INT, WIS and CHA

We actually discussed some of this back in an ancient thread called Non Combat Statistics. I think that it's important to find good uses for all six of the stats and not just the three obvious combat ones, but sadly this often is a function of campaign style. If you have a highly social city campaign, for example, charisma will probably come into play more often than in a dungeon crawl.

This is so true in real life. I can think of many times when what I said sounded so much more better in my head, but after it comes out it clearly wasn't even close to what I intended to say!

I like Trent's idea. The thought is the player expresses intent (just like he does in combat), but the dice determine effect. It still gets the players role playing (because they have to express their intent), but allows the scores to have meaning.

Of course that works great for charisma, less so for intelligence and wisdom. But, you can still make use of intelligence and wisdom that way if you want. Pick out the players intent from his stated action, and use intelligence or wisdom to determine success.

I think the real danger in not having attributes and dice and rules be meaningful is that all too often GM favoritism comes into play. Of course you can never eliminate GM favoritism, but you can set things up so that it's more constrained to the scope of the game and less to individual events in play.

Frank

The way I'd use Int in this way would be, for instance, if the character was trying to remember some detail (somebody's name, or the relationship between two NPCs, or if a set of glyphs are familiar, etc.) that the player had forgotten. If the character has a high Int score I will, as GM, either give the player hints or outright tell him the answer, but if he has a low Int score it's up to the player to remember things (which means a smart player could "game" having a dumb character, but since I don't allow players to choose where their stats go, and since there are other tangible benefits to having a good Int (languages, XP for mages) I don't see this as too big a problem -- another way around this is that if the player with the 6 Int character remembers something or figures out the puzzle, I might declare that in-game it must have actually been a higher-Int character who did so).

Wis is tougher because, unlike Int or Cha, it doesn't have any defined quantified in-game effect (except XP for clerics). Giving high Wis characters a bonus (and low-Wis characters a penalty) against mind-effecting spells (charm, delusion, etc.) is a common house rule (that of course became official in AD&D and Moldvay+ Classic D&D). I'll also occasionally use Wisdom to give hints or advice if a player with an ostensibly his-Wis character is about to do something that I as GM think is particularly foolish. The same thing about putting one player's words into another character's mouth mentioned above for Int might also apply here -- if a player with a Wis 4 character comes up with a good plan or makes a particularly cogent observation we'll "edit the mental scene" to put those words into the mouth of a higher-Wis character if possible & appropriate.

And, leaving all of this aside, there's the non-mechanical "gentlemen's agreement" that the player should generally at least make an attempt to portray his character in keeping with that character's stats -- with low stats, but with high ones too -- if you've got a high-Int character you should probably take more notes and try to pay attention and think logically about things; if you've got a high-Wis character you should try to look at the bigger picture and not act rashly, if you've got a high-Cha character you should make at least some attempt to behave in an engaging manner. Yeah, there's nothing mechanical to mandate or reward this, but it's just "understood" as part of the game, just like if you're playing an elf you should try to act at least a little "elfy," if you're playing a mage you should act at least a little "wizardy," and so on.

Tunnels & Trolls doesn't have Wisdom, but does have Luck.

If you define luck as the favour of the gods, it makes sense that a cleric should have a high amount of it.

Alternatively, you could define Wisdom as 'common sense', and apply it to such things as money management between games ('sorry, you drank away all the treasure last time' - which is also good genre-emulation).

This is an interesting thread. INT and WIS are more problematic than CHA in my opinion. CHA has real in-game use as mentioned by Makofan, and I do use reaction, morale and hireling rules quite a bit IMC.

In the past, I always assumed INT was IQ, problem solving and learning capacity, while WIS was knowledge, the quality of being well-read, and education.

In medieval times, the Clergy were the well-read scholars and typically the protectors of the written word.

In fantasy terms, and in D&D terms, I think people assume that Magic Users are the book worms. Instead I tend to think of them as those men capable of understanding, deciphering and utilizing complex magical formulae through superior IQ.

MU-Mathematicians
Clerics-Scholars

I love the suggested WIS as a blanket EXP bonus modifer, and I might just yoink that idea and tailor it for a future Solstice project. It certainly makes sense.

For the OD&D three-pronged crown I am always harping about, I like the fact that STR-INT-WIS don't do much of anything bonus wise except as a prime requisite. CON-DEX-CHA all do their own little thing, and really in the OD&D system, I think CHA is a vastly impactful ability relative to the other five.

In terms of role-play, INT and WIS are a bit tricky. I've used WIS as a roll-play tool before, to see if someone might recognize or gather a basic understanding of some ancient writing, or recognize the relevance of some strange historical passage or reference. INT as IQ is very difficult to apply in RP terms, though.

These are the kinds of threads that make me like this forum so much; just reading about how other referees handle these situations is great brain food.