trained characters use their HD pool (action pool). Everyone else just uses 1 die.Another opion would be using "oppsed rolls": -PC rolls one d6 by experience level -MD rolls one d6 by difficulty level. Higher rolls "wins". A tie means partial/delayed succes or is adjudicated by the DM according to circumstances. The results might be a little "swinguy", but that could re-inforce the concept of the environment as an active opponent (and maybe give more fun to the MD).
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Post by countingwizard on Nov 12, 2020 10:30:06 GMT -6
I've been pondering about general skills lately. Having played with quite a few 3E guys lately, I'm hating the D20 system, for numerous reasons. The reliance on roll-playing, and in fact discouraging of problem solving is almost painful. However there are certain things that must be delegated to dice rolls, for game reasons. Surprise rolls are an immediate example, and so is finding Secret doors, and even springing traps. All of those rules are presented in "The Underworld & Wilderness Adventures", usually relegated to a chance on a d6 roll. While I do find this mechanic rather elegant, I do see some areas where a unified mechanic, or even scalable one could be desirable. For example, while I hate the d20 mechanic, having that fall back on, with provided guidelines is kind of nice. Furthermore the ability for players to improve those abilities over time is nice, and having some classes with those abilities highlighted can be even nicer. Being a convert from Runequest/Call of Cthulhu, I've been considering a d% system. This would be great as there's already a precedence, at least in AD&D. Lots of abilities (surprise namely) is presented as a % chance in many places. A nice chart with common percentage chances for various situations would be extremely helpful. Further the limit vs d20's limitless modifiers vs target number is nice. So my question to you guys is thus: How do you handle general adventuring skills? How do you prevent it from turning into "roll-playing"? Is it all in the way you present it, or do the mechanics really matter that much? Lately, I've been using the Midkemia Press Cities booklet when players want to get detailed about stupid stuff (imo) like skills. I'm coming around to it for a few of the things that matter, but let me talk about what the system is first. The Midkemia Press Cities booklet lists a bunch of mundane skills that tradesemen, craftstmen, etc. would normally make use of. The booklet lists them because it partly determines how successful you are working at a full-time job in the city. But those aren't things I care about. Skills range from 1 to 100 in rating. Normally you would need to pay someone to train you over a period of time and then you'd get a starting skill amount. In my game, since I want it to be adventure focused and not a mundane boorfest, I allow characters to have innate skill at anything they want to attempt. I'll usually look at the skill list and find a skill that closely matches what they want to accomplish, and have them roll to see what their starting skill amount is: (1d100 / 4) +/- intelligence XP adjustment. So if they had intelligence of 13, and rolled a 87, I would round up and give them 27 (22+5) skill. Normally after formal training, your skill would start at a flat (1d100 / 2) + 5. In my system, after training you would move to the higher amount. All my skills are occupation based, so example skills include: Farmer, Baker, Cook, Merchant, Horse Trainer, Hunter (separate skill for each terrain type), Ship Builder, Carpenter, etc. The way skills are utilized in practice are whether an attempt to use them succeeds or fails. So a character must roll d100 equal to or less than their skill. Right now, this primarily comes up in things like finding food. So if the character says they want to fish a stream, they roll their Fisherman skill and we see if it's a success or not. For things like finding water, I made up a Waterfinder skill. The degree of success is usually determined by how long they spent doing the task. If they were searching for food after travelling all day, they would only find enough food to feed themselves (1 ration). If they spend an entire day doing it, they find 1d6 rations. If more than one person are doing the same task and they want to do it together, they add the scores together and roll once. If they want to look separately and spread out their chances to find more, they roll separately. Encounters that occur take into account player decisions. It's a little interesting in how the skills make their way into the game. I run the basic three classes for example, but have created specialized versions of those classes such as Thieves, Paladins, Rangers, etc. Rangers in my game don't get spells, but they do start with trained skills in all the Hunter categories and Tracking.
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Post by linebeck on Nov 13, 2020 0:25:09 GMT -6
Something I thought about: What about keeping the base chance at 1 in 6 but then modify the amount of dice used to try and succeed? Trained/experienced? Add one die. Difficult task? Subtract one die. Extremely difficult task? Subtract two or more dice. The pool of dice could be the character's HD (however one chooses to calculate it). Alternatively, maybe only trained characters use their HD pool (action pool). Everyone else just uses 1 die.From a probability perspective, the odds of rolling a 1 in 6 are: 1 DIE | ~ 16% | 2 DICE | ~ 30%
| 3 DICE
| ~ 42%
| 4 DICE
| ~ 51%
| 5 DICE
| ~ 59%
| 6 DICE
| ~ 66%
| 7 DICE
| ~ 72%
| 8 DICE
| ~ 76%
| 9 DICE
| ~ 80%
| 10 DICE
| ~ 83%
| 11 DICE
| ~ 86%
| 12 DICE
| ~ 88% |
The biggest single jump is going from that first die to two dice (untrained to trained?) and the overall advantages tail/level off at the higher levels. If you're sitting on 11 action dice, a move of +/- 1 or 2 dice don't move the odds much. Of course, the top can be capped anywhere convenient. And, depending on how HD are calculated-- 1 every 3, 4, 5 levels as I've seen in some fighting men discussion threads-- a character might never get more than four or five action dice in their careers. Just to reiterate: this can be all or mostly opaque to the players, I'm looking at this primarily from a behind-the-screen mechanics viewpoint. This is cool. I came up with the same idea six years later. 😊
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Post by rustic313 on Nov 15, 2020 15:44:15 GMT -6
I use a 2d6 mechanic for this in my homebrew.
- Roll one d6 for every hit die. - Retain the best two and add them. - Add any relevant ability score modifier (mine range from -2 to +2). Monsters add their pips if any. - Characters with 1 HD roll 2d6-2. - Add +1 to anything related to your class.
I give fighters a HD every level, clerics 3 HD every 4 levels, and rogues/wizards 2 HD every 4 levels.
9+ succeeds, 6+ keep trying for environmental challenges. Alternatively it can be done with opposed rolls (tie go to defender). If every die in the pool shows 1 (snake eyes) something very bad happens.
The dice pool mechanic gives diminishing returns to more dice, but the odds of catastrophic failure go down as you add more dice.
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