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Post by irdaranger on Sept 30, 2009 12:30:45 GMT -6
I've been inspired by Swords & Wizardry's "one saving throw" mechanic (also in Searchers of the Unknown) to create a "skill system" for D&D (this also will "fix" the Thief). OK, this is part joke but it's also part serious. Your thoughts are appreciated.
As everyone knows, adventurers have mad skillz, son. Mad skillz. To model this truth I propose the Mad Skillz (MS) progression, to accompany the to-hit progression and the saving throw progression. Naturally Thieves will have the best Mad Skillz advancement, followed by Fighters and then Magic-Users and Clerics in tied-for-last place.
Rules that can be modified by the use of Mad Skillz follow, along with parenthetical explanations of the Thief skills they replace:
- Dex checks for difficult climbing situation (Climb Walls).
- Surprise (your enemies) (Move Silently, Hide in Shadows).
- Surprise (yourself) (Detect Noise, Ranger's ability).
- Detecting Traps & Doors (Find/Remove Traps & racial abilities)
Further, we can propose a few class abilities (but not too many).
- Thieves can roll under their Dex (modified by Mad Skillz) to pick a lock or pocket.
- Clerics can roll under their Wisdom (modified by Mad Skillz) to revive someone who "died" in the last 5 rounds (they were only mostly dead - and mostly dead is slightly alive).
- Magic-Users can roll under their Int (modified by Mad Skillz) to determine the nature of a magical trap, rune or device, or to temporarily stay the effect of a magical trap, rune or device (1d4 rounds).
- Fighters can roll under their Str (modified by Mad Skillz) to perform athletic stunts of heroic daring - flipping heavy tables onto onrushing guards, kicking the ogre-mage into the volcano, bursting out of a Kobold pile up (RAAAWR!), etc.
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Post by aldarron on Sept 30, 2009 12:48:06 GMT -6
Well, for my tastes, Madskilz strikes me as sounding like something modern, superheroish, surge healing, 9 life having, wonder characters would have. I'm a big fan of roll under ability score checks - in my opinion its what the scores are for in the first place, but until I see the progression chart you are proposing and how it would work in practice I'm feeling a bit lukewarm on the Madskilz idea.
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Post by tavis on Sept 30, 2009 14:14:03 GMT -6
Do you roll under on a d20?
I like the idea that adventurers have mad skillz - call me modern, but I want to say yes to everything players think of doing, right up until the point where I kill them horribly with the consequences of doing what they thought was a good idea - but I don't like the strong dependence on ability scores. I think the point of a class system is that being trained as a cleric is more important than one's inborn talents, and (depending on how the numbers shake out) it sounds like that wouldn't be reflected here.
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Post by irdaranger on Oct 1, 2009 11:55:41 GMT -6
Arrgh! What happened to my post?? Grrrr .... Well, for my tastes, Madskilz strikes me as sounding like something modern, superheroish, surge healing, 9 life having, wonder characters would have. Nah, man. Skillz are difficult but within the realm of human ability. Spiderman had Powers (see also, D&D 4E). David Beckam's got Mad Skillz. I'm a big fan of roll under ability score checks - in my opinion its what the scores are for in the first place, but until I see the progression chart you are proposing and how it would work in practice I'm feeling a bit lukewarm on the Madskilz idea. Right now I'm thinking it would start with 1st level characters having a +2 (Thief), +1 (Fighter) and +0 (Cleric, Magic-User). That would go up to +6, +4 and +3 (respectively) by 10th level or so. That's up to you. It depends on how much "random" you want in your game. The d20 will produce results that are all over the map, causing a lot of unpredictability. Using a 3d6 would normalize the curve around 9-12. I'd prefer the latter, but it's a matter of personal taste. I like your style. Yes and no. A Dex 17 Cleric would be very different from a Dex 5 Cleric under this system. The Dex 17 Cleric might even forgo wearing heavy armor all the time to make more use of his Mad Acrobatic & Dare Devil Skillz. No doubt the Chr 17 Elf would have all the village maidens swooning. That stuff makes stats matter more than classes. But presumably (the luck of the dice being as they are) that Dex 5 Cleric has some stats better than the Dex 17 guy, so no one's worse off - they're just different. It's a good way (IMO) to distinguish one character from another within the same class. Further, you can do things to make classes matter. Some Skillz could only be available to certain classes, like making Open Locks and Pick Pockets unique to Thieves. You could also grant class specific bonuses to make it much easier for a classed character to do something. For instance, say you wanted to make Turn Undead available to everyone of Lawful alignment but wanted to make sure Clerics were best at it. Just set it up as a Skill under the Wisdom, and give Clerics a class-based +4 bonus to the Skill rolls. The +4 bonus (combined with their presumable higher Wisdoms) would make the the TU masters. |
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Post by waysoftheearth on Oct 1, 2009 17:08:27 GMT -6
I'm using a similar idea in my game.
I have all PCs advance in combat, skill and magic as they gain experience levels. All three modifiers start out at 0 for everyone. All PCs gain +1 to one modifier at each level, with the pattern of advancement being determined by class. Fighters have the best combat-modifier. Thieves have the best skill-modifier. Magic-users have the best magic-modifier. Etc.
A fighter, for example, starts out at level 1 with combat +1, skill +0, magic +0. By level 10, he will have combat +5, skill +3, magic +2.
So far this system has served us very nicely. The players are also happy with the idea that they "get something" at each new level.
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Post by aldarron on Oct 1, 2009 19:05:04 GMT -6
Right now I'm thinking it would start with 1st level characters having a +2 (Thief), +1 (Fighter) and +0 (Cleric, Magic-User). That would go up to +6, +4 and +3 (respectively) by 10th level or so. Yeah, that's kinda the general super power thing I was thinking, the characters are getting Mad credit just for being whatever character they are. So your tenth level theif may have done nothing put pick locks and check traps, but he can decide to try tightrope walking and apply his Madskilz bonus of +6. I can see how that might reflect some pulp fictiony characters but it doesn't really make sense to me. Maybe if you figure out a way to restrict how and when the Madskilz would apply, I'd be more inclined to like it. |
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Post by waysoftheearth on Oct 1, 2009 19:14:26 GMT -6
So your tenth level theif may have done nothing put pick locks and check traps, but he can decide to try tightrope walking and apply his Madskilz bonus of +6. I can see how that might reflect some pulp fictiony characters but it doesn't really make sense to me. How is this any different to the 10th level fighter who has done nothing but swing a sword all his career, then one day picks up a flail and still applies his attack bonus of +whatever? Or to the 10th level wizard who has done nothing but sling spells all his years, and then one day has to stab something with a dagger for the very first time, yet has the +whatever attack bonus that 10th level wizards have? |
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Post by irdaranger on Oct 2, 2009 7:42:06 GMT -6
the characters are getting Mad credit just for being whatever character they are. So your tenth level theif may have done nothing put pick locks and check traps, but he can decide to try tightrope walking and apply his Madskilz bonus of +6. I can see how that might reflect some pulp fictiony characters but it doesn't really make sense to me. Maybe if you figure out a way to restrict how and when the Madskilz would apply, I'd be more inclined to like it. So, in other words, you want to replace the Class system with a Skill-based system where you only advance in skills you use during adventures? Yeah, I'm not gonna do that. This is D&D. |
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Post by aldarron on Oct 2, 2009 13:13:42 GMT -6
the characters are getting Mad credit just for being whatever character they are. So your tenth level theif may have done nothing put pick locks and check traps, but he can decide to try tightrope walking and apply his Madskilz bonus of +6. I can see how that might reflect some pulp fictiony characters but it doesn't really make sense to me. Maybe if you figure out a way to restrict how and when the Madskilz would apply, I'd be more inclined to like it. So, in other words, you want to replace the Class system with a Skill-based system where you only advance in skills you use during adventures? Yeah, I'm not gonna do that. This is D&D. uh, Madskilz isn't D&D last time I checked, and there are lots of skill system ideas even in this forum and in a many of the old school, D&D like games such as Empire of the Petal Throne, which predates Greyhawk, not to mention the class and ability skills that are already built in to D&D utself. But no matter, you are close to bingo with what I meant by restrictions on Madskills. I didn't mean to keep track of adventure activities like some kind of knack system (unless you want to do that), but rather the class appropriate role playing of characters, things that fit thier between adventure activities and training, general background and class specific skills - like read magic or languages and such. Maybe the thief player could convince me he has been training in tightrope walking, maybe not, but he couldn't convince me to give a whopping 6 point bonus when attempting to rustle cattle if the character is supposed to be from a tropical island where the biggest animal is a rooster or that he should swiftly scale a frozen waterfall if he spent all his life in the desert. He's a level 10 thief, not a level 10 jack of all trades. You mentioned some ways - interesting ideas too - the Madskil bonus could apply but not so much about when and where it wouldn't, and players will want to add it to everything the try if they can, so as I said, until I see more of how you intend to apply you Madskilz idea and in what way, if any, the bonuses would be restricted, I'm not loving the idea. |
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Post by irdaranger on Oct 2, 2009 15:08:47 GMT -6
You mentioned some ways - interesting ideas too - the Madskil bonus could apply but not so much about when and where it wouldn't, and players will want to add it to everything they try if they can Ah, I see what you're getting at. Yes, that is a fair point. I guess in my head I have a list of things I would consider adding this to, and nothing else. Before we move on though I should point out that tightrope-walking is absolutely on that list. Because it's awesome. I would say that MadSkillz modifier should be added to anything than an adventurer of that class ought to do very well. I realize that's sort of subjective and vague, but that's sort of the point. I don't want to make an explicit list like D&D 3E/4E did. If I were running a Shadowrun game with D&D rules, I'd allow MadSkillz to be added to computer hacking. In Star Wars it would be added to stunt flying space-fighters and tramp freighters. But in D&D it would be added to things that adventurers would do regularly in the process of wilderness exploration, dungeon delving, city adventurin', and all the stuff in between. Some examples might include fast-talking your way past palace guards, bluffing an orc warband you've got reinforcements coming right behind you, catching a falling idol made of crystal before it shatters on the floor, balance-walking across 10' poles over lava filled ravines, starting a camp fire in a rain storm, fashioning a battering ram from local materials, etc. etc. Things adventurers do, you know what I mean? On the other hand, I have in my head a list of Secondary Skills that are more like crafts or professions. Maybe I even use an explicit list of Secondary Skills from an EGG source, like the Castles & Crusades Yggsburgh supplement. Those would NOT get the MadSkillz bonus, which rules out cattle rustling (and carpentry). |
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Post by aldarron on Oct 3, 2009 12:56:28 GMT -6
mmm hmm. I'm still intrigued, and I do particularly like the idea of replacing the thief skills list with a more general mechanic that works in some fashion across all classes, and makes use of those neglected ability scores. So, if you work up a ruleset and progression table, I'd love to see it and if it looks like it won't result in overpowered characters I'd probably want to use it. Have an exalt anyway for some original thinking.
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Post by coffee on Oct 3, 2009 13:10:23 GMT -6
... Those would NOT get the MadSkillz bonus, which rules out cattle rustling (and carpentry). I know a guy in real life who has mad skills in carpentry (and is developing them in blacksmithing). But he is definitely not an adventurer, so I have to agree with your point here. |
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