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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2019 13:29:50 GMT -6
Here goes the first trailer for the fantasy extravaganza of our time. I am going to be honest: I have completely given up on the story, but I watch it for the excellent flair, the great acting, and the special effects. Twenty years from now, this will be what kids watch when they want to get into the genre, the same way my generation watched old VHS tapes of the uncut version of "Conan the Barbarian". What do you think about this one?
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Post by Falconer on Mar 5, 2019 14:51:44 GMT -6
I’ll watch for the spectacle and the lulz and the thrill of being part of a shared audience reaction. I’m deep into the books (again) at the moment, and it’s hard in my current state of mind to really take too seriously an adaptation that has wandered into lazy pastiche and, eventually, pure fanservice; this detached attitude will surely only improve my viewing experience.
As for kids getting into the genre through it, well, not my kids! There were plenty of moments that were too graphic for even my tastes, when I almost said, I’m done with this garbage! The last season or two have actually been pretty tame, so, it’s easy to forget. And in general I remain convinced that Fantasy is a genre best served by media other than TV/film.
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Post by sixdemonbag on Mar 5, 2019 14:57:10 GMT -6
Here goes the first trailer for the fantasy extravaganza of our time. Pretty sure that title belt still goes to Peter Jackson's LOTR. Kids will still be watching Harry Potter and LOTR, first and foremost, then GoT when they are in college. I'm too young for Conan, so my introduction to the fantasy genre in the visual medium was Willow, The Never-ending Story, Labyrinth, He-Man, The Princess Bride, The Black Cauldron, The Sword in the Stone, Robin Hood, and The Prince of Thieves. I'm very excited for it. I've invested enough time to be interested in the ending, even though I wish the last few seasons had a more GRRM-vibe. It's still appointment TV for me and I'm looking forward to it. I've read all the books twice and I'll need the last two official installments before I make any overall critiques of the story. The TV-version started life as an exemplary adaptation, but that has gone downhill since they exhausted the source material. The show still does a good job with characters, acting, set pieces, spectacle, and the rest to keep me on the edge of my seat. I hope it's good!
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Post by geoffrey on Mar 5, 2019 18:36:15 GMT -6
I have two big wishes for how it all ends up:
1. I hope Arya Stark is OK at the end.
2. I hope Daenerys sits upon the Iron Throne.
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Post by sixdemonbag on Mar 5, 2019 22:09:18 GMT -6
Since ASOIAF is basically one long treatise on GRRM's fascination with trope reversal, I'm betting the Iron Throne gets melted by dragon fire at some point.
Now, as to who actually takes control of Westeros? It will be the Iron Bank (Iron Throne/Iron Bank) as always with some figurehead installed. That figurehead? Someone who always pays their debts: Tyrion.
I'm probably totally wrong about everything I just wrote and that's why I like the series so much because it's a lot of fun to theorize about and hard to pick a favorite character.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2019 7:22:19 GMT -6
FTR, I am going to keep out of any spoiler talk, this time... Because I know how it ends - or at least how the famous Spanish Youtube-Ist "Frikidoctor" says it will end. That guy is not some internet random person, but actually a pretty accomplished Spanish screenwriter, and the way he analyses the plot of most movies or TV series is usually crisp, and to the point. His videos are, frankly, at this point almost more interesting to me than the actual show. Almost. As to GoT's standing in TV/genre history, that's an interesting point both of you, Falconer and sixdemonbag, are making: Myself, I was born in '82, so I was too late for most of those titles as well - "Conan" had a cult following among kids around here, though, back in the day, because it was adult-oriented and supposed to be edgy. Myself, I was more a fan of other stuff, as well: "Robin Hood", as per Kevin Costner, He-Man, and Prince Valiant. As to what format suits fantasy best, that's an interesting topic as well: I think the problem is less the medium than the usual interference of zeitgeist-y issues in movies. To name the tamest of examples, "The Last Jedi" not having a guy called "Ackbar" blowing himself up in a suicidal rescue of the rebellion was a bad narrative decision, but a very smart one concerning the social context. The same goes for "GoT", with the annoying "sexposition", or for Peter Jackson's Hobbit movies turning into a special effects showcase. A quieter introduction into a fantasy world is something we rarely see in movies - which is why PJ's LotR movies are so good: We have time for the Rohan prince's funeral scene, and for Frodo taking a walk through Bag End. "GoT" has lost that over the years - instead of real "fluff", we get cameos by famous people: Nothing ever took me out of my own suspension of disbelief like the scene with *redhead singer whose name now escapes me*.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2019 11:01:11 GMT -6
Not really - the "Frikidoctor" thing in Spain is more of a singular phenomenon: The guy is a magnificent storyteller. What he's talking about is more of a secondary concern. He's also one of the hosts of a famous late-night show, and does this kind of stuff during the day hours. ...Which tells a lot how Spanish people view cultural events - as a community thing. Or so I guess.
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Post by Falconer on Mar 6, 2019 13:07:00 GMT -6
I’m guessing they’ll discover they can reforge the Iron Throne into a cache of much-needed Valyrian Steel swords.
Westeros is undergoing a transformation of mythic proportions. There is no chance, in my view, that it will cycle back to the status quo of 300 years ago (Westeros united under the Targaryen dynasty).
I consider it much more likely it ends up that either:
1. Magic/Dragons/White Walkers all end up gone from the world forever,
or,
2. History cycles back fully to the Age of Heroes/the Long Night.
I lean towards #1 for the books, but #2 for the show. Winter has been coming, coming, coming, this whole time, so the show has to be about the coming of a long winter, right? They can’t drive it back in a half-season and end up in Summer again. Also, they are planning a series called The Long Night, so.
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Post by sixdemonbag on Mar 6, 2019 22:39:38 GMT -6
Also, they are planning a series called The Long Night, so. They are? This could be a spoiler, I suppose ... unless it's a prequel? Oh, well. I'm certain to be entertained, even if it it plays out as expected (and I'm doubtful it will). It's prequel that takes place 5,000-10,000 years in the past: “This one really puts the PRE in prequel, since it is set not ninety years before Game of Thrones (like Dunk & Egg), or a few hundred years, but rather 10,000 years (well, assuming the oral histories of the First Men are accurate, but there are maesters at the Citadel who insist it has only been half that long),” Martin wrote. “We’re very early in the process, of course, with the pilot order just in, so we don’t have a director yet, or a cast, or a location, or even a title. (My vote would be THE LONG NIGHT, which says it all, but I’d be surprised if that’s where we end up. More likely HBO will want to work the phrase “game of thrones” in there somewhere. We’ll know sooner or later).”
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2019 3:38:14 GMT -6
www.hbo.com/hbo-news/game-of-thrones-prequel-what-to-knowThe prequel show is already subject to a lot of controversy, because Martin has written and/or designed next to nothing about the aforementioned "long night". Based on that alone, the idea of the show adhering in any way to the known ASOIAF canon is pretty much zero, and many fans have voiced a certain lack of enthusiasm. The idea here is clearly to milk the franchise, and to do the interesting projects later on - "The Rains of Castamere", the rise of young Tywin, was floated as a prequel idea for some time, but apparently canned after some marketing research. Likewise, "The Dance of Dragons", as described in the books, was in early development stages, but HALTED for this more generic take on the setting. - For me, both of those prequel stories would have made way more sense, and would have been way more interesting than what is done now. My guess is, "The Long Night" will reversely explain or at least contextualize the events of season 6 to 8 of GoT; that, in itself, is not a bad thing, because the story is beyond the point of making sense. If there's any indication from the casting and from the material quoted by official sources so far, we will learn more about the origin of the Dothraki, as well as the story behind the Great Harpy of Mereen on one side of the world, and then on the foundation of House Stark on the other. ...Based on what is considered a >>> megaspoiler <<< from "The World of ASOIAF" book, there is a clear direction that the tale could take that would probably entertain audiences - even though the great spin would probably not be the "Azor Ahai" storyline, but how the traditional Northern and Southern storylines could correlate.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2019 6:33:27 GMT -6
PREQUEL MEGASPOILERS FROM EXISTING GoT-LORE
- So, there was already a take on Westeros during the "Age of Heroes" - if not by GRRM, then by HBO, in the form of a video game called "Games of Thrones - Genesis". Given that the game is based on the show, and hence the respective IPs belong to the studio, not to the author, it's likely that we'll see recurring themes, because the scripts are already written: Also, in terms of name recognition, "Nymeria" as a character makes sense.
- In the "World of Ice and Fire book", there are - apparently - several allusions to the ancient Northerners having commanded dragons, as well. The same book states that dragon eggs are buried under the crypts of Winterfell. The GoT-TV series has not used the line, but remember how the books say that "there must always be a Stark in Winterfell"? Fans seem to think it's because the Starks are supposed to guard those eggs. - Personally, I think this is something we will see discovered in the last scene of the TV show.
- Early leaks indicate that "Lan the Clever" will play a role - the founding father of House Lannister. Also, "The Grey King", the ancestor of House Greyjoy was mentioned as a possible character - apparently during an interview with HBO brass.
- "The Fist of the First Men" filming location was apparently scouted again during summertime; whatever that means. - Certainly, a pattern seems to be emerging from the leaks.
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Post by Falconer on Mar 7, 2019 12:36:33 GMT -6
I know it’s a prequel that takes place in the past. What I was talking about was basically whether the “present” conflict was pointing to a final end of myth and magic, or whether the state of things would “cycle” back to a fully mythological age resembling the Age of Heroes … or whether time could literally cycle back à la The Worm Ouroboros.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2019 23:59:50 GMT -6
I know it’s a prequel that takes place in the past. What I was talking about was basically whether the “present” conflict was pointing to a final end of myth and magic, or whether the state of things would “cycle” back to a fully mythological age resembling the Age of Heroes … or whether time could literally cycle back à la The Worm Ouroboros. Not trying to bait you, but obviously I know, through the Spanish leaker, where this is heading. So, I'd rather not comment. I agree that the books are probably headed towards a different path than the TV series, though - not in "specific" terms, not in relation to the actual plot lines displayed on the TV show - but in that GRRM doesn't really seem to have concluded "Act I" of of the usual three-act story structure. Especially "A Feast For Crows" and "A Dance of Dragons" introduced so many new elements with regards to the overall composition of the world that it just doesn't feel like the series was in any way headed towards a conclusion. More like, "The Wheel of Time" at the same level of progression - everybody knows where things are heading, but we're not getting there for quite a while. - No specific spoilers here, either, but just think of the character named "Pate", and the overall implications that storyline might still have. Personally, I am glad we're getting a conclusion to the story on TV: I am not one of the OMG-GRRM-sixty-so-he-almost-dead guys, but at his current pace, I doubt the series will conclude before 2030. With the TV conclusion, at least there is room for new material inside the genre. On TV, I think "The Wheel of Time" could be genre-defining, and in the literary hemisphere, I think we're in for an era defined by more Patrick Rothfuss (whose work I hate), and, on our side of the genre, by Nicholas Eames. ...But for that, the genre needs to move on from Martin: I am happy that ASOIAF is going to stick around a while longer, but it has also kind of grown old on me. It's time to freshen things up, a little bit! (Says the dude who just pre-ordered Shannara novel #29. So much for, eeeh, repetitive writing. )
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Post by geoffrey on Mar 8, 2019 9:07:47 GMT -6
I doubt the series will conclude before 2030. I think the soonest we can hope for is this year for book 6 and 2027 for book 7 (and that's being optimistic). In the meantime, I read and enjoyed Fire & Blood.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2019 11:49:27 GMT -6
How was that one? A fictional history book, or more "assorted short fiction"? - I think it's an interesting book to write for Martin, and I hope that it will one day serve for a TV series, as well: The (historical, in-universe) "Dance of Dragons" is something that I quite simply want to see done for the silver screen.
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Post by Falconer on Mar 8, 2019 15:47:07 GMT -6
Regardless of whether ASoIaF will ever be finished, speculating about where it’s headed is a great hobby. I think AGoT+ACoK+ASoS represents a solid Act I; I think AFfC+ADwD is a sort of interlude that falls outside the 3-act structure.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2019 0:29:53 GMT -6
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2019 11:53:52 GMT -6
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2019 22:14:05 GMT -6
- Got up two hours early to watch this: No surprises, so far - the tendency of bad dialogue continues, and many scenes are too rushed, especially when compared to the first few seasons. Not quite phoned in, but the series would have needed two or three more episodes, already, just for the action that transpires in the first sit-in. - No spoilers here, but the penultimate scene of the episode (the one involving the Night's Watch) is one of the most effective scenes in the entire show. Yet, its tone doesn't fit with the overall tone of the episode. Too much crammed into too little time.
Now, please consider this only a minor criticism: With this show, we're seeing the fantasy redefined for an entire generation. It might admittedly be pretty uneven, but it's going to places we've not seen in the genre. Like, maybe in PJ's "Lord of the Rings", twenty years ago, or in Netflix' recent "The Last Kingdom". But nowhere else. Ten years ago, the gold standard for fantasy television was the dildo-swinging models-hired-as-actors in "Legend of the Seeker"*. Now, we have a 100-mil, ensemble cast production that sports one of the consensus best movie soundtracks ever made. ...Not the worst way for things to go.
*That series wasn't even that bad.
Brace yourselves, small spoilers are coming:
The one thing that really made me space out over my breakfast coffee was a conflict in the show that really challenged the suspension of disbelief. That conflict, between the Northern and Southern protagonists, originates in Jon Snow famously "bending the knee" and swearing allegiance to the Dragon Queen with the unspellable name. - And if you know that, you also know how season seven ended. There was even a twitter hashtag involving the word "boat".
So, now Jon and Danny are boyfriend and girlfriend, hangin' out and flirting - but the possibility of a royal marriage that would, like, instantly end all the political issues that hinder the preparations ahead of the fookin' apocalypse is outright dismissed. Because we need the filler, and because modern "woke" HBO audiences might probably not emphasize with a wedding that's not entirely done out of love. As inconsequential as that storyline might ultimately turn out to be, it DOES bring "teh cringe". Let's hope they find a way to write around this one.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2019 16:34:43 GMT -6
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Post by geoffrey on Apr 23, 2019 16:40:04 GMT -6
A theory (not a prediction) of mine:
1. Arya is pregnant from Gendry.
2. Gendry will die before the season ends (and probably in the next episode).
3. Sansa will die before the season ends.
This leaves Arya as the last true Stark heir. Bran? Not really Bran anymore. Jon Snow? Never really was Jon Snow.
In episode 6 Arya will discover and mention that she is pregnant, and Bran will remark in his off-hand tone: "He will be lord of Winterfell."
That will allow Arya to become lady of Winterfell without being a domesticated wife. She will know that she bears her (male!) heir with no need for a spare, so she can be lady of Winterfell without giving up her free-spirited ways.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2019 0:09:39 GMT -6
I'm a bit put off how inconsistently Bran is written: He's very much like Green Lantern from DC, in that he doesn't use his powers as common sense would demand it. For example, couldn't he track the evil guys better than he is doing?
As to who lives and who dies this season, the only information that is not definitive yet [NOT going to tell what I know unless people explicitly demand it] is what happens to Gilly, to Missandei (who is very different than her book counterpart), and to Daenerys. My prediction, based on my gut feeling alone, is that all three of them are NOT going to survive next episode.
I don't exactly know how the series ends, either, but I would also bet on a Stark sitting on the Iron Throne, in the end - at least in the TV show.
Full disclosure: It's not difficult to find these spoilers, about what happens in the show's last episode. However, the most important part - how the setting's general conflict is ultimately resolved, is NOT known. So, even though there are sequence plans out there for virtually every outdoor scene that was filmed (which is crazy), it is NOT known who will be sitting on the Iron Throne when the credits roll.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2019 0:10:24 GMT -6
Also, seriously, Tormund is my spirit animal.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2019 9:29:49 GMT -6
"Rowell the Blade marries Sansa." - Frikidoctor, on Twitter, 100% legit.
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Post by geoffrey on Apr 28, 2019 20:51:38 GMT -6
ARYA STARK KILLED THE NIGHT KING AND THEREBY DESTROYED THE ARMY OF THE DEAD! She's my favorite. I've liked her since the show's first episode. I think and hope she'll survive the season. And speaking of favorites, the one who has always been my favorite claimant for the Iron Throne--Daenerys Targaryen--is alive and well. I feel bad that Jorah Mormont was slain, but it is the death he would have chosen: To die with his sword in his hand defending his queen and the woman he loved.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2019 22:41:38 GMT -6
Watched this one for workdesk-breakfast. (I'm supposedly on holiday since last Wednesday already, so that's okay.) Assorted thoughts: - By Hextor, the lighting. For good part of the episode, I'm staring at a black screen. That takes away just so much. Like, the viewers need to be able to see what's happening. This was so obscure, it was almost experimental. - The White Walkers/Night King storyline probably ending is something I'm not opposed to; it was paper-thin to begin with, and really far from what seems to be coming in the books. - In retrospect, I'd love to have seen more of Melissandre and Arya: Their stories are much more important in retrospect, yet especially Arya as the fated hero of the world comes with nearly no foreshadowing. - So, the Unsullied, who have been fighting with spears all their lives get OBLITERATED, but Arya is the only one to know how to use one? -_- - OF COURSE it was my favorite characters who had to die, Dolorous Edd before all others. - Holy cow, they made us feel this. Feel this hard.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2019 23:02:15 GMT -6
Jon Snow unhingedly yelling at the lich dragon. I am content.
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Post by geoffrey on Apr 29, 2019 11:20:25 GMT -6
Episode 4: I'm thinking this will be a set-up episode, with Daenerys and company licking their wounds and marching towards King's Landing, where Cersei and her minions prepare for battle. Jon and Daenerys basically say to each other, "We can worry about who exactly sits on the Iron Throne after we get rid of Cersei. We all agree that she has to go."
Episode 5: The battle between the queens. Daenerys triumphs, and Jamie kills Cersei.
Episode 6: Aftermath and resolution: Daenerys and Jon marry and rule as co-monarchs. They resolve to use a light touch, pretty much telling the Seven Kingdoms that they can do as they wish as long as: A) They keep the peace, and B) respect the rights of their subjects. So where is the "bitter" part of the bittersweet ending? At least one of Daenerys's remaining dragons will have been killed in the battle of queens, and Daenerys might remain barren.
Guesses, only guesses.
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Post by flightcommander on Apr 29, 2019 22:29:27 GMT -6
... Melissandre and Arya: Their stories are much more important in retrospect, yet especially Arya as the fated hero of the world comes with nearly no foreshadowing. Agree with the first clause, but disagree with the second. I frankly have nothing concrete to back this up, but I felt from the start (in both the books and the screen adaptation) that Arya had an end-game role. Now that that hand has been played I'm a little bit worried for her!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2019 2:12:06 GMT -6
Not to sound snarky, but that's because there is actually *nothing* in the show or in the books to back this up: The Azor Ahai/"Prince That Was Promised"-prophecy clearly points at Jon as the "fated hero" - and in the show, that's way stronger than in the books: Jon gets the heroic journey, becomes a leader of men - and the chosen of a god, no less. One might make the argument that Arya, in the meantime, simply first gets fencing classes, and then goes to a very tough karate school. (That Faceless Men training place.) This highlights the biggest problem of the books and of the show, and one of the reasons why I fear the series won't age all too well, after all: A critical lack of narrative coherence. For example, if Arya's training so far is already the base for her being a memetic badass, and for her being able to easily kill the world's "embodiment of death" - what about, say, a Faceless Man who actually completed the training. If this is really the case, then why not get a few more of them, simply, and that way evade the massive genocide that is going on? The same goes for Melissandre: So, she is repeatedly implied not to be "THE" red priestess, but only "ONE" of them; other members of her order are at least powerful as she is, and we see in the show and in the books that they are common enough both in Westeros and in Essos (?) to be around in every major city. - So, why doesn't anybody get the idea to collect a few more of them before the big battle? Like, is there a reason not to? That fire magic sure came in handy. ...And there are dozens of bigger and smaller similar issues like that; I don't mind that, as long as the story remains otherwise coherent - but if the whole point of introducing all these fantasy elements was to disregard or to subvert them, then that's where I stop paying attention to the series. In the case of GoT, that won't keep me from watching the series' conclusion: But why should I care for prequels to the show that are currently in production? - Their point is to provide further context to the mythical backgrounds of the show's narrative. And these mythical backgrounds were just universally discarded by the show when basically-a-random-character, and not "the fated hero", killed the BBEG. Now, maybe I, and most readers, are critically overlooking some hints from the novels that point to Arya being Azor Ahai. Maybe those hints are still to come in the remaining future books, as well. But for the moment, Arya killing the NK is simply not coherent with the prior narrative.
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