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Post by geoffrey on Sept 29, 2011 19:03:09 GMT -6
One of the things I like better about 1974 D&D than any later iterations are the dragons. Starting in early 1975 with the GREYHAWK supplement, dragons got 3 melee attacks that cause quite a bit of damage.
But in the 1974 rules, a dragon (any dragon) does as much damage per round as does a kobold or a magic-user with a dagger: 1-6 points.
So consider a white dragon with 5 hit points. Where's the proper place to put it? On the 1st level of the dungeon. There is no reason in the world that 1st-level PCs shouldn't encounter dragons.
Sure, this little white dragon has an AC of 2. But so does the 1st-level fighting-man with plate and shield. Sure, the dragon can attack at range. But so can the fighting-men with bows. And the dragon might be asleep!
The dragon's bite does 1-6 points of damage (just like the PCs' weapons), and its breath does 5 points (or 2 or 3 points if saved against). That's not a deal-breaker.
So dragons in the 1974 rules, more so than any other version, are suitable opponents for all levels of PCs.
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Post by Ynas Midgard on Sept 29, 2011 19:22:23 GMT -6
That is a most appealing thing in those rules.
I hate when I cannot throw my favourite monsters on the PCs because that would be "unfair"...
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Post by spacemonkeydm on Sept 30, 2011 10:18:59 GMT -6
I never thought about it, being new and all. I think my players need to run into a baby dragon now. Nice baby fire breathing dragon, just attacked it first caravan and bullied some kobolds into worshiping it.
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Post by Sean Michael Kelly on Sept 30, 2011 10:50:28 GMT -6
you know, the crazy thing is that when I was young and first played b/x-1e back in the earlies 80's..... I NEVER had the opportunity to fight a dragon. Even funnier, then after taknig over as the default DM/GM in nearly every game.... dragons are always rarely encountered and never have I had the opporunity to run one! I'm going to need to fix this ASAP....
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Post by coffee on Sept 30, 2011 13:17:26 GMT -6
This is awesome! Have an exalt for this.
One thing, though: The first level fighting-man in plate and shield still needs a 17 to hit the dragon's AC 2. But the dragon only needs a 12 to hit the fighting-man.
Even with only 1 pip per die, the dragon still hits as a 5 hit dice monster.
But that's not a deal breaker, because the fighting-man has friends with him. Odds are, the dragon is alone. It should be a pretty good fight.
And just think of the bragging rights, when they bring the head back to town!
I'm definitely putting a dragon on the first level of my next dungeon.
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Post by cooper on Sept 30, 2011 14:05:18 GMT -6
Dragons in the 1974 rules had multiple attacks per round, just not with the alternate combat system  Even the smallest 5hd white could roll 5 attacks per round, there is a reason they don't show up on the wandering monster chart for 1st level pc's. |
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Post by foxroe on Sept 30, 2011 18:11:33 GMT -6
Something else that I find interesting about 0ed dragons (considering your point, Geoffrey) is their treatment in Vol.III. If you look at the Monster Determination matrix on pgs.10-11, dragons don't begin to show up until the third dungeon level. On the Wilderness tables (pg.18) they have a 1 in 6* (and sometimes better) chance of showing up during anything but a city encounter. So in both of these cases, do you determine HD/age randomly, or do you scale the dragon according to the party, or do you base it on “dungeon level”? Great thread idea, BTW! This is a subject worthy of discussing to death. *Not considering lost vs. encounter chances, BTW. |
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Post by Morandir on Sept 30, 2011 18:42:07 GMT -6
This happened once during a game; the PCs (all 2nd or 3rd level, IIRC) were traveling from one town to another, and randomly encountered a white dragon. I rolled randomly for age category - I can't remember now what the result was - and for its reaction to the PCs. I got a neutral reaction, not that it mattered. The instant it swooped over the PCs (to scare them for fun), the Elf hit it with her wand of paralysis. Of course it failed its save, and found itself wrapped in layers of rope.
It first promised to lead them to its hoard if they freed it and (I still can't believe they did this) they agreed, and freed it. It of course simply flew away. Another attempt with the paralysis wand failed, after which it was out of range.
So yeah, dragon encounters can happen any time and don't always have to result in combat. This to me is one of the great things about the combination of random encounter and reaction tables - you never know what's going to happen!
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Post by foxroe on Sept 30, 2011 20:33:23 GMT -6
Very cool, Morandir! While some would say that the actions of the party were bordering on foolhardy, I like the way you handled it as DM. Dragons aren't dumb party-fodder. I imagine that dragon is slowly plotting its revenge. |
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Post by Morandir on Oct 1, 2011 13:53:26 GMT -6
Oh, it would be if we were still playing...unfortunately we're not. The upside is I have time to prepare my megadungeon/sandbox game for later, which is coming along nicely!
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jjarvis
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Posts: 278
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Post by jjarvis on Oct 1, 2011 14:58:13 GMT -6
Put that 5HD dragon agaisnt 5 first level fighters in plate and shield and the fighters win in two rounds with some loses.
The 5 fighters are each likely to inflict 0.7 pts of damage a round agaisnt the dragon for a likely 3.5 points of damage vs the Dragon.
The 5HD dragon with it's 5 attacks is likely to inflict 7.88 pts of damage around vs the fighters, assuming all these blows strike a single fighter that's 1 dead fighter a round.
The are likely to win with 2 loses vs the dragon. If they win initiative.
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Post by cooper on Oct 1, 2011 15:41:21 GMT -6
In a 10' hallway, the Dragons breath should hit all the fighters each round. Average 1st level fighters hitpoints is 4.5 (1+1 hd). Only 2 or 3 fighters can fight in the hall, dragon kills all 5 fighters in 2 rounds regardless of saves, fighters take longer at least 3 rounds.
Their best bet is a charge with spears in formation (3 abreast) doing doible dame in the first round, or two rows of archers 3+2. Unfortunately, only heroes were meant to fight dragons so the +1 weapon requirement was formulated and none of the 1st level fighters stand a chance.
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Post by geoffrey on Oct 1, 2011 17:48:43 GMT -6
Dragons will bite instead of breathe on a roll of 2, 3, 4, 5, or 6 on 2d6.  |
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Post by foxroe on Oct 1, 2011 19:07:39 GMT -6
However, OD&D dragons are not like in later editions. If a dragon is encountered randomly, HD/age is normally determined randomly. PC's may face a tiny, relatively harmless "newt", or they may stumble upon a huge elder on the hunt for large sources of meat and treasure. Smart PC's assume the worst case and avoid the dragon, biding their time and planning their foray, if they feel they should assault it. Foolish PC's think that the DM has designed a dragon encounter tailored to their needs. After all, the game is called "Dungeons and DRAGONS", not "Dungeons and Easy-XP". Just sayin'. |
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Post by cooper on Oct 3, 2011 14:46:37 GMT -6
I'll also point out that even the smallest white dragon is worth 2,500-5,000gp on the open market if subdued.
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Post by DungeonDevil on Oct 3, 2011 15:19:39 GMT -6
Am I the only soul to opine that it would be very unsporting to pitch a wee bairn dragon upon a party? Wasn't there a uncomfortably awkward painting by Elmore showing a puffed up party posing with their foetal, draconic victim? Any proper Paladin would surely sheathe his arm and tell the little bugger to scamper off and think about bothering him in a few more years.  |
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Post by aldarron on Oct 4, 2011 9:00:10 GMT -6
great discussion. Also worth noting that bigger, older dragons should be doing more damage, (ala sea monsters), multiple d6 per hit.
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jjarvis
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Posts: 278
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Post by jjarvis on Oct 7, 2011 7:47:08 GMT -6
The main use for dragons and low level characters should be to teach the players to run or be darned clever.
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Post by blackbarn on Oct 10, 2011 20:21:54 GMT -6
Don't forget, even a small evil dragon is evil... that means they are a threat, and it's ok to eliminate them. |
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Post by waysoftheearth on Oct 14, 2011 23:32:47 GMT -6
Orcs are a mainstay evil doer in many D&D campaigns, and very frequently encountered by 1st (and low) level PCs.
According to Monsters & Treasure (page 7) there is a 10% chance per 100 Orcs that any Orcish cave lair also contains a Dragon!
There's a rude shock for your would be Orc butchers ;D
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Post by waysoftheearth on Oct 15, 2011 2:50:58 GMT -6
Don't forget, even a small evil dragon is evil... that means they are a threat, and it's ok to eliminate them. That may be so in later versions of the game (including the version with the afore mentioned picture), but in OD&D all Dragons (other than Gold Dragons, which are lawful) are aligned toward both Neutrality and Chaos. That might mean a non-Gold Dragon is equally likely to be neutral as it is chaotic. In AD&D, Blue and Green Dragons are noted as lawful evil, while White, Black and Red Dragons are noted as chaotic evil. One might, perhaps, take this to imply that (in OD&D terms) the blue and green varieties are more likely to be neutral, while the black, red and white varieties are more likely to be chaotic. Perhaps |
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