Michael Mornard -------------------------- Played in the original Blackmoor, Greyhawk, and EPT Campaigns "Gronan of Simmerya" aka "Old Geezer" aka "LORD Grumpy"
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Re: Sleep @ 1st level « Reply #3 on Jun 4, 2012, 10:13am »
Sleep has long been considered to be overpowered compared to other level-1 spells. I'm not sure it's a problem, actually, but since many think so it's worth discussion.
One could make the saving throw easier. Add the defender's level to their die roll to save vs sleep, that kind of thing.
Marv / Finarvyn DCC playtester (2011) C&C playtester (2003) I'm partly responsible for the S&W WhiteBox Builder of the TrollBridge Master of Mutants; MA since 1976 OD&D Player since 1975
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Joined: Mar 2009 Gender: Male Posts: 1,596 Location: Schenectady Karma: 73
Re: Sleep @ 1st level « Reply #5 on Jun 4, 2012, 11:25am »
Yes. Here how it is handled in CoZ.
"It takes 2-8 minutes to take full effect on each creature. Each Creature affected by the spell gets a Saving Throw to resist the effect. "
That rule derives from the 2-8 turns listed in Holmes, and based on the idea that the spell causes those effected to become sleepy more or less naturally doze off. There is nothing in the OD&D description suggesting the spell is instantaneous or, for that matter that it is anything other than a nap from which those affected could be easily awakened.
Re: Sleep @ 1st level « Reply #6 on Jun 4, 2012, 11:27am »
Fin, Sleep doesn't allow a saving throw (not mentioned at all in the 3LBBs, but clarified in Greyhawk), so allowing one would be the first step if you wanted to tone it down, I think.
Another would be to have it affect a smaller number of creatures. You could use 1d8/1d6/1 instead of the usual 2d8/2d6/1d6/1.
Sleep has long been considered to be overpowered compared to other level-1 spells. I'm not sure it's a problem, actually, but since many think so it's worth discussion.
One could make the saving throw easier. Add the defender's level to their die roll to save vs sleep, that kind of thing.
I agree it isn't a problem, given how magic works btb.
Regarding the saving throw, is there one? I've always read "... the spell always affects up to the number of creatures determined by the dice ..." to mean there was no save.
Edit to add: I see Morandir beat me to the punch. Carry on!
Joined: Nov 2010 Gender: Male Posts: 171 Karma: 16
Re: Sleep @ 1st level « Reply #9 on Jun 4, 2012, 1:13pm »
I don't have a ton of experience, but I've found that it isn't a problem in play, even though it looks out of whack when you're reading the description. The MU can really only knock out one monster/monster group, then still has to sneak back out of the dungeon with 3 hp. He may have owned a group of orcs, but then he might get killed by a lone stirge!
I also like the idea of the MUs small amount of magic being pretty kick-butt. I like a group of armored fighting men still being kinda scared of the skinny, weird guy in the robe. "You never know what will happen when he starts his mumbling..."
Charm Person, according to the LBBs is pretty badass, as well.
Joined: Sept 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 1,217 Location: Melbourne, Australia Karma: 195
Re: Sleep @ 1st level « Reply #10 on Jun 4, 2012, 5:50pm »
I don't have a problem with sleep. I think of it as a double-edged sword because the magic must always affect the indicated number of creatures.
I read this as meaning it affects friend and foe alike, starting with those nearest the target creature and working its way outward. It could possibly even affect the magic-user himself if he is not careful.
In terms of limiting the power of the spell, how about giving it a relatively short range? How about making it a fitful, light sleep rather than a deep slumber? The noise of a melee, or shouting comrades (for example) would possibly wake those affected in each subsequent round.
Re: Sleep @ 1st level « Reply #12 on Jun 5, 2012, 6:40am »
The lack of a save for Sleep has always bothered me. It's a great "Get out of Jail Free" card for low-level parties, but rarely used in return by DMs against them, probably because of the high chance of an instant TPK.
Based on the Vol 3 Wandering Monster Tables, a 1st level dungeon should have encounters with Conjurers (Lvl 3 M-U), Theurgists (Lvl 4), Thaumaturguists (Lvl 5), Magicians (Lvl 6) and Enchanters (Lvl 7) at frequencies of 3.2%, 3.2%, 1.6%, 1.6% and 1.6%, respectively. That's more than 11% of wandering monster encounters. Note these are encounters with a group of multiple spell casters. Given the usefulness of Sleep against the other wandering monsters on that level, one would expect at the minimum that at least one M-U per group would have memorized it. Sleep should affect 2-16 1st level characters. All it takes is surprise or an initiative win by the M-Us, plus a good roll on 2d8, to put most or all of a 1st level party to sleep instantly without save.
"Story tellers are always careful to point out that the reputed dungeons lie in close proximity to the foundations of an older, pre-human city, to the graveyard, and to the sea.” - Holmes rulebook
Zenopus Archives - Holmes Basic D&D - website & blog
Joined: Sept 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 1,217 Location: Melbourne, Australia Karma: 195
Re: Sleep @ 1st level « Reply #13 on Jun 5, 2012, 7:21am »
Men and Magic does not state a duration for sleep, and nor does Greyhawk (but GH does state explicitly that no saving throw is allowed).
The referee of an OD&D game is therefore free to rule the duration at 1 combat round if desired, or 1-6 rounds, a turn, a day, or whatever else he considers "right".
In later editions Holmes states the duration of sleep as 4-16 turns, but immediately after restates it as 2-8 turns. These "turns" seem likely to mean "combat turns" (aka "melee rounds") as the modern terminology hadn't evolved yet.
FWIW -- the AD&D PHB subsequently set the duration of sleep at 5 round per caster level.
So it seems if you want a "balanced" OD&D sleep spell, you could set an appropriately brief duration and see how it goes...
Joined: Jul 2011 Gender: Male Posts: 478 Karma: 37
Re: Sleep @ 1st level « Reply #14 on Jun 5, 2012, 10:14am »
I'm very, very nervous about changing the Sleep spell. Without it, a dozen orcs have a strong chance of a TPK against your typical first level adventuring party.
Also, whaddaya mean referees don't use it against players? Like fun! There's a reason that "Men" are the most dreaded monster encounter there is.
Michael Mornard -------------------------- Played in the original Blackmoor, Greyhawk, and EPT Campaigns "Gronan of Simmerya" aka "Old Geezer" aka "LORD Grumpy"
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