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Post by geoffrey on Jan 27, 2015 11:49:37 GMT -6
I actually like for some spells to be of doubtful utility. Take the 3rd-level spell, Omar's Mistake: Range: 60ft Duration: 1d6 days The subject’s eyes glow, and glass rattles when he is within 20ft. Dogs flee from him, cats are attracted into his presence. Members of the opposite sex have a 1% chance to be affected as if by a charm person spell, and members of the same sex have a 1% chance to attack him for no reason. The spell’s subject finds the color blue objectionable, and he may steal shiny items. If that can't be one of my 100 Vancian magic spells, then life has no meaning. I, for one, have no use for a spell like this. IMHO, while amusing, it is a waste of space in a D&D rulebook. When will players ever select it? The 1% thing looks like a rolling nightmare in cities. I have always seen D&D magic and D&D magic users as people who approach magic in a exploitative, materialistic, utilitarian and abusive mindset. I can't find a reason to select this spell over any of the other, very powerful 3rd level spells. Or the reason is, in the best case, super narrow. I can be convinced otherwise! A magic-user has just turned 5th level. He grabs a 26-sided die to see what 3rd-level spell is in his spellbook. He rolls a 15. "Omar's Mistake? What the...?" It's either that or nothing! Now Omar's poor scion has to get creative. Suppose the magic-user and his companions notice a fighting-man with a dozen mean dogs guarding the treasure they are after. The magic-user hits the fighting-man with Omar's Mistake, and his twelve dogs run away. Now only a single fighting-man stands between them and their rich reward...
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Post by talysman on Jan 27, 2015 13:46:21 GMT -6
I love the spells of "doubtful utility" for the same reasons as you Geoffrey. What I'm a bit wobbly on is repetitive spells, or spells that are simply "power ups" of lower level spells. I'm being a bit more strident in print that I feel, so apologies if I come off heavy handed. Ipartially agree with this. I'm OK with Light vs. Continual Light, especially if you make the Light spell mobile and castable on anything, while Continual Light must be cast on an object which will emit the light, and is dispelled if the object is moved. That creates slightly different flavors of light. But where I really see the "power up" problem is dumb spells like Extension I, II, III, or the Monster Summoning series. I'd rather handle power-ups with the material component trick I mentioned earlier: Monster Summoning could summon random 1st level monsters unless ingredients are used, in which case the hit dice, form and abilities of the creature summoned are based on those of the creature(s) used as ingredients. Extension could require a gem. I also dislike some of the power variations within a spell based on level that you note in another post. Part of the appeal of OD&D vs. AD&D, to me, is that there are fewer examples of the "Radius: 10 feet per level"/"Duration: 6 turns + 1 turn/level" stuff. Frankly, I'd rather see fewer hard numbers and more "conceptual" ranges and durations, like "cause one room to emit light" (however big the room is, but outdoor areas are unaffected) or "lasts until exposed to an outside change in lighting". Those are actually two changes I've considered for Continual Light. I, for one, have no use for a spell like this. IMHO, while amusing, it is a waste of space in a D&D rulebook. When will players ever select it? The 1% thing looks like a rolling nightmare in cities. I have always seen D&D magic and D&D magic users as people who approach magic in a exploitative, materialistic, utilitarian and abusive mindset. I can't find a reason to select this spell over any of the other, very powerful 3rd level spells. Or the reason is, in the best case, super narrow. I can be convinced otherwise! A magic-user has just turned 5th level. He grabs a 26-sided die to see what 3rd-level spell is in his spellbook. He rolls a 15. "Omar's Mistake? What the...?" It's either that or nothing! Now Omar's poor scion has to get creative. Suppose the magic-user and his companions notice a fighting-man with a dozen mean dogs guarding the treasure they are after. The magic-user hits the fighting-man with Omar's Mistake, and his twelve dogs run away. Now only a single fighting-man stands between them and their rich reward... Even in less-specific situations, the spell is pretty decent as a curse.
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Post by Scott Anderson on Jan 27, 2015 14:36:37 GMT -6
If continual light is a spell which permanently increases the ambient light in an area without regard to walls &c., it's useful in a different way than a point source is.
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Post by talysman on Jan 27, 2015 16:02:31 GMT -6
That's another possibility I've toyed with, Scott. Maybe the best way to distinguish light spells would be:
Glow: An object emits light like a torch without burning Ambient Light: A non-mobile area glows (can't be physically blocked) until the light level is changed again. Were-Light: Dim glowing orb moves where magician points, so long as the magician can seee it. Makes text readable within 10 feet.
(The Were-Light name/idea comes from the Earthsea trilogy. Always wanted a spell called "were-light".)
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Elphilm
Level 3 Conjurer
ELpH vs. Coil
Posts: 68
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Post by Elphilm on Feb 12, 2015 5:29:23 GMT -6
I too love the Eldritch Weirdness spells. They have a charming pulp fantasy vibe that fits OD&D better than any other smattering of additional spells that I've come across. I even like them more than any of the spells added in Greyhawk (Magic Missile is particularly tasteless to me, and even other staples like Strength are tremendously boring).
This gives me the idea that there's another way to reach the satisfying number of a hundred spells without dipping into Greyhawk. Start with the original 70 spells in Men & Magic, add Eldritch Weirdness, and drop the five higher level EW spells down to 6th level. They're hardly overpowered compared to other 6th level spells; Lunar Attraction, for example, is simply a Teleport spell with a set location (the nearest moon) and therefore no chance of error.
I'm not particularly wedded to the idea of there being exactly 100 spells in existence, though. Even if we're using The Dying Earth as our sacred text, the book also includes this line: "Only a few more than a hundred spells remained to the knowledge of man."
Still, the result is a pretty unique spell list that still feels eminently D&D to me:
FIRST LEVEL 1. Charm Person 2. Detect Magic 3. Hold Portal 4. Light 5. Protection from Evil 6. Read Languages 7. Read Magic 8. Sleep
SECOND LEVEL 1. Continual Light 2. Detect Evil 3. Detect Invisible 4. ESP 5. Excruciating Cauterization 6. Force of Forbidment 7. Invisibility 8. Knock 9. Levitate 10. Locate Object 11. Phantasmal Forces 12. Strangulations 13. Tarnu’s Collaring Coiffure 14. Wizard Lock
THIRD LEVEL 1. Ball of Ice 2. Clairaudience 3. Clairvoyance 4. Dispel Magic 5. Filigree 6. Fire Ball 7. Fly 8. Haste Spell 9. Hold Person 10. Infravision 11. Invisibility (10′ radius) 12. Lightning Bolt 13. Omar’s Mistake 14. Protection from Evil (10′ radius) 15. Protection from Normal Missiles 16. Red Bull 17. Rejectment 18. Slow Spell 19. Strange Waters 20. Tarantella 21. Water Breathing 22. Word of IOUN
FOURTH LEVEL 1. Beast of Chaos 2. Charm Monster 3. Confusion 4. Deadly Bliss 5. Dimension Door 6. Growth of Plants 7. Hallucinatory Terrain 8. Hylogenesis 9. Imperfect Suspension 10. Infuse 11. Massmorph 12. Polymorph Others 13. Polymorph Self 14. Remove Curse 15. Seven Gates 16. Wall of Fire 17. Wall of Ice 18. Wizard Eye
FIFTH LEVEL 1. Animate Dead 2. Cloudkill 3. Conjure Elemental 4. Contact Higher Plane 5. Crystallogenesis 6. Deadly Dissolvative 7. Feeblemind 8. Growth of Animals 9. Hold Monster 10. Magic Jar 11. The Magpie 12. Most Horrible Absorption 13. Pass-Wall 14. Six Mouths of Horror 15. Telekinesis 16. Teleport 17. Transmute Rock to Mud 18. Wall of Iron 19. Wall of Stone
SIXTH LEVEL 1. Anti-Magic Shell 2. Borrowed Time 3. The Cohesive Cocoon 4. Control Weather 5. Death Spell 6. Disintegrate 7. Enterragate 8. Geas 9. Invisible Stalker 10. Lower Water 11. Lunar Attraction 12. Move Earth 13. Part Water 14. Projected Image 15. Reincarnation 16. Salamander 17. Slave in Stone 18. Stone to Flesh 19. Twilight of Thieves
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Post by Red Baron on Feb 12, 2015 15:01:58 GMT -6
No anti-magic shell, geas, disintegrate, move earth, control weather- What type of magic-user are you left with then? And how can you have a "Vancian" spell list without Phandaal's Gyrator, Imprisonment, or The Excellent Prismatic Spray?
Six spell levels also makes it easy to randomly roll up spells with a d6. 2d6 (take lowest) gives you a nice rarity/power curve when determining the contents of scrolls. If you hammer out the weird kink in spell advancement at level 11, a magic-user should be getting their first 6th level spell at name level (Assuming one has forsaken St. Vance to the degree of using spell levels).
That said, nice job finding a way to get a list of exactly 100 spells.
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Post by geoffrey on Feb 12, 2015 16:22:49 GMT -6
And how can you have a "Vancian" spell list without Phandaal's Gyrator, Imprisonment, or The Excellent Prismatic Spray? That last one is the real name of magic missile.
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Post by waysoftheearth on Feb 12, 2015 17:41:06 GMT -6
I've always assumed that was the real name of color spray.
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Elphilm
Level 3 Conjurer
ELpH vs. Coil
Posts: 68
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Post by Elphilm on Feb 12, 2015 17:49:28 GMT -6
The closest OD&D equivalent to The Excellent Prismatic Spray as described by Vance is pretty much... Death Spell. Possibly Finger of Death, if you interpret it to affect only a single target. Either way, Prismatic Spray really should be a spell that just kills most things dead.
Although I'm also fond of the AD&D version with elaborate color-based effects.
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Post by Red Baron on Feb 12, 2015 20:08:46 GMT -6
The description in Mazirian the Magician is something akin to "Streaming darts of fire lashed out from Mazirian's hand, tearing their target in a thousand places".
If someone looked up the actual text it would be appreciated.
Geoffrey is absolutely right though in equating it to magic missile. Death spell and disintegrate are good options too though, if you're looking to rename spells.
Changing invisibility to Phandaal's mantle of stealth and breathe water to the Charm of Untiring Nourishment are easy pickin's too.
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Post by Zulgyan on Feb 12, 2015 22:39:33 GMT -6
A posted this a while ago:
The Excellent Prismatic Spray Level: 6 Range: 70’ long plane; 10’ wide at end, 5’ wide at base When this spell is cast, the magic-user causes 7 scintillating rays of all the seven colors of the visible spectrum to spring from his or her hand. Any creature in the area of effect will be touched by 1 or more of the rays. To determine which ray strikes the concerned creature, roll on eight-sided die: 1 = red: 10 hit points of damage 2 = orange: 20 hit points of damage 3 = yellow: 30 hit points of damage 4 = green: save vs. poison or dead 5 = blue: save vs. petrification or turned to stone 6 = indigo: save vs. wand or insane 7 = violet: save vs. spells or sent to another plane. 8 = struck by 2 rays, roll again
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Post by geoffrey on Feb 12, 2015 22:49:09 GMT -6
The description in Mazirian the Magician is something akin to "Streaming darts of fire lashed out from Mazirian's hand, tearing their target in a thousand places". If someone looked up the actual text it would be appreciated. "...all the valley was lit by streaming darts of fire, lashing in from all directions to split Thrang's blundering body in a thousand places. This was the Excellent Prismatic Spray--many-colored stabbing lines. Thrang was dead almost at once, purple blood flowing from countless holes where the radiant rain had pierced him." (from "Mazirian the Magician") There is also this: "Instantly the blazing wires of the Excellent Prismatic Spray lashed from all directions at Turjan. Kandive watched the furious rain with a wolfish grin, but his expression changed quickly to consternation. A finger's breadth from Turjan's skin the fire-darts dissolved into a thousand gray puffs of smoke." (from "Turjan of Miir") The Dying Earth is one of my favorite books.
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Post by Red Baron on Feb 13, 2015 9:37:32 GMT -6
I forgot that Turjan uses that spell too. There's another d&d spell from vance: Anti-magic shell is the Omnipotent Sphere.
I like d&d's prismatic sphere better than its prismatic spray. While the sphere offers a puzzle to players, and forces them to seek out sages/experiment with spells,scrolls, and magic items, the prismatic spray just auto-kills everything is a large area and doesn't jive with vance's description.
Also Geoffrey, would this mean that players are incapable of formulating their own spells? Since Phandaal was a necromancer, would Necromancer be the name-level at which this is possible?
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Post by geoffrey on Feb 13, 2015 11:35:14 GMT -6
Also Geoffrey, would this mean that players are incapable of formulating their own spells? Since Phandaal was a necromancer, would Necromancer be the name-level at which this is possible? My players have almost never invented their own spells. Too lazy, I guess. If they ever want to formulate some more spells, though, I would let them. As for level, they can invent any spell they want as long as they are high enough level to cast it. I would hope that any invented spell would be more interesting than: A glob/ball/bolt/beam/sheet/etc. of fire/ice/energy/electricity/etc. shoots out and does X/Y/Z points of damage.
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premmy
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Posts: 295
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Post by premmy on Feb 13, 2015 14:28:23 GMT -6
My players have almost never invented their own spells. Too lazy, I guess. If they ever want to formulate some more spells, though, I would let them. Bless you. For me, it'd "my DMs have almost never allowed us to invent our own spells". Even though I DO have a character right now who will soon reach a high enough level to do just that...
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Post by tkdco2 on Feb 13, 2015 15:55:42 GMT -6
Elphilm: What is the "Red Bull" spell? All I can think about it is giving the caster wings. Sorry, couldn't help it.
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Elphilm
Level 3 Conjurer
ELpH vs. Coil
Posts: 68
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Post by Elphilm on Feb 14, 2015 5:27:01 GMT -6
That was my first thought too! Geoffrey gave brief descriptions of the level 1-5 spells on page 1: Red Bull: target goes nuts when he sees the color red
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Post by tkdco2 on Feb 14, 2015 16:35:19 GMT -6
D'oh! I missed that description the first time. Thanks for clarifying it.
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Post by Finarvyn on Feb 15, 2015 6:03:11 GMT -6
What I'm a bit wobbly on is repetitive spells, or spells that are simply "power ups" of lower level spells. That's actually one strength of the 5E rules for spellcasters. In 5E wizards have fewer spells, but spells can often be "over-cast" at higher level for greater effect. Casting a fire ball as a 4th level spell instead of 3rd, for example, gives extra dice of damage. A cure wounds spell can be cast higher level to cure more hit points. This sort of system helps to remove the repetitive spells and allow a wizard to diversify somewhat.
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