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Post by Finarvyn on Apr 9, 2020 16:21:53 GMT -6
How were hit points determined for elves based just on the white box We used to roll hit dice for each class separately, then allow the elf character to use whichever was higher, so a character might gain a level but no hit points if the other class was still higher. Later, when we house ruled the elf as a class, we had a total number of HD based on level that was created by adding the two sets of HD together. I have no idea what method was the "official" one.
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Post by peterlind on Apr 9, 2020 17:08:39 GMT -6
For your interest, here is a quote from A&E #2 in Colorado Comments by Joel S. Davis:
"ELVES are a problem, aren't they? As per GREYHAWK and some letters exchanged with TSR, we now allow elves and half-elves to carry weapons, wear armor, and cast spells, all at the same time. The limits on elvin advance in level is viewed as an adequate trade-off. As per Greyhawk, however, elves must split their experience by category (Fighter-Magic user or Fighter-Magic user-Thief)."
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Post by hamurai on Apr 10, 2020 0:49:50 GMT -6
Later, when we house ruled the elf as a class, we had a total number of HD based on level that was created by adding the two sets of HD together. I'm still looking for the best way to handle elves, especially since I've rolled the stats for one in our new game
Not sure if I understand you correctly, though: With the quoted method, a 2/4 Elf would have had 6 HD, 2 for their FM level and 4 for MU?
Wouldn't elves start with 2 HD then?
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Post by thegreyelf on Apr 10, 2020 6:09:35 GMT -6
In my reading direct from the book, which seems to be upheld by Peter's quote above, Elves MUST choose between performing as a Fighting Man or Magic User each adventure. When performing as a Magic User, they abide by ALL restrictions of the Magic User class, except that they can wear magical armor. When performing as a Fighting Man, they abide by ALL aspects fo the Fighting Man, meaning they cannot cast spells but can use all weapons and armor. If you chose to operate as a Magic User, you'd use your Magic User hit points. If you chose to operate as a Fighting Man, you'd use your Fighting Man hit points.
Is it foolish and hard to believe? Yes, absolutely. That's why it was changed in Greyhawk, which switched to a version of multiclassing that was later adopted and expanded upon in AD&D.
In the split XP method, you would never have a level 2 fighter, level 4 magic user. Magic Users require 10,000 XP to reach 4th level, and when you had 20,000 XP (10,000 in each class) you would be level 4/4 (Fighters need 8,000 to reach 4th level), so your fighter would have 4 hit dice, and your magic user would have 2+1 hit dice. The rules are not clear on whether these should be divided up, so it stands to reason that you would have 6+1 hit dice. That's a bit less than you'd have as either class were you operating as a single class, it seems reasonable that your elf would have 6+1 hit dice.
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Post by Piper on Apr 10, 2020 6:11:09 GMT -6
Not sure if I understand you correctly, though: With the quoted method, a 2/4 Elf would have had 6 HD, 2 for their FM level and 4 for MU? Wouldn't elves start with 2 HD then?
Gygax would have players halve their rolled hit points before adding them to their PC's total. So the way one of the co-creators ran it? No.
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Post by thegreyelf on Apr 10, 2020 6:16:02 GMT -6
Not sure if I understand you correctly, though: With the quoted method, a 2/4 Elf would have had 6 HD, 2 for their FM level and 4 for MU? Wouldn't elves start with 2 HD then?
Gygax would have players halve their rolled hit points before adding them to their PC's total. So the way one of the co-creators ran it? No.
Ah, there you have it. I stand corrected, but would probably still house rule that you start with the average of both class' hit dice, then total hit dice as you climb in levels, for the reason I outlined.
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Post by Piper on Apr 10, 2020 7:54:57 GMT -6
Ah, there you have it. I stand corrected, but would probably still house rule that you start with the average of both class' hit dice, then total hit dice as you climb in levels, for the reason I outlined. That makes sense to me. And, please, don’t think of it as a correction. I just thought an insight into how a co-creator of the game ran it might be helpful. He and Arneson both would be the first to tell you to run it your way.
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Post by hamurai on Apr 10, 2020 15:32:14 GMT -6
Thanks for clarifying!
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Post by delta on Apr 11, 2020 0:35:30 GMT -6
Actually, you're the one who is reading far beyond what the rules say. The rules ALSO don't say, "They can use magic armor, which means they can use all armor." No, they SPECIFY that Elves can use magic armor and don't say they can use anything else. Note that such an interpretation is in line with similar language used for all the other classes: - "All magical weaponry is usable by fighters, and this in itself is a big advantage..." - "The whole plethora of enchanted items lies at the magic-users beck and call, save the arms and armor of the fighters" - "Clerics... have the use of magic armor and all non-edged magic weapons (no arrows!)" - "Thieves can employ magic daggers and magic swords but none of the other magical weaponry." [from Greyhawk] In every case the details on class access to arms & armor are prefixed by the word "magic". The standard interpretations to mundane arms & armor access assume that was a superfluous bit of text. I think Gygax confirmed this at some point, but I can't lay my finger on it right now.
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Post by Finarvyn on Apr 11, 2020 5:28:12 GMT -6
Also, keep in mind that the distinction between regular and "magic" weapons was only a big thing back then because regular weapons all did d6 damage, so whether a magic user chose to stab with a dagger or was allowed to swing a sword didn't mean much. Thus the distinction between "magic" and not. I assume the "no swords for magic users" rule was aimed at the case of a magical sword, since they had the potential to be so powerful, and no one would really care if the magic user wanted to call his dagger a sword since mechanically they were pretty much identical.
Of course, armor could be a different matter since one could speculate that regular armor would be bulky and heavy and could restrict movement of spellcasting but Frodo's mithril mail (as an example of magic armor) was thin and light and might not be a hindrance. I can see where the intent might be to limit regular armor for elves but allow magic armor.
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Post by Porphyre on May 3, 2020 8:24:31 GMT -6
The way I do it (and I don't pretend it is the correct one);
Elf begins at first level in either class : magic -user or fighting man (fighting elf?) with all abilities and restrictions (MU can't use swords nor armor, FM can't cast spell nor use magic items). When he gains enough XP to gain a new level, he can either a/ gain a new level in his former class b/ gain a level in the new class, and gains all abilities of the new class. He adds Hit Dice of both classes to determine hit points , but uses only the beth of both for fighting capability and saving throws.
Example: Alcuin the Elf starts as a Magic User (Medium): he can use spells and magic items but no armor nor weaponry. He rolls 1d6 for Hit points When Alcuin has gaines 2500 XP, he elicits to start as a veteran Fighting Elf. He may now use armors and swords AND cast one 1st level spell a day he rolls 1d6 + 1d6+1 for his hit dice. When he has gained 4500 xp (2500+ 2000) he decides to continue to progress as a Fighter. He is now a Warrior-Medium: he rolls 3d6 for Hit points, fights as 2 men+1, and still has only one spell. When he has accumulated 6500 xp (2500 + 4000) Alcuin might progress as a Swordsman (Swordself?) but instead he becomes a Warrior-Seer because he thinks that "swordself" sounds stupid. He rolls 3d6+1 for HP; fights as 2 Men+1 and can cast 2 spells per day. Now he must wait until he has gained 5000 xp as a MU (9000 in total) to gain a new level in either class.
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Post by dicebro on May 12, 2020 1:59:59 GMT -6
Something that has occurred to me . . . I did not start playing D&D until after Greyhawk was out. How were hit points determined for elves based just on the white box, before the first supplement was released . . . ? some would reroll total hit points for each level gained. Some reroll at start of each session. Some would reroll max hit points at the start of each day. It’s the referee’s choice.
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2020 14:02:23 GMT -6
I use a unique sort of mechanic in my home world, wherein an Elf is a Jekyl/Hyde type character. Two distinct personalities inhabiting one body, but they have control over it, like someone who has mastered their Lycanthropy. However, they may only shift when the moon's face is showing (not at all during a New Moon or Lunar Eclipse!) and they have another character sheet with different xp and hp for each "form". I'm also strict in how that xp is divided. If you pull xp out of the dungeon as a mage, you gain the xp as your mage personality. No smart-alecks trying to game the system, thank you very much. That way lies... Lunacy!
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Post by peelseel2 on May 24, 2020 7:54:52 GMT -6
I started with Moldvay/Cook Basic. I always liked the Elf as 'Fighter/Magic User'; it made them special. I personally do not like the switch per adventure. My house rule was to add the XP for each level and take 12% off the total for the next level. Getting it loosely close to the XP advancement of Moldvay/Cook. They play as the best of fighters and Magic users for any given level.
I am not totally satisfied with that kludge, but I have time to think. Nobody is playing an Elf.
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2020 4:58:15 GMT -6
Well that's a shame. Someone should always be playing as an Elf. Elves are clearly the best choice for any D&D player.
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Post by Piper on May 25, 2020 7:13:29 GMT -6
Well that's a shame. Someone should always be playing as an Elf. Elves are clearly the best choice for any D&D player. 'specially if they have beards!
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2020 7:20:32 GMT -6
Well that's a shame. Someone should always be playing as an Elf. Elves are clearly the best choice for any D&D player. 'specially if they have beards! It's a little known fact that Elven beards evolved specifically to detect when a pumpkin-headed bugbear is creeping through the tall grass. True facts. (Somewhat veering back on topic, one of the little quirks I particularly enjoy about the three demi-humans in 3lbb is that all their special abilities pertain to perception, with the Dwarves and Elves being good at noticing, and the Hobbits being good at not being noticed.)
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Post by magremore on Jun 13, 2020 5:30:59 GMT -6
My short version: Elves split XP equally between classes. If any class XP bonus, apply. Elves have one HP total like anyone else. When a new level is reached, roll HD per usual for that class (if result is higher than existing HP, use that; if not, move along).
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Post by dicebro on Jun 13, 2020 6:07:15 GMT -6
This post is dedicated to Zareth, the first “dark elf”.
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Post by atlantean on Aug 5, 2020 15:41:48 GMT -6
Having tried to run fighter/magic user elves unsuccessfully for years, all I can say is that splitting your XP in two is one hell of a disadvantage.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2020 5:34:06 GMT -6
Having tried to run fighter/magic user elves unsuccessfully for years, all I can say is that splitting your XP in two is one hell of a disadvantage. You run into the same issue later on with the supplements and AD&D with multi-class characters. My 2e guy and the guy I ran in all the Baldur's Gate style PC games was usually a Half-Elven Fighter/Cleric/Magic-User/Thief and he took a HUGE amount of xp to level up each time, but he was so incredibly versatile and made the perfect party leader. It's an advantage vs disadvantage situation. Pure classes always level up much faster, especially Thieves, but they're not as powerful.
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Post by dicebro on Aug 6, 2020 18:58:05 GMT -6
Something that has occurred to me . . . I did not start playing D&D until after Greyhawk was out. How were hit points determined for elves based just on the white box, before the first supplement was released . . . ? They used six sided dice.
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Post by kaiqueo on Aug 6, 2020 19:10:55 GMT -6
Words from Gygax (from Zagyg's Wisdom superthread in Dragonsfoot):
" An elf can act as a Fighter and use armor, gain XPs in that class, or one can act as a Magic-User and likewise gain XPs. What isn't clear is the HD. When an advance in level is indicated, the elf gains one-half a HD whether the advance is in the Fighter or M-U class. Thus the elf is operating at a disadvantage, not an advantage, in regards HPs." (04/06/2005)
Also:
"If the elf PC acted in one class only, then all XPs went to that class, if both were employed, then the XPs are divided between the two classes. when a level is gained, the die is rolled and half of its total is gained, because having two classes does not mean two HD per level gained in each, rather one-half of one for each level in a class, one for a level gain in both. Attacks and saves are at the most favorable level of the elf PC." (10/23/2005)
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Post by delta on Aug 6, 2020 22:04:48 GMT -6
Thanks for posting that. The funny thing is, those two passages (written in the same year) seem to contradict each other. One says it's an option to use abilities from both classes in one adventure, while the other does not.
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Post by magremore on Aug 7, 2020 5:06:01 GMT -6
Thanks for posting that. The funny thing is, those two passages (written in the same year) seem to contradict each other. One says it's an option to use abilities from both classes in one adventure, while the other does not. delta, I think Gary was just saying the game had been played two ways (as evidenced by the A&E 2 quote in this thread), and that if you played the LBB way, all the XP went to the class you played that adventure, but if you played by giving the elves the simultaneous abilities, the XP had to be split.
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Post by delta on Aug 7, 2020 9:38:29 GMT -6
Thanks for posting that. The funny thing is, those two passages (written in the same year) seem to contradict each other. One says it's an option to use abilities from both classes in one adventure, while the other does not. delta, I think Gary was just saying the game had been played two ways (as evidenced by the A&E 2 quote in this thread), and that if you played the LBB way, all the XP went to the class you played that adventure, but if you played by giving the elves the simultaneous abilities, the XP had to be split. Note that the second quote was in response to the following question:
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Post by kaiqueo on Aug 7, 2020 10:14:00 GMT -6
The question for the first quote was: "In the original D&D booklets of 1974, it says that elves can advance either as fighting-men or magicusers. They can switch between these classes between, but not during, adventures. What does that mean exactly?"
I think Gygax was answering what the book meant. And in the second quote, he was saying what he used to do regarding experience ("How does a Referee award experience?").
Yes the book (pre-Greyhawk) doesn't allow acting as a fighter and magic-user at the same time ("not in the course of the same adventure"), but I believe that Gygax did, and in that case, XP was equally distributed.
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Post by tkdco2 on Aug 7, 2020 12:52:19 GMT -6
I'd probably port over the B/X rules for elves and other demihumans. However, I have toyed with the idea of allowing elves to be single-classed or multiclassed. Elves with a single class would be able to reach 2-3 levels higher than the ones stated in the rules. That would be in exchange for giving up one of their classes.
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Post by kaiqueo on Nov 6, 2020 23:51:42 GMT -6
It can be that the LBB restriction on elves (Fighters OR Magic-Users) has something to do with the fact that there are different rules in Chainmail Combat for each type. Mixing them in one single character would be hard to handle. But it's just a guess. Maybe, with the distancing from Chainmail rules, it became more common for elves to act as Fighter and M-U at the same time, and spliting xp in half. Given the exponential growth in xp required per level, it's usually more advantageous to split the xp evenly, i.e. with 20000 xp, you can have F4/M4 or M5.
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Post by Punkrabbitt on Nov 7, 2020 14:48:16 GMT -6
One of the things I like best about the OSR attitude is that we can all be Frank and say "I did it my way." All those rulrs for elves in the LBBs and Greyhawk are, like, really just guidelines, you know? And while dissecting the wording and punctuation line by line is awesome scolarship, this isn't school. This is the land of rulings not rules awesomeness, and we've had a whole lot of opinions expressed and shared here. The really far out thing is, here in the OSR, all those different ways of doing things using the same rules/guidelines are all the right way.
Party on!
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