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Post by bestialwarlust on Feb 17, 2013 18:29:45 GMT -6
So for my upcoming game I'm working on emphasizing the abstract nature of HP. Stressing more that they represent a combination of luck, endurance minor bumps and bruises, etc..
And that when you hit 0 that's the mortal wound, the time when your luck or whatever has run out and your opponent managed to get his strike in.
To do this I was going to try one of the following. As I don't like the slow healing rate when the HP aren't supposed to represent that many real wounds.
1. Give the usual bind wounds ability and increased overnight healing
2. After a 1 turn rest, with appropriate surprise times increase allow a return of 1/2 the characters hitpoints.
3. After the 1 turn of rest as above the player re rolls his HP to really emphasize the abstract nature.
I'm really interested in the opinions of the board here. Number 3 is one I'm leaning to. The only thing I'm wondering is cleric healing. I like the idea that it means a cleric for healing won't be a must. But my though is how would it affect healing magic.
The idea I have is once the character re rolls the clerics heal spells can still restore some HP as per the rules as long as the character isn't at maximum.
Now to expand in my game when a character gains a level they re roll thier HD and if the amount is greater than what they have they take that total otherwise thier total doesn't change.
Thoughts?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2013 19:17:45 GMT -6
I think that's good - I dislike the depiction of clerics as 'healing machines'. They should be more like paladins. So I support making magical healing unimportant.
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Post by kesher on Feb 17, 2013 19:20:45 GMT -6
Sounds good to me--the slow healing time never asked to dovetail with the way HP were described.
Instead of just resting, you could always require a swig from the ole' wine skin...
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Post by cooper on Feb 17, 2013 19:35:54 GMT -6
The fatigue rules from CHAINMAIL are included in 0d&d but they are hidden in the exploration rules which state that after 5 turns of movement the group must rest for 1 turn (CM pg. 11). Since HP can indeed represent "fatigue" I would like to see the "work day" clearly spelled out.
Assuming 6 hours of dungeon exploration.
1) After every 5 turns of exploration, during the 1 turn of rest players can recover 1 hit point.
2) On the 18th turn (three hours of exploration or the mid-point of the days exploration) parties can opt to rest for one full hour instead of 10 minutes, during which time mu and clerics can re-memorize as many spells as can be memorized in one hour and assuming they have their spell book. (15 min per spell, per spell level) and 1 hp per hit dice they posses.
example: during the hour of rest and assuming no encounters, a Warlock could recover four 1st level spells, or two 2nd level spells, or one 3rd level spell and one 1st level spell, or at most a single 4th level spell in addition to 5 hit points (an 8th level fighter during this time would recover 8 hit points).
3) After this, only two more hours (12 turns) of exploration are possible and then camp must be made (either in the dungeon, or outside), or the party risks fatigue (-2 AC -2 Thac0, -3 to movement speed)
Total adventuring time: 6 hours. 5 short rests (10 min) and 1 long rest (1 hour).
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Post by kesher on Feb 17, 2013 21:42:18 GMT -6
Very nice, Coop!
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Post by bestialwarlust on Feb 17, 2013 21:43:13 GMT -6
The fatigue rules from CHAINMAIL are included in 0d&d but they are hidden in the exploration rules which state that after 5 turns of movement the group must rest for 1 turn (CM pg. 11). Since HP can indeed represent "fatigue" I would like to see the "work day" clearly spelled out. Assuming 6 hours of dungeon exploration. 1) After every 5 turns of exploration, during the 1 turn of rest players can recover 1 hit point. 2) On the 18th turn (three hours of exploration or the mid-point of the days exploration) parties can opt to rest for one full hour instead of 10 minutes, during which time mu and clerics can re-memorize as many spells as can be memorized in one hour and assuming they have their spell book. (15 min per spell, per spell level) and 1 hp per hit dice they posses. example: during the hour of rest and assuming no encounters, a Warlock could recover four 1st level spells, or two 2nd level spells, or one 3rd level spell and one 1st level spell, or at most a single 4th level spell in addition to 5 hit points (an 8th level fighter during this time would recover 8 hit points). 3) After this, only two more hours (12 turns) of exploration are possible and then camp must be made (either in the dungeon, or outside), or the party risks fatigue (-2 AC -2 Thac0, -3 to movement speed) Total adventuring time: 6 hours. 5 short rests (10 min) and 1 long rest (1 hour). That's a real good one I would never have figured out. Thanks!
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Post by aher on Feb 17, 2013 22:37:39 GMT -6
... I dislike the depiction of clerics as 'healing machines'. They should be more like paladins. ... Here are some possible solutions: #1 Hirelings. Nobody wants to play the role of a Medieval alchemist, chirurgeon, barber, læce, monk, or witch. They want to be out in the vanguard, where the action is. Not back at camp, waiting to heal the wounded. So my first suggestion is that your players hire a medical professional, just like they would pay other hirelings, like smiths to repair armor & weapons; cooks; sappers to dig trenches, disarm traps, and build fortifications; a quartermater for provisioning; and servants/slaves/prisoners to forage for food, dig latrines, and remove lice and other pests. Here's some typical jobs these medical hirelings might perform: - alchemist - prepare toxins and antidotes
- barber - bloodletting to keep the four humours in harmony; hair and beard trimming; pull teeth
- chirurgeon - set broken bones; remove arrow heads; cauterize wounds.
- læce - stitch lacerations; apply leeches; apply balms.
- monk - prayer and ritual (since disease is caused by God as punishment for sin or through demonic possession); and some herbal medicine
- witch - herbal medicine
#2 Prevention is better than cure. Things that will "toughen-up" PCs and help prevent serious injuries: - Some boxers actually soak their faces in pickle brine, to give themselves "thick skin," literally. This reduces damage from facial cuts.
- Exercise. Workouts. Training... While MUs study their spell books, and Clerics pray to receive their spells, Fighters should be building their bodies and sharpening their weapon skills. Exercise will help prevent Delayed onset muscle soreness after a melee.
#3 Get well soon. Natural healing takes a really long time. Here is a nifty chart (excerpted from here): And here is a list of things that will speed your PCs recovery, besides Cleric spells and healing potions. You might consider HP recovery bonuses for doing these things. Or penalties for not doing these things. - Ice, initially, to reduce inflammation, reduce bleeding via vascular contraction, and help clotting.
- Then heat later.
- Tiger balm
- Hot spring sauna
- Epsom salt bath
- Sleep
- Nutrition
- Hydration
- Carbohydrates
- Electrolytes, e.g., some boxers drink pickle brine
#4 Pickling brine. I already mentioned this as a source of electrolytes and a way to toughen the skin. Pickling will preserve your PCs food and help keep them healthy. Furthermore, pickling brine used to contain alum, which is a powerful coagulant. Use it to stop bleeding. Your PCs can also use alum as a flame retardant--soak clothes, paper or wood in a solution of alum, and they won't catch fire! They can use alum powder to smother an oil fire. Your PCs need alum!!! However, overexposure to it will cause brain damage.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2013 22:59:55 GMT -6
Interesting suggestions aher. I also utilize an alchemist class, so that helps.
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Post by waysoftheearth on Feb 18, 2013 3:49:47 GMT -6
There was a discussing of non-magical healing just now over here where I suggested that: . The one turn of rest required in every six turns of exploration revives 1-6 hit points. If you don't rest, you don't recover! and that: . An uninterrupted night of bed rest (at an inn, for example) restores all temporary damage, allowing player to re-roll all hit dice. Which are pretty similar enough to the OP's options 1 and 2. FWIW -- I've never much liked the notion that it's the cleric's (or clerics') responsibility to keep the party's hp topped up. It's pretty bland "adventuring" to have to hang back and mop up after the "real action" has played out. On the other hand, clerics require so few XP, that maybe that is their lot in life? But like the other posters, I prefer the templar or paladin type clerics, and these are often depicted as sacrificing some of the classic cleric's healing potential for combat readiness. I'd also add to Cooper's post that part of the exploration week is given in vol 3, which says: (U&WA p17). Thus, players must rest typically rest 1 turn in 6, and also 1 day in 7. The popular history and literature typically has it that medieval sorts worked sunup to sundown, so it's a reasonable assumption (I think) that PCs would operate 12 hours per day too. Perhaps fewer in winter and more in summer if you want to get tricky. Or, depending upon your setting, you might rule that the campaigning season is limited to the summer months only...? But if we do assume, for the sake of argument, a 12 hour day then we might allow an hour for dawn and an hour for dusk, and thus 10 hours of potential adventuring. That gives us 50 turns of exploration and 10 turns of rest per day. If you prefer to set aside a full hour for the noon-break rather than just the 10 minutes, then our day comprises 15 turns of rest and 45 turns of exploration.
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Post by llenlleawg on Feb 18, 2013 7:09:27 GMT -6
If it's not heresy to borrow from more recent iterations of the game (as well as options in the current WotC playtest), you could mark a difference between healing when above or below "bloodied" (i.e. half of total hit points). On the more generous side, one could heal back up to maximum after a 1 turn rest if over bloodied. If at bloodied or under, then either (a) a one turn rest would heal up to the bloodied score, but no more, or (b) no healing from a one-turn rest once at bloodied, using the normal rules for healing until the bloodied score is reached (after which one can heal up to maximum).
This alters the resource management aspect, of course, but it certainly minimizes the need of the cleric as a healer, or of healing magic in general, except to heal those under half their hit points (i.e. those who are "bloodied"). However, it also makes being significantly wounded a warning to return to safety, unless healing magic is available. It also preserves the abstract nature of hit points which are never just luck or just physical condition, but some mix of both. It's also relatively easy to apply mechanically.
Obviously, one could use this basic idea to provide for a less generous amount of healing from rest (e.g. one hit point per turn of rest, one hit point/level per turn of rest, etc.), but I think the idea is sound enough for those looking to extend the adventuring day without recourse to healing magic.
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Post by geoffrey on Feb 18, 2013 11:13:28 GMT -6
I've experimented with this:
As long as you have at least 1 hit point remaining, you regain ALL your hit points after a full night's (i. e., at least 8 hours) rest. This is because you were never really hurt beyond a few minor cuts and bruises.
If you are reduced to 0 to -9 hit points, you are unconscious and wounded pretty badly. Thereafter you regain only 1 hp per full day (i. e., 24 hours) of rest until you reach 1 hit point. Then see above.
If you are reduced to -10 or fewer hit points, you are dead.
With this set-up, healing spells tend to be used only on those with negative hit points. This makes their use quite a bit rarer.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2013 12:20:09 GMT -6
What I do in Niflheim is divide hit points into hp and fp - fatigue points. Hp represent serious injury and are therefore equal to 1d6 + character level + Con bonus. Fp represent fatigue and are equal to Con score - 1d6. Fp, of course, are recovered much faster than hp. Moreover, if a character makes a 'defense roll' when hit, he can turn any physical blow into 1 point of fp damage.
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Post by TheObligatorySQL on Feb 18, 2013 16:58:31 GMT -6
The concept of hit points representing cuts and bruises until a certain point is reached is something they're emphasizing with D&D Next. They have it so that when a creature reaches half of their hit point total, fatigue begins setting in and their ability to reduce the severity of damage lessens, resulting in the damage becoming more severe. The killing blow happens then the damage reduces the target to 0 hit points of lower.
I had an idea I had, but never implemented or tested, was that your character's physical health is equal to the number of hit dice they have plus any bonus hit points from Constitution. When the party spends a turn resting, they can recover their stamina, regaining 1d6 hit points.
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zeraser
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Post by zeraser on Feb 18, 2013 17:01:07 GMT -6
Like geoffrey, I allow characters to regain all HP after an overnight rest; however, rather than fall into negative HP, characters who cross the 0 HP threshold roll a d6 to determine their fate: 1-2 is immediate death; 3-4 is a serious injury that will kill within a short time unless medical attention is provided; 5-6 is unconsciousness from which they can be easily roused by an ally. No magical healing is available. (I've never tested this system with high-level characters, though - it might be a total disaster.)
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idrahil
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The Lighter The Rules, The Better The Game!
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Post by idrahil on Feb 18, 2013 17:51:18 GMT -6
Hello all, I had a similar issue in my new campaign. My thing is that I like abstract nature of hit points and I like d&d being deadly. But, instead of save or die poison, I am moving to save or damage to HP poison. That way, lower levels still die from poison. But I also like magical healing from spells, scrolls and potions......but also don't like clerics being a medic. (which is why I want to add herb lore and more potions). Resting for HP seems like a good idea but then it messes with my idea that potions and magic spells are mending the body...then again, Ways posted a link to LOTR healing from the novels and I had forgotten how much the spirit's health mattered in those books. Maybe HP is an abstract representation of health, injuries and spirit. In that case, I don't like such low HPs to start. I look forward to this conversation continuing
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2013 20:03:21 GMT -6
I agree, hp should remain relatively constant (and use a house-rule to that effect). What should change is the ability to mitigate damage. So, you might want to give hp of 2d6+Con bonus+1/level for fighters/clerics, 1d6+Con bonus+1/level for mu-s, or something like that, but give a +1 AC bonus per 2 levels (and eliminate magic armor).
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idrahil
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Post by idrahil on Feb 18, 2013 21:10:32 GMT -6
I had thought about eliminating magic armor as far as armor that effect AC or enemies rolls. Instead, have armor that does something. (Save bonus vs fire, + to STR, etc)
But I do really like Magic Shields.
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Post by runequester on Feb 18, 2013 21:45:35 GMT -6
For a modern day occult OSR game I've been slowly working on, I had the idea of everyone regaining a hit point automatically if you survive a battle, as you regain your composure and brush off the dirt.
I've thought about borrowing from WFRP and letting 0 hit points be "when hte real hurt starts". Have a big injury table. Any blow below 0 is a roll on that table, which can result in vairous bad things, or you're dead.
Injuries would be pretty vague, but have a number of Injury points, which heal like normal D&D hit points.
Of course, for the true "old school" feel, the D6 roll suggested upthread is great too (dead/injured/stunned)
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Post by tetramorph on Oct 21, 2017 15:42:16 GMT -6
I've been working on a summary and condensing of the rules. As I thought about HD and HP and as I prepared for a session introducing some kid's to D&D for the first time I was thinking about philotomy 's point about HP being abstract. So I thought I would rez this thread. I almost wish they had been named them "luck points." They are called "hit points," so folks, even well intentioned folks that have read their Philotomy's Musings like good girls and boys, still fall into the trap of thinking about them as though they were about literal physical hits. But if they are "luck points," then it is more like "having luck on your side," or "running out of luck," with the final blow being the one that actually draws blood. This helped me with the session I ran with some buddy's and their kids today. When their level one characters failed to successfully attack (I no longer say "failed to hit," I don't think that is the point) I didn't have to say "you missed." I said "your dagger glances off the tough scaled hide." I wanted them to get the feel that they were hitting the thing, it was just so tough that luck was on its side. Anyways. It also makes some sense of hit point restoration: it isn't all about literal, physical healing. It is about luck returning. Feeling up, rather than down on your luck. This makes healing potions not just about physical, but also about, I don't know, for lack of a better term "psychological" healing. You just start feeling a lot better. You know, a little, invincible! Fight on!
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Post by hamurai on Oct 22, 2017 6:27:48 GMT -6
I've always argued that HP are a combination of physical and mental endurance and that's why I prefer using the d6 HD for all classes. What the fighting-man has in physical endurance, the magic-user has in mental endurance. That, plus the luck you mention, is how I describe HP to my players.
Losing HP can mean you have to dodge real hard and strain yourself, or the axe may have missed you but the shock was so intense, you lose HP. Or maybe the gods intervened and now your "luck" is lower than before.
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Post by Scott Anderson on Oct 22, 2017 12:26:32 GMT -6
No one can say for sure what a hit point is. It is an abstract scale with "completely unharmed" at one end and "dead" or "nearly dead" at the other.
Furthermore, hit points only exist for game entities which interact with the PCs. A group of orcs you never fight don't have hit points. They don't need them.
It's just too abstract a system to assign any one narrative to any particular change in hit points.
I do offer "bandages" which do three things. 1) binding wounds after combat restores 1 hit. 2) fresh bandages overnight restores 1 additional hit. 3) bandages will stop bleeding effects like a sword of wounding should you use them.
Additionally if someone plays an instrument, listening to an hour or more of pleasant music overnight will heal 1 additional hit, but also require an additional wandering monster check.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2017 11:42:23 GMT -6
Actually, it is possible to say what a hit point is.
It is an abstract resource that it is important to conserve.
That is why, if two fighters both have 40 hit points, and one takes 4 points of damage and the other takes 24 points of damage, the one who took more damage must pay a higher cost to restore the important resource.
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Post by Stormcrow on Nov 3, 2017 12:00:16 GMT -6
There's a simpler way to stress the abstract nature of hit points.
Stop calling them hit points.
Excise the words hit, miss, damage, and heal from the game's mechanics, because these make people think that every hit is a swung sword that chops into someone, that damage is physical, bloody damage to the body, and that healing is bodily recuperation and open wounds being closed.
I dunno what you want to call them instead. If the term weren't already loaded from other games, I'd say call them fate points, and a good attack makes you lose fate points. A cleric might use magic to restore those fate points. Maybe the game world's inhabitants are obsessed with keeping their destinies at bay.
Or just call them life points. As long as you have 'em, you are alive.
Or call them doom points, and instead of taking away from your points, a successful attack on you adds doom points until you reach your destiny, which equals what we now call "full hit points," and then you die and go to your destiny.
Even better, don't call them points at all. Represent them as a clock counting down to your doom, or even a game of hangman.
The point is, all the hand-wringing people go through trying to convince each other what hit points philosophically represent is kind of silly, when they're really just working from the wrong image because of the specific words the authors of the game used.
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Post by Scott Anderson on Nov 3, 2017 12:05:56 GMT -6
Actually, it is possible to say what a hit point is. It is an abstract resource that it is important to conserve. That is why, if two fighters both have 40 hit points, and one takes 4 points of damage and the other takes 24 points of damage, the one who took more damage must pay a higher cost to restore the important resource. We are in agreement.
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Post by Starbeard on Nov 3, 2017 12:28:28 GMT -6
There's a simpler way to stress the abstract nature of hit points. Stop calling them hit points. Excise the words hit, miss, damage, and heal from the game's mechanics, because these make people think that every hit is a swung sword that chops into someone, that damage is physical, bloody damage to the body, and that healing is bodily recuperation and open wounds being closed. I dunno what you want to call them instead. If the term weren't already loaded from other games, I'd say call them fate points, and a good attack makes you lose fate points. A cleric might use magic to restore those fate points. Maybe the game world's inhabitants are obsessed with keeping their destinies at bay. Or just call them life points. As long as you have 'em, you are alive. Or call them doom points, and instead of taking away from your points, a successful attack on you adds doom points until you reach your destiny, which equals what we now call "full hit points," and then you die and go to your destiny. Even better, don't call them points at all. Represent them as a clock counting down to your doom, or even a game of hangman. The point is, all the hand-wringing people go through trying to convince each other what hit points philosophically represent is kind of silly, when they're really just working from the wrong image because of the specific words the authors of the game used. I vote calling them "luck." That way just about anything can take or give points back without making it seem strange. When your luck runs out… well, your luck runs out.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2017 14:02:22 GMT -6
Here's a somewhat longer exposition on the subject I made elsewhere:
D&D is full of goofy crap. I suggest you learn to let go and embrace the goofy. ("I didn't say she was crazy, Mickey, I said she was f***ing Goofy.")
There is a ton of crap in D&D that makes no sense at all. For instance, in OD&D, doors in the dungeon automatically open for monsters, and monsters can see in the dark. If monsters get hired by a PC, it explicitly says they lose those abilities. That makes absolutely no f******* sense in any kind of "world simulation" view.
HOWEVER, if you look on D&D as "Explore the Fun House from Hell, groan at the deliberately bad puns, curse at the referee for the d**n deathtraps, and collect loot," it makes total sense. AS A GAME RULE.
D&D is a resource management game. (Personally, I suspect all wargames are resource management games, but I'm not going into that now.)
D&D is about managing resources. Hit Points are the most important, most vital resource of all. That's why XP for Gold so that if you steal the money you get full XP -- because you get the goodies, but do not deplete your scarcest resource.
In CHAINMAIL a Hero fights like four men and takes four hits to kill. Levels and hit dice clearly derive from this.
Hit points act the way they do because they are a vital resource, and there must be a cost for losing a resource. Say two 8th level fighters, each with 42 HP, go into the dungeon. When they return, Abelard has 38 hit points left, but Bertram is down to 16, having taken 26 points of damage.
Bertram has lost a greater share of the vital resource called hit points, therefore Bertram must pay a greater cost than Abelard to restore that resource.
That's why, even though "hit points" are mostly fatigue and other et ceterae, Bertram doesn't just sleep for a day and a half and bounce up out of bed ready to go.
IF YOU LOSE MORE OF A RESOURCE YOU HAVE TO PAY A GREATER COST.
That's why HP work the way they do. It's all about managing resources and paying a cost for lost resources.
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Post by Scott Anderson on Nov 3, 2017 19:40:53 GMT -6
We are again in agreement.
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Post by Starbeard on Nov 4, 2017 3:30:17 GMT -6
Yep. Especially that point about all wargames (at least the good ones) being about resource management at heart. Aside from sticks and stones, the resources of combat are blood, sweat and tears. Whether you go about it quickly or slowly, from the flank or on top of a hill, your goal is to make the other side spend those up without you spending yours. What makes D&D so interesting and adaptable is that there's no attempt to hide the fact that everything in the game is a resource.
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Post by tetramorph on Nov 6, 2017 15:10:53 GMT -6
Yes, Stormcrow, that is why I suggested "luck point," above.
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Post by hamurai on Nov 6, 2017 23:22:52 GMT -6
Yes, Stormcrow , that is why I suggested "luck point," above. In Barons of Braunstein it's called exactly that, as you can see on the character sheet:
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