Wooden vs. Silver Cross

[Zulgyan]

Do you make any distinction between the Wooden or Silver Cross holy symbol, or is it just swag?

Any 70s material (in a zine, module or whatever) that made a distinction?

[Zenopus]

Silver cross can be swung as a weapon vs lycanthropes in a pinch.

I could see giving a +1 on turning with a silver cross. But perhaps the silver tarnishes after such use and needs refurbishment (and the character has to pay the 25 GP again).

[retrorob]

+1 on turning undead

[talysman]

Wooden crosses can catch on fire. Silver crosses, not so much.

[Zakharan]

My players took to tying silver ones to the end of poles as a makeshift cattle prod against monsters weak to silver. That was the most pertinent difference, anyway...

[waysoftheearth]

Wood will float; silver not so much.

Silver will be devalued by fireballs and lightning bolts, but how these will affect wood is unclear.

[Deleted]

You give one to your ghoulfriend after five years, the other after 25.

[asaki]

I kind of like a lot of these ideas: boggswood.blogspot.com/2014/08/turn-undead-are-we-getting-it-wrong.html

Undead get saving throws against wooden holy symbols.

Plus, what everyone else said: wood is more fragile and silver can have other uses. I fist-punched a wererat to death with a fistful of silver coins, once

I can also imagine like in the movies, where a powerful vampyr could cause a wooden holy symbol to burst into flames, but the touch from a silver one could burn their flesh like acid.

[hamurai]

Concerning the Turn Undead ability I don't make a difference. It's a symbol through which the cleric channels divine energy. You wouldn't make it any different because of its size either, would you? I've had clerics channel that energy through an oversized cross in a temple, too. And if they made their cross with bones or sticks when in a hurry, I'd allow it, too.

In my games, the important thing is, it must be a symbol the cleric recognizes as a symbol of their deity when turning undead. It doesn't matter if the undead recognize the symbol either.

[Deleted]

Right. Like their spells, it's powered by their faith in their deity, or cause, or cosmic alignment. In theory they could slap one together from twigs and mud and while physically flimsy it would serve the purpose.

[tetramorph]

I use the reaction table for my turn undead. 9 = turn, 11 = dispel.

I subtract undead HD but add CL lvl.

So the silver cross gives a bonus to the roll.

I know that it sounds complicated, but I prefer formulas to tables, so it works well for me.

Fight on!

[Deleted]

One of the things I actually enjoy strongly about Men & Magic if you take it at face value without considering any clarifications that came later* is that you have certain items in the equipment that just aren't elaborated on at all. They're presented and we're expected to know what to do with them, so referees and players are left to interpret their place in the wider world of D&D.

Tangentially related to the wooden or silver cross is the mirror. It occurred to me just the other day while rewatching Dracula that the mirror might have yet another use besides avoiding the gaze of a Medusa or seeing around corners - it might reveal an NPC to be a secret vampire, because vampires don't have reflections! The direct mechanic is not referred to in the game at all, but it's a logical thing one could assume. As logical as any other thing. Sure, individual referees might say that in their world, that's a myth and vampires have reflections, but if one is strongly inspired by the fiction that inspired Gygax & Arneson, then a vampire is Bela Lugosi or Christopher Lee and this is very much the case in those instances!

In the same vein, in Dracula, Wolvesbane not only discourages the lupine servants of the Vampire but the Vampire himself, because he sometimes takes the form of a black wolf. D&D mentions specifically that Vampires are not Lycanthropes, but does one need to be a Lycanthrope to be susceptible to Wolvesbane? Again, up to the referee's interpretation of the world and fiction. Wolvesbane is in the equipment list and it's in some Vampire fiction, the same that also elaborates on their weakness to Garlic, Holy Water and Communion Wafers, so it's one logical use for it.


*Side tangent - it's hard to train one's self to do, admittedly. I learned on a more "clarified" version of the game from the early nineties and some of the elaborations on the vagaries of D&D are hardwired into my brain. For instance, I can't not conceptualize Gnolls as hyena men. I just can't. I try to get behind the Lord Dunsany version promoted by OD&D but nope. I hear "Gnoll" and my brain shows a hyena man. It's just in there at this point. Not a terrible thing, mind you. It is what it is. I digress howerver.

[Zenopus]

May 15, 2020 2:47:26 GMT -6 hamurai said:

Concerning the Turn Undead ability I don't make a difference. It's a symbol through which the cleric channels divine energy. You wouldn't make it any different because of its size either, would you? I've had clerics channel that energy through an oversized cross in a temple, too. And if they made their cross with bones or sticks when in a hurry, I'd allow it, too.

In my games, the important thing is, it must be a symbol the cleric recognizes as a symbol of their deity when turning undead. It doesn't matter if the undead recognize the symbol either.

Though silver does have special properties against certain undead (wights & wraiths), able to damage them, so it's not a stretch to extend the power of silver to a holy symbol. If nothing else, Wights & Wraiths might recognize that it is inimical to them and make them more likely to be turned. ("the gods help those that help themselves...")

It is interesting to speculate on why the Equipment list has a Silver Cross and not say, a Steel or Gold Cross.

* * * * *

Another idea I had was that wearing a Silver Cross allows a Cleric wielding a regular mace to hit undead that are normally only damaged by silver or magic weapons. Still a bad idea because they are likely going to be energy-drained, but effective for a last-stand type situation.

[Zakharan]

May 15, 2020 4:39:06 GMT -6 @ampleframework said:

Right. Like their spells, it's powered by their faith in their deity, or cause, or cosmic alignment. In theory they could slap one together from twigs and mud and while physically flimsy it would serve the purpose.

That's another fun quirk in OD&D's to-the-point writing: outside the Vampire entry, "Clerics vs. Undead Monsters" and wielding a cross don't explicitly go hand-in-hand. Perhaps a Cleric simply projects a divine aura, or even fashions a cross from their fingers!

[Zulgyan]

Well, it might not be stated in the text, but it is assumed you know about the literary / pop-cultural reference and you would understand it that way.

[Deleted]

Yeah. It's true that the rules don't specify that the object is held, but the foreword to volume 1 does mention that the game would appeal strongly to people who are versed in a certain type of fiction. For me, that included scenes like this, so even without knowledge of the clarifications of the Basic and Advanced sets, I would logically put 1 and 1 together on the holy symbols, at least in my own refereeing, but your mileage may vary. You're not wrong. It doesn't specify so your interpretation is logical, too.

[angantyr]

May 15, 2020 4:39:06 GMT -6 @ampleframework said:

Right. Like their spells, it's powered by their faith in their deity, or cause, or cosmic alignment. In theory they could slap one together from twigs and mud and while physically flimsy it would serve the purpose.

It worked in Tarantino's "Dusk til Dawn" and it can work for you, too!

[Porphyre]

what about gilded and golden crosses ?

[talysman]

Jun 3, 2020 15:34:09 GMT -6 Porphyre said:

what about gilded and golden crosses ?

They can be used to repel Vazdru and Cybermen.

[derv]

Strictly materials of prestige and distinction. The Acolyte acquires his wooden cross upon confirmation. Any respectable Vicar will have a cross of silver. Bishops on up will have increasingly embellished symbols- gold gilded edges, embossing, gem encrusted, etc.

[Deleted]

Jun 4, 2020 19:59:05 GMT -6 derv said:

Strictly materials of prestige and distinction. The Acolyte acquires his wooden cross upon confirmation. Any respectable Vicar will have a cross of silver. Bishops on up will have increasingly embellished symbols- gold gilded edges, embossing, gem encrusted, etc.

I wonder if a Patriarch of a sufficient level would have a Platinum or Electrum cross. That might even be a very valuable item for a heist if you're using the Thief class in your campaign. (Or have a particularly Burglarish Hobbit in your 3lbb party)

[gentlemanranker]

A couple of questions for those more knowledgeable than I.

Is there anything in the 3LBB that says the cross is in the equipment list as a "holy symbol"?

Is there anything in the 3LBB that says a cleric has or needs a "holy symbol"?

Is there anything in the 3LBB that says a "holy symbol" is required to turn undead?

In Holmes the only mention of a holy symbol was an interpolation by Gary in the Vampire description, put in after the Holmes draft. Holmes gives a slightly expanded description of turn undead but doesn't require a holy symbol. It's a function of the cleric not the cross.

Do you guys require a Holy symbol for anything? Or rule that it helps with anything?

GR

[Deleted]

The short answer to all those questions is "no". There's a lot of equipment that isn't described at all, or the descriptions are peppered in the other two booklets when relevant. I don't believe the cross as holy symbol connection is ever made, nor it being required to Turn Undead. This is one of those "up to interpretation" areas if you choose to ignore the clarifications from the Strategic Review and from the grognards who still run games as learned from Dave and Gary. The reason I use it is because these rules give me permission to draw upon my own imagination and my knowledge of fiction, and in my knowledge of fiction, Dracula is afraid of the cross and Undead are abominations in the eyes of the holy and natural orders. Thus, in my reading and in my world, a cross is a holy symbol and a holy symbol turns Undead. But no, I can't say some specific mechanic from the booklet supports this.

[tetramorph]

gentlemanranker, the entry on vampires makes it clear you have to strongly present a cross.

It is just implicitly assumed that you present a cross to turn away undead because that is what is in the literature and the B movies. Not everything is spelled out. The rules just tell you mechanics to resolve things. They don't explain the whole literary context of the fantasy setting you are trying to engage with those rules. Just like a wargamer might not have to describe why one has a canon. He would just give rules for resolving canon fire. The wargamer assumes you know why Napoleonic troops have canons.

IMC, the only way to turn and dispel undead is to present a cross strongly.

[gentlemanranker]

Thanks for the clarification. I came to the game through Holmes and I'm not as familiar with the exact wording of the originals as many of you.

I think the answer is clearly then, there is a difference if you want there to be.

What that difference should be, I don't know. I'd be hesitant in awarding a bonus for a silver cross. I might even cheat a little and pull some morality from Indiana Jones. "That's not the [cross] of a carpenter"!

Holmes specifically says "when a cleric...confronts one or more of the undead", so I require the cleric to 'front up' the undead in question, usually to interpose themselves between the undead and their party, so that they are relying on their faith to protect them. Usually I would expect something spoken; but for me, the ability is inherent to clerichood. When this happens, the dice are rolled...
I'd allow a cleric, stripped and thrown in a cage with a couple of ghouls, to attempt to turn.

GR

[SebastianDM]

gentlemanranker

The specifics of turning undead is generally not really given in the LBB. I read a blogpost from Dan Boggs that argues that this might be a rule from Arneson that Gygax himself maybe did not understand fully at the time the LBB was written. (It can be found here and is really interesting reading IMO: boggswood.blogspot.com/2014/08/turn-undead-are-we-getting-it-wrong.html ) This might be the case, but I also think it might be equally valid to think that Gygax found it self-evident that turning undead would require a holy symbol. After all he did not specify what any of the other items are used for.

Mod note: Fixed the link, the closing parenthesis was inadvertently included in the url.

[gentlemanranker]

Thanks for that Sebastian. Looks like a fascinating read!

GR

[linebeck]

Jun 7, 2020 5:04:32 GMT -6 gentlemanranker said:

Thanks for that Sebastian. Looks like a fascinating read!

GR

Dead link.

Mod note: Fixed, see above.

[Red Baron]

May 13, 2020 18:24:51 GMT -6 talysman said:

Wooden crosses can catch on fire. Silver crosses, not so much.

A very cool power for super-vampires would be to make wooden crosses burst into flame and silver crosses become red hot as per the ad&d "heat metal" spell.

It would sure be a nasty unexpected surprise!

[tombowings]

Jun 6, 2020 13:42:56 GMT -6 SebastianDM said:

gentlemanranker

The specifics of turning undead is generally not really given in the LBB. I read a blogpost from Dan Boggs that argues that this might be a rule from Arneson that Gygax himself maybe did not understand fully at the time the LBB was written. (It can be found here and is really interesting reading IMO: boggswood.blogspot.com/2014/08/turn-undead-are-we-getting-it-wrong.html ) This might be the case, but I also think it might be equally valid to think that Gygax found it self-evident that turning undead would require a holy symbol. After all he did not specify what any of the other items are used for.

Mod note: Fixed the link, the closing parenthesis was inadvertently included in the url.

As someone who's never been entirely happy with the cleric class, that's a lot to think about. Thanks for providing the link.