HD types: d6+1; d6; d6-1

I'm curious what the change is for?

Hit Dice are already reasonably balanced based on how quickly XP is earned and how many per level.

At level 1, they are all the same, yes. But, at 8,000XP the FM is at 4HD, the MU is at 2HD and about to go to 2+1 in 2,000 more XP, and the Cleric rides on 4 as well. And it gets wider from there. Yes, a MU at Necromancer comes in with 7 HD, but it takes 200,000 XP to get there, while the FM gets that amount as a Champion at 64,000XP.

I discovered this while doing my Thief variant. I was going to make their HP higher, but doing it BTB from Greyhawk with the XP rate they had and effectively MU HD along the way, they gained HP at a rate just behind the FM. They just gained levels more quickly, so had smaller awards per 1,000XP.

Side note: with your method a MU at level 3 is avg 7.5hp and with the BTB method is 8 hp.

I assume that the change is an attempt to keep everyone using d6 rather than the Greyhawk variant of d8 for fighters, d6 for clerics, d4 for MU....

I'm guessing that Zulgyan is proposing a system sort of like Greyhawk where each level gains another HD (with his +/- alteration) instead of the progression in Men & Magic.

It's really only the first 4 levels that the Cleric is close to the FM, after that the Cleric really slows down.

The concern I'd have is with your HP inflation you've created versus the monsters which are not changing. Things are a close in the first few levels, but in levels 5-8 you've created a nearly 2HD inflation for fighters and about 1HD inflation for both MU and Clerics. HD, not HP. This will make things, on average, easier for your parties. Which can be dealt with as long as you're aware of it.

9hp is over 2.5HD difference. Avg hp of 1HD is 3.5. This is like giving that fighter 12+3HD at level 10 instead of 10+1, while 10HD creatures will still be 10HD. That's a 20% advantage.

edit: Which again, you can deal with, as long as you're aware of the inflation. Instead of throwing 10HD monsters, you're going to want to throw 11HD and maybe 12HD monsters

Alternatives:

You might give fighters +1 at the levels (2,3,4) at which they would otherwise match cleric-level HD; clerics gain levels more rapidly.

In AD&D, fighters have an average +1 per HD advantage over monsters. Giving them a much lesser advantage (even with the boost at those levels) in D&D doesn't seem a big problem to me. The monsters still score hits more often!

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Greyhawkesque:

Using d4 or d6-1 per level boosts average MU HP (more if d6-1 has a minimum of 1 per die). That peaks at +3.5 for levels 6 and 7. From Wizard on, it leaves them with less (-1.5 through level 14, less a pip from then on).

The approach boosts fighters and MUs while leaving the cleric behind.

If you're producing the same average as with Supplement I, it makes sense from one view to give monsters the same boost. From another view, maybe you want to shake up that balance. It's your game!

Is this correct?

1d6+1 save average as 1d8 -> 4,5
1d6 save average as 1d6 -> 3,5
1d6-1 save average as 1d4 -> 2,5

Much of AD&D is Greyhawk material revised. I've long thought that the revisions were the product of lessons learned from lots of actual use in play.

The boosts in damage (e.g., d8 for a sword, multiple attacks for many monsters) are pretty much the same in supplemented D&D and AD&D. The latter goes further in strengthening player-characters.

So, if you want to shift things more in the AD&D direction then I think you're just following the lead of the game's designer.

Supp. I may have gone the other way on average, at least at low levels. Magic-users IME became much more "old or bold, but not old and bold," and the new thief class was in the same boat.

On the other hand, Swords & Spells significantly weakened monsters -- and they lost more ground in AD&D.

I think some monsters got significantly beefed up in 2E. My initial impression of 3E was that monsters were much tougher -- but then I saw how "ramped up" everything was. 4E might take the trend to a whole new level, but one DM reported that his first two games were both TPKs.

My thread became a 4E thread *sight*

Sorry!

FWIW, here's the thread at K&K Alehouse about the 4E runs.

Just joking! no problem



Yes, it can be zero. Because all hit dice is rolled each level. So, for example, if you go level 3 and you roll 4, 6 and 1, you then substract 3. And the result is like having rolled 3+5+0.