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Post by ffilz on Feb 8, 2008 17:32:24 GMT -6
I'm closing in on finalizing my rule-set for my upcomming OD&D mega-dungeon campaign. One thing that I am still very up in the air about is ability score bonuses.
Part of me wants more bonuses, another part wonders if sticking with Men & Magic bonuses, perhaps with a minor expansion would be better.
On the one hand, a proliferation of bonuses will tend to make players want better stats. On the other hand, it's nice to have some differentiation.
Also, it's nice to make those attributes mean something more than just the occaisional ability score roll. But perhaps the answer is to proliferate ability score rolls. Make the players make dexterity and strength rolls. Use intelligence and wisdom checks.
So perhaps the answer is to go with Men & Magic bonuses, perhaps adding a +1 damage for 15+ strength.
Any thoughts? I'm open to convincing arguments towards any view point (except I don't plan to go with Greyhawk style bonuses, especially not percentile strength).
Frank
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Post by Zulgyan on Feb 8, 2008 17:40:16 GMT -6
This have been my last ideas, but I may change them.
Strength 15 or more: +1 to damage rolls if you are a man or dwarven fighting-man
Wisdom 15 or more: +1 to saving throws against spells that affect your will power
Constitution 15 or more: Add +1 to each hit die due to toughness.
Constitution 6 or Less: Minus 1 from each hit die (minimum score of 1 on any die)
Dexterity 15 or more: Opponents subtract -1 to hit when attacking this agile character; +1 to saving throws against attacks that can be reasonably dodged (non of the two benefits apply to dwarves)
Dexterity above 12: Fire any missile at +1; fight with 2 weapons effectively (does not apply to dwarves, clerics and non-elven magic-users)
Dexterity under 9: Fire any missile at -1
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Post by Wothbora on Feb 9, 2008 10:05:31 GMT -6
The following is from Robert Fisher's web page that describes how Gary Gygax played an OD&D session back in 2005. Oddly enough, the following quote is a quote of a quote of a quote.
It shows just how much you can homebrew OD&D to create a customized campaign. I personally like just about all of the homebrew, but still am a stickler for attributes being rolled 3d6 (in a row). Yeah, I guess that makes me a Mean DM, but in the real world I'm pretty much of a wimp and my strength, dexterity and constitution would not gain me any bonuses. I might have a good intelligence, but I'd still want to be a fighter. ;D
There should be something in here for just about campaign.
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Post by kesher on Feb 9, 2008 21:23:15 GMT -6
Hey Frank.
I think you're right to stay away from a proliferation of bonuses. I remember even back when playing B/X, people would get anxious for that +2, let alone +3, "to hit and damage".
Personally, I'd run with your idea of more use of ability checks. In my game, normal human stats actually only range from 2-12, so it still gives an edge to those "heroic" stats or 13 and higher. Also, if you want to give fighters some more options for damage, you could use Philotomy's idea of only fighters being able to use two-handed weapons, which allow them to roll two dice for damage and pick the best score. I'd also then limit that to fighters with a Str of 15 or more, and allow dwarven axes/hammers to be counted as two-handed. P. also has the same idea, damage-wise, for using two weapons at once, with a Dex requirement of twelve or more. I'd limit that option to fighting-men as well, possibly just of the human or hobbit sort.
The only reason I shy away from Str damage bonuses is simply because ogres have a +1 damage bonus, and I always assume them to have 19 Str (hence the old gauntlets...) This is, admittedly, not a strong argument... In fact, I'll destroy it right now: give fighters a +1 to damage at Str 15 or above (which doesn't get counted if using the two-handed rules above), and give ogres a +2 or 3 on damage. That'd make those gauntlets even more worthwhile...
I also like EGG's rules for bonus spells for MUs and Clerics with their respective requisites at 15 or above. They deserve it.
Aaron
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Post by Zulgyan on Feb 9, 2008 21:31:48 GMT -6
I think they have +2 damage bonus IIRC.
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Post by dwayanu on Feb 10, 2008 8:56:42 GMT -6
I definitely think it best to keep most mods at the extremes (15+ or 16+). When I tried giving +1 to hit in melee for Strength 13+, nobody wanted to play a fighter without a bonus.
Giving bigger mods for scores of 17 or 18 (less than 2% of rolls) seems to work fine. I remember a character from Holmes Basic days who got +3 to Hit Points for Constitution 18. The rarity made it memorable, and the rate of PC mortality is what led to rolling up enough to get that one (which didn't last as long as another that started with half the HP)!
Personally, I give a Wisdom bonus/penalty to all saves: "the favor of the gods" (and an intuitive knack for making the right/wrong move). Constitution gives another mod to Poison saves.
I use a reaction-roll modifier from Charisma that starts closer to the range of average scores.
Very high/low Strength should IMO affect opening doors, although I would not give a Hobbit a bonus. A similar modifier to searching based on Intelligence or Wisdom may be meet.
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Post by kesher on Feb 10, 2008 13:36:38 GMT -6
Doh. You're right. In that case, I'd definitely go with the +1 at 15 and above.
Dwayanu, I like your "favor of the gods" idea; it actually starts to make Wis meaningful. Frank, another thought I had about ability checks is, if you really wanted to encourage them, you could take a page from Tunnels & Trolls and give a small xp reward for even trying a check--- maybe the difference between the ability score and 20, multiplied by any neg. modifiers? Something.
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Post by Zulgyan on Feb 10, 2008 13:50:18 GMT -6
With regards Strength, I only give +1 damage bonus for STR 15+ and only for the human and dwarf fighting men. No attack roll bonus, and the damage bonus is not enjoyed by other races.
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WSmith
Level 4 Theurgist
Where is the Great Svenny when we need him?
Posts: 138
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Post by WSmith on Feb 12, 2008 9:30:23 GMT -6
Make the static number itself more useful. Say "must have a STR of 15 to wield this weapon" or ...must have an INT of 16+ to use this scroll..." or even, "characters with a DEX of 13+ can automatically jump over the fire pit." This allows for some use of the ability score but avoids all the things that come with "bonuses" and "ability" checks."
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Post by Zulgyan on Feb 12, 2008 9:37:45 GMT -6
I also try to keep attribute checks at a minimum. They should be the last of things I rely on to solve any given situation. I usually make more use of HD and level. Rolling a number of die = to level. A high stat may give you an extra die for the roll. Anyway, again, I try not to rely on it, and not make the player's think that everything is solved by rolling.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2008 16:14:56 GMT -6
I guess I'm kind of a stickler myself. 3d6 in order, period. In regards to bonuses, I play an amalgam of both R.C. & OD&D, so I still stick with the R.C. bonus table. I do, however, like ability checks, & use them often.  |
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Post by ffilz on Feb 12, 2008 18:01:06 GMT -6
Trying to keep attribute checks to a minimum would definitely be counter to what I want to accomplish. If attribute checks are not used much, what makes the difference between a strength 10 fighter and a strength 12?
Some have suggested a damage bonus only for fighting men. The issue I have with this is that then strength is doubly useful for fighting men and mostly useless for other classes.
I want to make the strength 15, wisdom 13 character interesting to play as a cleric.
So I'm inclined to have a +1 damage bonus for 15 strength across the board.
Strength requirements for weapons is a nice idea, and some game systems have used it, but I think that adds too much niggly detail.
On the other hand, I do like the idea of automatic tasks for certain attributes. I might still allow a chance for those who don't have the requisite attribute.
Frank
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korgoth
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Posts: 323
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Post by korgoth on Feb 12, 2008 23:22:48 GMT -6
I'm a fan of "save vs. attributes", i.e. roll 1d20 under relevant stat. Not something I use all the time, but it's nice and simple when something comes up.
I was considering using a simple +1 bonus to the relevant roll for stats of 15 or greater (so +1 to hit and damage for high Str, +1 to missiles and surprise for high Dex, etc.). But as I was thinking about it, it might be fun to give +1 for 15-17, and a +2 for 18. There's something cool about giving a significant reward for a character who has attained the peak of human physical potential.
I'm currently playing a Fighter in a Classic game who has an 18 Str... his hit points are only average but he hits so often with such power that the whole group constantly cheers him on. He's memorable and fun just because he's such a slugger. 18s are rare enough that I suppose there's no harm in giving them an extra reward.
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Post by Zulgyan on Feb 13, 2008 8:51:24 GMT -6
Some have suggested a damage bonus only for fighting men. The issue I have with this is that then strength is doubly useful for fighting men and mostly useless for other classes. I want to make the strength 15, wisdom 13 character interesting to play as a cleric. So I'm inclined to have a +1 damage bonus for 15 strength across the board. That's a nice insight I had not considered. Good reasoning. |
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Post by Zulgyan on Feb 17, 2008 21:15:55 GMT -6
I'll be giving an extra 1d6 on the starting gold roll to characters with CHA 15 or higher.
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Stonegiant
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
100% in Liar
Posts: 240
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Post by Stonegiant on Feb 17, 2008 23:54:50 GMT -6
I'll be giving an extra 1d6 on the starting gold roll to characters with CHA 15 or higher. That an interesting twist |
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Post by foster1941 on Feb 18, 2008 14:00:10 GMT -6
I'm currently using the Vol. I adjustments for int, wis, con, dex, and cha. For strength I'm using the following (derived/simplified from Supplement I):
Any characters with str 6 or less: -1 to hit in melee, -1 to open doors
Any character with str 15+: +1 to open doors
Fighter or barbarian with str 13+: may use battle axe one-handed, +1 to hit in melee
Fighter or barbarian with str 15+: +1 damage in melee
This makes wisdom the poor-cousin stat, the only one that doesn't provide any sort of quantified in-game bonus or penalty (except to XP for clerics) but my intention is to mitigate this a bit (in a subjective manner at least) by making wisdom the de facto luck/idea/Good Stuff stat -- players with high wisdom characters receive more hints and advice with tricks and puzzles, more "are you sure you want to do that?" warnings when they're about to try something I think is dumb, etc.
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Stonegiant
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
100% in Liar
Posts: 240
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Post by Stonegiant on Feb 18, 2008 16:44:39 GMT -6
I have been allowing Clerics with a WIS of 15+ to get a +1 to Save vs. Magic (Spells, wands, and staves).
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Post by ffilz on Feb 18, 2008 23:13:41 GMT -6
The extra 1d6 on starting gold is nice for charisma. It doesn't have a long lasting effect, but will help the player until the hireling limits come into play.
I would like to see a bit more concrete use of intelligence than just languages, though perhaps those can be made effective use of.
Wisdom definitely needs some help, though using it as the "are you about to do something stupid?" or "do you need a hint?" attribute check makes it pretty valuable, but then, I see lots of opportunities for dexterity and strength checks, a few for constitution, and a few for charisma, so wisdom would still be a 2nd rate attribute for non-clerics. Also, if these checks are always wisdom, then when do you make intelligence checks?
Frank
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Post by Zulgyan on May 10, 2008 9:25:21 GMT -6
I'm toying around with this general modifiers. Still got to figure out where the bonus applies for each stat.
Score Modifiers
3-4...............-2
5-7...............-1
8-13..............No modifier
14-16.............+1
17-18.............+2
What do you guys think? Am I falling into the dark side of stat inflation? ;D
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busman
Level 6 Magician
Playing OD&D, once again. Since 2008!
Posts: 448
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Post by busman on May 10, 2008 11:27:46 GMT -6
What do you guys thinks? Am I falling into the dark side of stat inflation? ;D A little bit, but that's your prerogative. |
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Post by Zulgyan on May 10, 2008 13:21:56 GMT -6
What are the chances of rolling 17 or 18 on 3d6?
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Post by Zulgyan on May 10, 2008 18:49:06 GMT -6
1,851% |
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Post by trollman on May 12, 2008 9:00:31 GMT -6
I like the idea of ability scores having little to no "bonuses" (max of +1/-1).
I'm currently favoring no bonuses/penalties for ability scores. I prefer to use variable ability scores for ability checks and to guide roleplaying.
This way, the randomness of ability rolls is meaningful, but doesn't make characters awesome or unplayable.
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