|
Post by rsdean on Mar 8, 2020 16:34:16 GMT -6
www.google.com/maps/@41.2328817,-77.0125767,3a,75y,259.96h,79.52t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sR4i7ajg22ygZ0y3VW2ECjw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 There’s a place I have passed in Williamsport, PA, where, according to the road signs, you are on three different overlapping routes, one east, one south, and one north...Hope that link brings up a Google streetview image.
|
|
|
Post by waysoftheearth on Mar 8, 2020 17:22:13 GMT -6
Given how cities were built above ground, it'd difficult to imagine dungeons below ground being any more precisely aligned to compass headings.
The fact that dungeon maps show laser cut passages and precision alignment to compass headings could simply be an abstraction for the ref's convenience, whereas the reality on the ground might be quite different.
Anyways. I concur that if the assumption is an orthogonal Underworld, then it becomes a whole lot easier to just remember left, right, left etc. and "know" your heading.
|
|
premmy
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Posts: 295
|
Post by premmy on Mar 8, 2020 18:36:14 GMT -6
Here's one particular note about compass points and dungeon maps:
If dungeons existed in real life and we went down into them (and especially if some of us were actual dwarves and elves with superhuman senses), we wouldn't have a compass or a magical sense of direction to orient us and our makeshift map. This is true.
However, we WOULD have a whole slew of other environmental information that would help us navigate. There would be areas where the air is slightly warmer, or cooler, or moister or dryer. Areas where the air current would be stronger, or weaker, or peculiarly intermittent or completely absent. Areas where the draft would make a slightly different sound, or carry a distinct scent. Areas where the walls and the floor are smoother due to erosion, or rougher because of less erosion. Where the walls glisten with more moisture, or are duller because of dryness. Where that peculiar reddish mineral ore in the wall is visible in thicker, or thinner, or more frequent, or less frequent, or differently oriented veins. Where the bricks are larger or smaller or a different colour than elsewhere, or where some of them have ancient maker's stamps. Or they're just more, or less, smoothly laid. And a whole slew of other details, too.
All this is navigaton information that we would have in a real-life dungeon, but which we DON'T have in the game, because the DM is not going put in the effort to come up with, keep track of, and relate to us all this. In other words, the DM is giving the players far less information than they would have in real life.
It is therefore not at all unfair for the DM to balance this artificial and "irrealistic" dearth of one type of navigational information by offering a similarly artificial and "irrealistic" surfeit of another type of navigational info - a sense of compass bearings.
|
|
|
Post by hamurai on Mar 8, 2020 23:50:29 GMT -6
I've used the sun to help navigate old town Venice, it's not that hard to do, actually. I knew I started out in the south, checked the sun, and relatively easily found my way to the north-east. It's even easier if you have some fixed points like church towers to help. I'd argue that in a dungeon you'd pretty much lose your sense of direction after a long spiral staircases. The fact that dungeon maps show laser cut passages and precision alignment to compass headings could simply be an abstraction for the ref's convenience, whereas the reality on the ground might be quite different. That's how I see it, too. The graph paper helps us mapping and it helps the players to get a feeling of how big the dungeon parts are, but that doesn't mean it's always clear-cut. It might be, when it comes to dwarven architecture, for example, but a natural cave system surely not.
|
|
|
Post by countingwizard on Mar 10, 2020 11:00:47 GMT -6
Here's one particular note about compass points and dungeon maps: If dungeons existed in real life and we went down into them (and especially if some of us were actual dwarves and elves with superhuman senses), we wouldn't have a compass or a magical sense of direction to orient us and our makeshift map. This is true. However, we WOULD have a whole slew of other environmental information that would help us navigate. There would be areas where the air is slightly warmer, or cooler, or moister or dryer. Areas where the air current would be stronger, or weaker, or peculiarly intermittent or completely absent. Areas where the draft would make a slightly different sound, or carry a distinct scent. Areas where the walls and the floor are smoother due to erosion, or rougher because of less erosion. Where the walls glisten with more moisture, or are duller because of dryness. Where that peculiar reddish mineral ore in the wall is visible in thicker, or thinner, or more frequent, or less frequent, or differently oriented veins. Where the bricks are larger or smaller or a different colour than elsewhere, or where some of them have ancient maker's stamps. Or they're just more, or less, smoothly laid. And a whole slew of other details, too. All this is navigaton information that we would have in a real-life dungeon, but which we DON'T have in the game, because the DM is not going put in the effort to come up with, keep track of, and relate to us all this. In other words, the DM is giving the players far less information than they would have in real life. It is therefore not at all unfair for the DM to balance this artificial and "irrealistic" dearth of one type of navigational information by offering a similarly artificial and "irrealistic" surfeit of another type of navigational info - a sense of compass bearings. Gary Gygax: Just let your players use directions. It's not worth holding up play just to spend an extra 5 minutes of them asking questions to get an accurate map when you could have just described it right the first time.
|
|
|
Post by Vile Traveller on Mar 10, 2020 17:28:52 GMT -6
All this is navigation information that we would have in a real-life dungeon, but which we DON'T have in the game, because the DM is not going put in the effort to come up with, keep track of, and relate to us all this. Isn't this is exactly the sort of thing the referee should be relating to the players? I do, as do most of the referee's I've played with. You have to give players a modicum of description of this sort, both to stimulate their imagination, and to make it less obvious when you occasionally drop environmental description in as a clue. Drafts, temperature, and humidity are especially frequently used descriptors. Just let your players use directions. It's not worth holding up play just to spend an extra 5 minutes of them asking questions to get an accurate map when you could have just described it right the first time. That's another reason I use left and right rather than compass points. It saves me clarifying when the mapper inevitably asks, "Is west to my left or to my right?" Actually, I've only been describing layouts to players in more recent years. Last century I used these babies, which made any mapping errors entirely the mapper's fault: I still have them, and they have pencil anecdotes scrawled on the back, like: "Here rests Perrin Whiteblade, criticalled by an arbalest in the head." (that was from an RQ2 game in the 80s, clearly).
|
|
|
Post by delta on Mar 14, 2020 22:05:12 GMT -6
Anecdote from last night: I was running the Holmes Zenopus Dungeon for a group of 6 players (2 brand-new to RPGs, 2 who'd done some online 5E play, and 2 who've played old-school D&D for a number of years with me). The 2 experienced players both drew separate maps to double-check each other; recall that the Holmes dungeon has a fairly simple layout, and is perfectly rectilinear except in a few exceptional places.
They decided to send the hobbits & dwarf into the Rat Tunnels to investigate. At this point on a whim I switched from compass-directions to left-right specifiers. The most expert player mapping basically threw up his arms in despair and said, "I can't imagine anyone who could possibly keep a map with left-right directions, that's impossible".
|
|
|
Post by waysoftheearth on Mar 14, 2020 23:02:22 GMT -6
At this point on a whim I switched from compass-directions to left-right specifiers. The most expert player mapping basically threw up his arms in despair and said, "I can't imagine anyone who could possibly keep a map with left-right directions, that's impossible". Sounds like a compelling reason to use left/right
|
|
|
Post by Vile Traveller on Mar 15, 2020 0:08:04 GMT -6
I genuinely don't understand - how is "There's a door 20' down the left wall" more confusing than "There's a door 20' down the west wall"?
|
|
|
Post by asaki on Mar 15, 2020 1:10:12 GMT -6
If players map using their memory of which direction is north based on their memory of the Wilderness above, that's up to them, but I still just describe things with left and right. Actually saying "north wall" to me means that I am confirming that that direction is north, which I'm not going to do. I know that there is a long tradition of describing the dungeon layout using compass directions, but I don't agree with it. It seems like metagaming, like telling the payers what percentage of hit points their opponent has remaining. Oh sure, I definitely only use it to aide in map-making. If the players are running through the dungeon, and/or unable to map, I don't give any cardinal directions at all. I might not even give left/right, just say "it turns here, continues, there's a door", etc.
|
|
muddy
Level 4 Theurgist
Posts: 158
|
Post by muddy on Mar 15, 2020 8:45:09 GMT -6
I've always played that dwarves eventually get their bearings underground. It is a further encouragement to have a balanced party (I never thought to ask myself why this is a good thing, maybe race is another resource to manage? "We can't lose the dwarf, we'll never get out of here!") It also balances the (benefits) of using a left right/right orientation (realistic if they've gotten lost, a challenge for players when finding their way around) with the (detrimental) tedium of trying to consistently give accurate left/right descriptions.
I think Vile is right, one of the main reasons for having them was that they are found on real maps. I also suspect that many early D&D players were, like me, Tolkien loving Boy Scouts and that equated to a boyhood enthusiasm for maps, orienteering, and exploration. And those maps, both real and fantastic, had a compass.
|
|
azera
Level 2 Seer
Posts: 36
|
Post by azera on Mar 22, 2020 8:45:49 GMT -6
I don't think I've ever used compass directions while describing dungeons at the table. It seems so unnatural, compared to relative directions. When I enter a room IRL, I think about what's on the wall ahead of me, not what's on the north wall.
In wilderness, I describe things relative to landmarks and vague directions (dawnward, peakward, over by Bald Johnny's Hill, etc.) but allow use of compass directions (assumed through referencing stars or whatever) if requested.
In my own written dungeon keys, I use compass directions to keep track of features, like "floor slopes down to west", "north wall has a golden frieze", etc. I've always just assumed that's the main reason why published adventures use them. As for the examples of play in the rule books using them, I just...don't care? And I always get a good laugh out of dungeons where someone has carved compass roses into the place, like Rahasia.
Speaking of which, question for those who do use compass directions: what do you do when the PCs go through a teleporter, shifting/turning room, confounding illusions, or anything else like that which is meant to throw off directions?
|
|
|
Post by talysman on Mar 22, 2020 10:18:34 GMT -6
Speaking of which, question for those who do use compass directions: what do you do when the PCs go through a teleporter, shifting/turning room, confounding illusions, or anything else like that which is meant to throw off directions? If they don't know about the deception, keep describing things based on the direction they think they are facing. If they know they've teleported (or whatever) and keep mapping, agree on an arbitrary "North" for the time being. Or, if they try to figure out which direction is North, assess their chances based on their actions and resolve it.
|
|
azera
Level 2 Seer
Posts: 36
|
Post by azera on Mar 22, 2020 19:48:53 GMT -6
Sounds reasonable. I'd think that needing to adjust your directions based on a fictitious compass orientation would end up being about the same amount of mental workload as just using relative directions from the start, but if it works for you, great
|
|