"Already There"?

[mindcontrolsquid]

I just noticed something in the 3lbb map generation tables: a couple of entries have parentheticals stating "(already there)." Perhaps I'm just thick, but I can't quite puzzle out what this means. Am I to conclude that the map states that the players are already at the site where the treasure is? Or am I missing something obvious?

[oldkat]

Just gave my 3 a quick scan and, I must be denser than you cos I couldn't find a thing about what you're asking.

Could you throw us a specific citation, please?

[Red Baron]

Feb 8, 2016 18:51:02 GMT -6 oldkat said:

Just gave my 3 a quick scan and, I must be denser than you cos I couldn't find a thing about what you're asking.

Could you throw us a specific citation, please?

mindcontrolsquid is referring to M&T p.27, MAPS:, MAGIC & TREASURE

[oldkat]

ahh, thanks, Baron.

@ MCS--- I fergit.

[peterlind]

Here's my take on it:

First, assume the characters are in a dungeon and they find a map. As referee, you may roll on the Maps table on page 23 to determine the type of map found. If a 91-00 is rolled, then a Magic & Treasure Map has been found.

Second, roll on the table on page 27 for Magic & Treasure [Map]. IMO, if a 4 or 6 is rolled, then the characters are "already there." This may be interpreted to mean that the Map leads to a location elsewhere within the same dungeon that they are currently in . . .

[mindcontrolsquid]

A small but persistently sadistic part of my brain is tempted to interpret "already there" as meaning that something else is "already there" at the treasure site. I realize that the map generation tables specifically state that "All items will be guarded by appropriate monsters," but perhaps there could be another adventuring party "already there?" Perhaps some unaffiliated force come to claim it? I don't know, just brainstorming.

[coffee]

Looks to me like the map leads to another map. For example, #4 leads to a Map to #7 Treasure. But #6 Magic is already there, i.e., where you pick up the second map.

[Zenopus]

Thanks for pointing this out, I've never noticed it before.

Entries #1 and #6 on the table both include #1 Treasure and #1 Magic, so there must be a difference.

* * * * *

These tables are also found in the DMG pg 120 in revised form. If you roll 91-100 on the Maps Table, you then go to the "Combined Hoard" table. This seems to be a revised version of the one on page 27 of OD&D Vol 2.

Note these two revised entries:

"Map to 1-2 & 3-5 Monetary Treasure, 20 Magic Treasure on Hand"
"Map to 11-12 & 13-15 Monetary Treasure plus 15-18 Magic Treasure, 20 Magic Treasure on Hand"

* * * * *

Based on this, my interpretation of the OD&D table is that the initial Treasure includes a "Map to #1 Treasure" and "#1 Magic (already there)". A combined Map and Magic treasure.

So when you are rolling up the treasure, instead of just including a single Map to a combined hoard of #1 Treasure and #1 Magic, you instead find a Map to #1 Treasure plus the #1 Magic.

[increment]

Feb 9, 2016 8:07:39 GMT -6 coffee said:

Looks to me like the map leads to another map. For example, #4 leads to a Map to #7 Treasure. But #6 Magic is already there, i.e., where you pick up the second map.

This.

The ambiguity arose because each entry in the table lists Treasure first and then Magic second. This is clearer if you have drafts like Mornard, where you can see that, for example, die roll 7 formerly read "#4 Treasure + Map to #8 Magic", reading much the same way as the result for roll 4, which originally read "Map to #7 Treasure + #6 Magic." The latter is ambiguous - does it mean, you found a map to a place where there is #7 treasure and #6 magic, or does it mean you found a map to #7 treasure, and along with that map you also found in the same spot #6 magic?

When they wrote this up for OD&D, they changed rolls 7 and 8 so that they no loner contained as their second components maps to magic, but instead just contained the magic itself. So the ambiguities in the published M&T are only in rolls 4 and 6, as those are the only places you get magic and then maps and not the treasure itself. The "already there" means that the second element for those two the rolls, the magic part, is what have you have found along with the treasure map.

[mindcontrolsquid]

I see, that clears it up immensely. Thanks to everyone, particularly Zenopus and Jon!