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Post by jakdethe on Dec 18, 2014 11:58:29 GMT -6
I run most of my OD&D games with a horror atmosphere blended into the fantasy. First level characters plundering unknown underworlds full of unnatural monsters that can deliver grisly death without warning. Doesn't require special rules or adventures, just proper descriptive tone. After the first time players watch a screaming hireling dragging himself across the floor on fire after getting his legs bit off by a giant lizard, the atmosphere will be established. ;-) I would kill to play in that campaign!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2014 13:42:17 GMT -6
How and where were OD&D variants labeled "indie"? I have not heard or seen that and don't understand how they could be considered part of that. Please explain. Not sure what you mean, here. Perhaps the language bareer hitting? - LotFP, S&W, LL, Dagger, and so on, are "indie" rpgs, in that they are published by small press publishers, and rely mostly on mouth-to-mouth advertisement. That's what I'd define by "indie". I run most of my OD&D games with a horror atmosphere blended into the fantasy. First level characters plundering unknown underworlds full of unnatural monsters that can deliver grisly death without warning. Doesn't require special rules or adventures, just proper descriptive tone. After the first time players watch a screaming hireling dragging himself across the floor on fire after getting his legs bit off by a giant lizard, the atmosphere will be established. ;-) I've bad experiences with people not understanding the change in atmosphere - as in, "yay, it's just ONE big werewolf, let's go and make a stand". That said, ALL my games are more horror than fantasy, with the huge influence from Ravenloft, which might be my personal base for all roleplaying; it's just player reaction and expectation that I try to consider when picking the system.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2014 14:08:09 GMT -6
How and where were OD&D variants labeled "indie"? I have not heard or seen that and don't understand how they could be considered part of that. Please explain. Not sure what you mean, here. Perhaps the language bareer hitting? - LotFP, S&W, LL, Dagger, and so on, are "indie" rpgs, in that they are published by small press publishers, and rely mostly on mouth-to-mouth advertisement. That's what I'd define by "indie". Ah, that is what "indie" is, I thought it meant as far from old school D&D as you could possibly get! Oops!
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Post by Fearghus on Dec 18, 2014 15:56:18 GMT -6
Truth to be told, I think D&D, regardless of edition, is not really fit for horror games; the only problem is, outside of nWoD, I have found few games that are easy and at the same time, quick to learn for beginners, and so, I stick to the easy choice. I find nWoD to be a fine system. I am not fond of the setting presented, but as a system it is excellent and easy to use/learn. There is a supplement book called Mirrors which gives some neat examples of a couple alternate rules to have Lovecraftian settings, fantasy, dark fantasy, etc. My current project is some little tweaks for a Tolkien setting.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2014 17:19:09 GMT -6
Ah, that is what "indie" is, I thought it meant as far from old school D&D as you could possibly get! Oops! "Indie" is one of those words with no precise meaning, or, more exactly, a word that no two people mean the same thing when using it. Go down that path at your peril.
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Post by geoffrey on Dec 18, 2014 17:39:41 GMT -6
For me, the six stats of strength, intelligence, wisdom, constitution, dexterity, and charisma are essential to D&D. I would feel forlorn with a character sheet without them. They give me a quick-and-dirty character profile. Let's roll one just for fun, 3d6 in order, set in stone: strength: 11 intelligence: 10 wisdom: 7 constitution: 10 dexterity: 7 charisma: 7 Not pretty: Here's a man who excels in nothing, yet is rude, clumsy, and lacking in common sense. Let's do it!
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Post by Merctime on Dec 18, 2014 18:08:26 GMT -6
Geoffrey, you are a man after my own heart!
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Post by blackbarn on Dec 19, 2014 0:45:54 GMT -6
I like the no ability scores idea in theory, but I don't think I could ditch them, as for me they are the essential foundation of a character. In my group we roll them and then let that inform what kind of character will be created.
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Post by snorri on Dec 19, 2014 3:55:32 GMT -6
SotU is a good test for a stat-less d&d. But I must admit mots of the time, like Geoffrey, 3d6 six time in order is the best base for a PC.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2014 5:45:14 GMT -6
Truth to be told, I think D&D, regardless of edition, is not really fit for horror games; the only problem is, outside of nWoD, I have found few games that are easy and at the same time, quick to learn for beginners, and so, I stick to the easy choice. I find nWoD to be a fine system. I am not fond of the setting presented, but as a system it is excellent and easy to use/learn. There is a supplement book called Mirrors which gives some neat examples of a couple alternate rules to have Lovecraftian settings, fantasy, dark fantasy, etc. My current project is some little tweaks for a Tolkien setting. Bingo. It's the very best rule system that I have ever encountered to play - ordinary, everyday humans. Some of my longest campaigns were nWoD, and a fan-made nWoD fantasy variant; the setting, I don't care for, at all, but the system really served my purpose. I don't know the Mirrors book, but I will have to get it, now... (I was first exposed to the system in a Cthulhu one-shot game.)
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mannclay
Level 4 Theurgist
...you know what you are not, what you are you cannot know... - insane sorcerer
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Post by mannclay on Dec 19, 2014 9:52:40 GMT -6
For me, the six stats of strength, intelligence, wisdom, constitution, dexterity, and charisma are essential to D&D. I would feel forlorn with a character sheet without them. They give me a quick-and-dirty character profile. Let's roll one just for fun, 3d6 in order, set in stone: strength: 11 intelligence: 10 wisdom: 7 constitution: 10 dexterity: 7 charisma: 7 Not pretty: Here's a man who excels in nothing, yet is rude, clumsy, and lacking in common sense. Let's do it! Wow, I think I always wanted to explain those stats like that but never worded it out. Well said, sir. I use them for action resolution with +/- added when necessary.
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Post by Finarvyn on Dec 20, 2014 5:16:06 GMT -6
Ah, that is what "indie" is, I thought it meant as far from old school D&D as you could possibly get! Oops! "Indie" is one of those words with no precise meaning, or, more exactly, a word that no two people mean the same thing when using it. Go down that path at your peril. Unfortunately, too many folks on the internet get hung up on verbiage. The same way that some folks place special connotation to the term "OSR", there are others who label "Indie" as a specific thing. For many, rather than simply being a small-press independent company, Indie is a style of play discussed on the Forge. It's games like FATE and My Life with Master. It's more of an angsty artsy thing rather than a traditional D&D style of play. At least, that's my take on what they mean by it. Labels can be good sometimes, in that they convey lots of meaning in a small space, but as we all know labels can be a bad thing in that others automatically assume you mean the same thing that they do with the term. And on the internet, where you can't get voice inflection and other cues, often someone will for no particular reason take offense and come back with guns blazing when the original poster may have meant nothing at all like how it was interpreted. Sigh. Then some poor schlub moderator has to ask "do I lock the thread, make it go away, or just pretend it never happened...." Another example that always bugged me is the term "Grognard" (original meaning that of an old soldier) which dating back to the 1960-1970 era was used to label board-and-chit style wargamers, but somewhere along the line got associated with old school RPG players. That one still throws me because I see the term and immediately think "wargamer" but usually that's not what is meant anymore. Stinks to get old, I guess. All of the "true" wargamer grognards seem to have died off or moved on to other things. Sorry for the total derail. It just popped into my head and asked to get out.
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Post by Merctime on Dec 20, 2014 9:17:05 GMT -6
... on the internet, where you can't get voice inflection and other cues, often someone will for no particular reason take offense and come back with guns blazing when the original poster may have meant nothing at all like how it was interpreted. Emphasis mine. This is one of the wisest perceptions of this type of behavior/occurrence/phenomena I've read online, to date. For this precise reason, I choose personally to stay totally out of online discussions that are just going to explode into inflammatory nonsense with no hope of peaceful resolution. Those kinds of discussions are typically, in my experience, easily seen a mile away. Nice shot, Fin. Anywho, regarding the minimalist OD&D play, I have to agree with Geoffrey, above. I can't remember if I've already said that; I hope I'm not being a broken record! But the reason I play OD&D/Delving Deeper is because for myself, it already is minimalist. No huge ability modifiers that promote players thinking 'low stats make a useless character', no ridiculous and silly feats/skills that basically keep players from coming up with interesting things to do in-game ("But, my character doesn't have 15 ranks in horsemanship! There is no way he can jump that fenceline at full gallop!! There's no point in trying!!"), and none of this 'building' a character from level 20 downwards to promote a perfect set of numbers for perfect success. There are no useless characters. Ya just roll some dice, buy some equipment, jump in the dungeon... And explore it. Trying to keep your character alive through good decision making. And when you're done, you've got a great story to tell your friends, irregardless of whether or not you were able to keep your character alive Viva la OD&D!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2014 16:03:55 GMT -6
All of the "true" wargamer grognards seem to have died off or moved on to other things. OI! Also, "Grognard" was originally a MINIATURES wargamer, not a hex and chit wargamer. If you find the issues of Strategy & Tactics from the late 60s featuring the "Siege of Bodenberg," you'll find a letter complaining about how these "new" Avalon Hill "cardboard and paper" games are ruining "real" wargaming. Le plus ca change, le plus c'est la meme chose.Also, haven't you ever been to Gary Con? THAT's where you find Grognards in their native habitat. Last year I played CHAINMAIL, TRACTICS, and DON'T GIVE UP THE SHIP. DGUTS was with Mike Carr, Dave Wesley, Bill Hoyt, and me! It felt like 1975 again.
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Post by tetramorph on Dec 20, 2014 17:37:41 GMT -6
This thread is officially derailed, so, well, here goes: Speaking of grognards, There is a great FLGS in town that is famous for driving out the RPG folks from the camp! They do go, chess, board games and, in the main, hard-core miniature war-gaming!
Then they hired one of my old college buddies to work there. I ran into him buying some new dice. I mentioned the climate at my favorite FLGS and noted that my game group play it OS, so could we maybe meet here now, as a shoe in?
So now they let our 0e playing group meet there. I feel like I just graduated to something.
Last time I DMed it was awesome. These grognards were playing "ancient" (as in David and Goliath with horses too small to ride on). They showed me all about what they were doing. Then they started asking me about our game. They were really fascinated by dragon subduing. "Really, you can do that?" So I discussed the "legendaria" that 0e engages and we had a great conversation. It was fun as we both realized that we were trying to be "true" to something we geeked out about: them, military history, us, classical and medieval western legend.
Very cool.
Okay, now back on topic you guys! Sheesh!
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Post by dukeofchutney on Dec 20, 2014 17:48:14 GMT -6
There's quite a number of hex and counter folk who identify as grognards over at Consimworld or boardgamegeek.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2014 7:01:59 GMT -6
Unfortunately, too many folks on the internet get hung up on verbiage. The same way that some folks place special connotation to the term "OSR", there are others who label "Indie" as a specific thing. For many, rather than simply being a small-press independent company, Indie is a style of play discussed on the Forge. It's games like FATE and My Life with Master. It's more of an angsty artsy thing rather than a traditional D&D style of play. At least, that's my take on what they mean by it. Labels can be good sometimes, in that they convey lots of meaning in a small space, but as we all know labels can be a bad thing in that others automatically assume you mean the same thing that they do with the term. And on the internet, where you can't get voice inflection and other cues, often someone will for no particular reason take offense and come back with guns blazing when the original poster may have meant nothing at all like how it was interpreted. Sigh. Then some poor schlub moderator has to ask "do I lock the thread, make it go away, or just pretend it never happened...." Another example that always bugged me is the term "Grognard" (original meaning that of an old soldier) which dating back to the 1960-1970 era was used to label board-and-chit style wargamers, but somewhere along the line got associated with old school RPG players. That one still throws me because I see the term and immediately think "wargamer" but usually that's not what is meant anymore. Stinks to get old, I guess. All of the "true" wargamer grognards seem to have died off or moved on to other things. Sorry for the total derail. It just popped into my head and asked to get out. FWIW, (and to the rest of our good readership, all obviously speaking with my mod hat OFF) my personal opinion concerning geek semantics is, if it's your brand, or your movement, or whatever, then YOU are the ones that need to make sure that your vocabulary gets understood. - People who run niche operations in the industry are always quick with the hijacking and forced redefining of commonplace terms, from "Indie" to "old school". In my personal opinion, it's just an attempt to gain a relevance that their own operations, by themselves, would not grant them. All the power to anyone who runs an independent publishing company, or tries to enrich the hobby with new ideas and impulses, but too many self-appointed "rpg scholars" mistake being allowed to talk with having a following.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2014 7:07:00 GMT -6
Sounds more brutal than I intended to; my apologies, for sure I was not looking to offend any of you guys around here. One of the reasons why I like this board is that you are a great crowd here. But on the topic at hand, I am unapologetic; quite simply, as my old friend Rizak would say, quite simply: "[Another person] is not the DM of mine!"
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Post by kesher on Dec 22, 2014 14:21:55 GMT -6
For me, the six stats of strength, intelligence, wisdom, constitution, dexterity, and charisma are essential to D&D. I would feel forlorn with a character sheet without them. They give me a quick-and-dirty character profile. Let's roll one just for fun, 3d6 in order, set in stone: strength: 11 intelligence: 10 wisdom: 7 constitution: 10 dexterity: 7 charisma: 7 Not pretty: Here's a man who excels in nothing, yet is rude, clumsy, and lacking in common sense. Let's do it! Now make him a cleric, and you're all set...
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2014 14:45:58 GMT -6
"Indie" is one of those words with no precise meaning, or, more exactly, a word that no two people mean the same thing when using it. Go down that path at your peril. Unfortunately, too many folks on the internet get hung up on verbiage. The same way that some folks place special connotation to the term "OSR", there are others who label "Indie" as a specific thing. For many, rather than simply being a small-press independent company, Indie is a style of play discussed on the Forge. It's games like FATE and My Life with Master. It's more of an angsty artsy thing rather than a traditional D&D style of play. At least, that's my take on what they mean by it. That's what I thought it meant and IMO The Forge and what I understand the OSR to be about (from other threads on here) are as far apart as the east is from the west. Labels can be good sometimes, in that they convey lots of meaning in a small space, but as we all know labels can be a bad thing in that others automatically assume you mean the same thing that they do with the term. And on the internet, where you can't get voice inflection and other cues, often someone will for no particular reason take offense and come back with guns blazing when the original poster may have meant nothing at all like how it was interpreted. Sigh. Then some poor schlub moderator has to ask "do I lock the thread, make it go away, or just pretend it never happened...." Another example that always bugged me is the term "Grognard" (original meaning that of an old soldier) which dating back to the 1960-1970 era was used to label board-and-chit style wargamers, but somewhere along the line got associated with old school RPG players. That one still throws me because I see the term and immediately think "wargamer" but usually that's not what is meant anymore. Stinks to get old, I guess. All of the "true" wargamer grognards seem to have died off or moved on to other things. Sorry for the total derail. It just popped into my head and asked to get out. It is a shame when a label is widely used and there is not a common widely held agreement on what the label means. That is why I was confused and asked the question above since Indie and OSR would IMO seem to be antonyms not synonyms. Again not trying to pick a fight at all, just trying to clarify what was being talked about and Fins post is more what I thought the definitions were, i.e. both are specifically descriptive of two different styles of play. IMO, again just IMO, if Indie is used to just mean small independent press without reference to the type of product IMO it would seem to have no purpose, since I would think most of us want labels that inform us of "is this worth buying or not", as I want to support old school gaming and do not personally have time or the inclination to go beyond that, although if I am not the one reffing I will try about anything.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2014 14:53:30 GMT -6
Sounds more brutal than I intended to; my apologies, for sure I was not looking to offend any of you guys around here. One of the reasons why I like this board is that you are a great crowd here. But on the topic at hand, I am unapologetic; quite simply, as my old friend Rizak would say, quite simply: "[Another person] is not the DM of mine!" Nothing brutal about it. Shame (or maybe not ) that there is not a webpage listing the most egregious of the "always quick with the hijacking and forced redefining of commonplace terms" people who claim there product is something it is not.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2014 14:55:31 GMT -6
For me, the six stats of strength, intelligence, wisdom, constitution, dexterity, and charisma are essential to D&D. I would feel forlorn with a character sheet without them. They give me a quick-and-dirty character profile. Let's roll one just for fun, 3d6 in order, set in stone: strength: 11 intelligence: 10 wisdom: 7 constitution: 10 dexterity: 7 charisma: 7 Not pretty: Here's a man who excels in nothing, yet is rude, clumsy, and lacking in common sense. Let's do it! Now make him a cleric, and you're all set... Hey in OD&D (3LBBS) that can be any of the three core classes and be successful. That is the beauty of OD&D.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2014 21:09:10 GMT -6
It is a shame when a label is widely used and there is not a common widely held agreement on what the label means. That is why I was confused and asked the question above since Indie and OSR would IMO seem to be antonyms not synonyms. Again not trying to pick a fight at all, just trying to clarify what was being talked about and Fins post is more what I thought the definitions were, i.e. both are specifically descriptive of two different styles of play. IMO, again just IMO, if Indie is used to just mean small independent press without reference to the type of product IMO it would seem to have no purpose, since I would think most of us want labels that inform us of "is this worth buying or not", as I want to support old school gaming and do not personally have time or the inclination to go beyond that, although if I am not the one reffing I will try about anything. To be fair, the term indie in general English language does mean small independent work. Indie to mean Forge style games is the issue because it doesn't mean what the word means in general English usage. Although not ideal, using story game or something similar would be a better label for those games. Now as to whether or not indie in terms of print rpgs is useful, that is a valid point. When 99% of companies making the product do so part time, it does lose something.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2014 21:24:25 GMT -6
It is a shame when a label is widely used and there is not a common widely held agreement on what the label means. That is why I was confused and asked the question above since Indie and OSR would IMO seem to be antonyms not synonyms. Again not trying to pick a fight at all, just trying to clarify what was being talked about and Fins post is more what I thought the definitions were, i.e. both are specifically descriptive of two different styles of play. IMO, again just IMO, if Indie is used to just mean small independent press without reference to the type of product IMO it would seem to have no purpose, since I would think most of us want labels that inform us of "is this worth buying or not", as I want to support old school gaming and do not personally have time or the inclination to go beyond that, although if I am not the one reffing I will try about anything. To be fair, the term indie in general English language does mean small independent work. Indie to mean Forge style games is the issue because it doesn't mean what the word means in general English usage. Although not ideal, using story game or something similar would be a better label for those games. Now as to whether or not indie in terms of print rpgs is useful, that is a valid point. When 99% of companies making the product do so part time, it does lose something. Until I went and looked it up for its original usage I didn't even know it was a real word (ie more than 10 years old).
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Post by geoffrey on Dec 22, 2014 21:37:34 GMT -6
Now make him a cleric, and you're all set... Hey in OD&D (3LBBS) that can be any of the three core classes and be successful. That is the beauty of OD&D. Exactly right. One of my favorite characters is a magic-user with an intelligence of 3. No measly intelligence score was going to keep me from playing a magic-user!
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Post by Red Baron on Dec 22, 2014 23:57:42 GMT -6
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Post by Porphyre on Dec 23, 2014 4:36:45 GMT -6
Now make him a cleric, and you're all set... Hey in OD&D (3LBBS) that can be any of the three core classes and be successful. That is the beauty of OD&D. Lately, for online play-by-post games, I tend to roll everything : stats, class, alignment, equipement ...
I ended up once with a Chaotic cleric with a 5 as Wisdom score, but 15 in Intelligence. I had much fun playing him like a "burn'em all!" lunatic who had got kicked out of his order by too much studying forbidden tomes of heretical teachings.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2014 10:34:57 GMT -6
I am enthusiastic about random generation of all character information. How do you generate your equipment?
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Post by kesher on Dec 23, 2014 11:24:42 GMT -6
coffee, this is where you should chime in with your ideas...
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Post by Porphyre on Dec 23, 2014 12:43:30 GMT -6
I am enthusiastic about random generation of all character information. How do you generate your equipment? I used some personnal tables, now I use necropraxis' table you can find here : www.necropraxis.com/2012/07/20/odd-equipment/
(except for the scrolls, at least when I use them as player).
I also use Cris Kutalik's background generator: hillcantons.blogspot.fr/2009/04/revised-character-background-generator.html
I also had a home-made table of religious taboos for clerics : mine was obliged to wear ritual paintings , to give Cure/Healing spells to anyone who asked for (including ennemies and/or other alignments) and forbidden to speak to members of the other sex.
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