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Post by coffee on Feb 22, 2009 19:26:43 GMT -6
I tried this out today in the sandbox game Kesher is running locally.
Page 8 of Men & Magic gives us this little gem:
In light of this, I hereby present:
Player Character Balrog:
AC: 2
Move: 6/15
Table of Levels:
Hit Magic Immolate
Level Experience * Dice Resistance ** Damage ***
====== ======== ==== ========== ==========
1 0 1 5% 1d4
2 2,500 2 15% 1d6
3 5,000 3 25% 1d6
4 10,000 4 35% 2d6
5 20,000 5 45% 2d6
6 35,000 6 55% 2d6
7 50,000 7 60% 3d6
8 100,000 8 65% 3d6
9 200,000 9 70% 3d6
10 300,000 10 75% 4d6
* I used the same progression as the Magic-User; this is obviously negotiable.
** Calculated as against an 11th level Magic-User; adjust up or down by 5% for each level difference. Thus a first level Balrog (MR 5%) against a 5th level Magic-User (-6 levels) would be 35%.
*** Only if a hit is scored with the whip, so the opponent can be brought into immolation range, or if opponent is already in contact.
(Good thing these buggers don't use magic, eh?)
Thoughts, comments and suggestions cheerfully accepted.
Edit: Can anybody tell me how to format the SOB so that the silly thing doesn't take all the tabular spaces out? Thanks!
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Post by badger2305 on Feb 22, 2009 19:37:47 GMT -6
You will not have been the first person to try this.  (well, in his case, it was as a player-character.) |
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Post by coffee on Feb 22, 2009 20:00:40 GMT -6
You will not have been the first person to try this. (well, in his case, it was as a player-character.) Couldn't read what you linked to, because I'm not a member over there (this forum is my main one). In my case it was as a player character, too. And I had a blast with it! Anyway, I really didn't think I was the first person to try it. I had just never seen the progression listed out anywhere, the way it was for dragons in the First Fantasy Campaign (still one of the greatest resources around, btw.) |
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Post by badger2305 on Feb 23, 2009 8:35:46 GMT -6
Total agreement. Being a "little" monster could be a lot of fun (though this does put me in mind of Monsters! Monsters!).
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Post by kesher on Feb 23, 2009 19:02:43 GMT -6
I think Sneerglaw worked out really well. Actual play showed him to be unique, but not overpowered. A few thoughts, after re-reading your write-up today and thinking about it a bit: - I'm inclined to flip movement rates around, and fluctuate them as the balrog grows more powerful (and presumably, larger), maybe every four levels or something. For foot, I'd suggest 12"/9"/6" and for flight, 6"/12"/15". I don't know... what do you think? I'm just struggling with why he'd have a foot rate of 6".
- At first I thought that maybe the AC should start higher and drop with level, too, but then I realized that really, he'll never be able to wear magic armor, etc., unless it's specially made, so the human-achievable 2 seems fine.
- The factor of magic resistance is interesting. You already pointed out on Sunday that it could conceivably affect healing spells; it also makes me ruminate about things like rings, potions and other "misc." items. Weapons obviously aren't affected, but it'll eventually be an issue.
- Size is interesting to think about, too. I don't imagine balrogs in ODD to be as freaking large as the one in the LotR movies, but I would imagine 8 or 9', which would eventually make dungeon-crawling difficult. Though I suppose if he were that large, he'd more often than not be out taming a wilderness somewhere...
- I really like that he's a Fighting Man by class, but advances as a Magic User. It just makes intuitive sense to me, and I think it opens up interesting possibilities for other races.
A great jump-start on something I was hoping to do at some point, myself. In fact, I think you've set a benchmark for my particular campaign: If anyone wants a new race, they need to do an official write-up before I'll consider it. |
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sham
Level 6 Magician
Posts: 385
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Post by sham on Feb 23, 2009 19:34:43 GMT -6
I think Sneerglaw worked out really well. Actual play showed him to be unique, but not overpowered. A few thoughts, after re-reading your write-up today and thinking about it a bit: - I'm inclined to flip movement rates around, and fluctuate them as the balrog grows more powerful (and presumably, larger), maybe every four levels or something. For foot, I'd suggest 12"/9"/6" and for flight, 6"/12"/15". I don't know... what do you think? I'm just struggling with why he'd have a foot rate of 6".
- At first I thought that maybe the AC should start higher and drop with level, too, but then I realized that really, he'll never be able to wear magic armor, etc., unless it's specially made, so the human-achievable 2 seems fine.
- The factor of magic resistance is interesting. You already pointed out on Sunday that it could conceivably affect healing spells; it also makes me ruminate about things like rings, potions and other "misc." items. Weapons obviously aren't affected, but it'll eventually be an issue.
- Size is interesting to think about, too. I don't imagine balrogs in ODD to be as freaking large as the one in the LotR movies, but I would imagine 8 or 9', which would eventually make dungeon-crawling difficult. Though I suppose if he were that large, he'd more often than not be out taming a wilderness somewhere...
- I really like that he's a Fighting Man by class, but advances as a Magic User. It just makes intuitive sense to me, and I think it opens up interesting possibilities for other races.
A great jump-start on something I was hoping to do at some point, myself. In fact, I think you've set a benchmark for my particular campaign: If anyone wants a new race, they need to do an official write-up before I'll consider it. Kudos to Kesher for having an open mind. I probably would have embraced this notion back in the day, but now I must admit I would have balked at the idea. Nick's homework may have convinced me to allow it, though. In regard to Magic Resistance, yes it is definitely a boon and a bane, even moreso at higher levels when that MR makes a Healing Potion or beneficial spell fizzle at the wrong moment. The way I house ruled MR in regard to items was that when a possible new item was discovered, a single MR check was made when it was picked up. If resisted, that item would NEVER function in the hands of that individual. This included weapons, armor, rings, cloaks, etc. It just doesn't work for that character. With MR increasing with experience, you might even require a new MR check on older items to see if they still function. Harsh but MR is so powerful it needs some balancing restriction like this imo. |
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Post by coffee on Feb 24, 2009 10:43:46 GMT -6
I think Sneerglaw worked out really well. Actual play showed him to be unique, but not overpowered. A few thoughts, after re-reading your write-up today and thinking about it a bit: - I'm inclined to flip movement rates around, and fluctuate them as the balrog grows more powerful (and presumably, larger), maybe every four levels or something. For foot, I'd suggest 12"/9"/6" and for flight, 6"/12"/15". I don't know... what do you think? I'm just struggling with why he'd have a foot rate of 6".
- At first I thought that maybe the AC should start higher and drop with level, too, but then I realized that really, he'll never be able to wear magic armor, etc., unless it's specially made, so the human-achievable 2 seems fine.
- The factor of magic resistance is interesting. You already pointed out on Sunday that it could conceivably affect healing spells; it also makes me ruminate about things like rings, potions and other "misc." items. Weapons obviously aren't affected, but it'll eventually be an issue.
- Size is interesting to think about, too. I don't imagine balrogs in ODD to be as freaking large as the one in the LotR movies, but I would imagine 8 or 9', which would eventually make dungeon-crawling difficult. Though I suppose if he were that large, he'd more often than not be out taming a wilderness somewhere...
- I really like that he's a Fighting Man by class, but advances as a Magic User. It just makes intuitive sense to me, and I think it opens up interesting possibilities for other races.
A great jump-start on something I was hoping to do at some point, myself. In fact, I think you've set a benchmark for my particular campaign: If anyone wants a new race, they need to do an official write-up before I'll consider it. We can do whatever you think with the movement rates. Flipping them might be just the thing. As far as the AC went, my first draft included a changing AC, gradually getting better. But it occurred to me that a first level Fighting-Man could have an AC 2, so there was no balance issue there. And since I couldn't even wear armor! I figured it would work out okay. (And, you'll note, I got hit anyway...) I've been thinking about size. I'm leaning now toward allowing more potential for growth. Maybe at first level, I should be the size of a hobbit? Of course, then, keeping the movement rate as it is would make more sense (little legs, but a nimble flyer). Anyway, I'm glad people are thinking and talking about this. It's something I always wanted to do. I've also been thinking about the Magic Resistance, and I'm leaning toward the interpretation that it only applies to spells. Sure, other magic is still magic, but the description of the monster flat out states that he wields a +1 sword. So items don't seem to be affected. And I don't recall ever seeing a Balrog or similar monster failing to be hit just because the weapon attacking was magical. It never came up. Naturally, that'll be something for the Referee to decide, in his own game, but I think that gives me a useful loophole. What do the rest of you think? |
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Post by snorri on Feb 24, 2009 11:04:31 GMT -6
I like the idea of a begining tiny hobbit-sized balrog. Looks like a familiar. Then, become a biggie!
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Post by coffee on Feb 24, 2009 11:17:47 GMT -6
I like the idea of a begining tiny hobbit-sized balrog. Looks like a familiar. Then, become a biggie! Yeah, so do I. I just wish I'd thought of it while I was actually at the table. |
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Post by coffee on Feb 24, 2009 16:54:56 GMT -6
Okay, I've added a column for size (or height, to be more exact).
It's not a linear progression; it goes up half a foot unless the number of damage dice goes up, then it goes up a full foot (since the amount of damage immolation does depends on the size of the Balrog).
I also came up with a work-around for the formatting issue.
Here it is:
Table of Levels:
...................Hit..Magic.........Immolate
Level Experience * Dice Resistance ** Damage *** .Size ****
===== ============ ==== ============= =========== =====
..1...........0......1.......5%.........1d4.......3'0"
..2.......2,500......2......15%.........1d6.......3'6"
..3.......5,000......3......25%.........1d6.......4'0"
..4......10,000......4......35%.........2d6.......5'0"
..5......20,000......5......45%.........2d6.......5'6"
..6......35,000......6......55%.........2d6.......6'0"
..7......50,000......7......60%.........3d6.......7'0"
..8.....100,000......8......65%.........3d6.......7'6"
..9.....200,000......9......70%.........3d6.......8'0"
.10.....300,000.....10......75%.........4d6.......9'0"
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Post by kesher on Feb 24, 2009 22:02:02 GMT -6
I love it! The final height is more what I was envisioning, too. I also agree with your reasoning on magic resistance, though I imagine there might be some contextual exceptions. But that's the beauty of this game we play, right? |
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miked
Level 3 Conjurer
Posts: 51
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Post by miked on Feb 26, 2009 9:14:37 GMT -6
What a great class concept (and one of my favorite Tolkien critters too). I took what was given here and created a Swords & Wizardry class - hope no one minds. S&W "Balrog" Class. |
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Post by coffee on Feb 26, 2009 9:58:49 GMT -6
I don't mind at all. I posted it here in case anyone wanted to do something with it.
The only quibble I have is the movement rates and the way you have them change. I don't mind the idea, but the base creature I was working from is the full strength monster. This is the one that has a move of 6 on the ground and 15 flying. Your version has that completely different.
I'm not objecting to the change, mind you. I'm just saying that one of my design goals was to end up, once at full power, with the monster as written in the original book.
(Mine also can't advance beyond that, as yours can, but for different games different rules obviously apply.)
All in all, very nice!
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miked
Level 3 Conjurer
Posts: 51
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Post by miked on Feb 26, 2009 10:19:33 GMT -6
I didn't look at it like that, I like working towards the final move scores too. I think I will adjust mine.
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Post by coffee on Feb 26, 2009 10:22:00 GMT -6
I'm not trying to change what you have, I'm just letting you know how I arrived at what I did.
Anyway, I really like what you did with it and the formatting you did. Have an exalt!
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miked
Level 3 Conjurer
Posts: 51
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Post by miked on Feb 26, 2009 10:23:28 GMT -6
I have updated my movement rates to match the end result (balrog monster entry).
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Post by kesher on Feb 27, 2009 9:49:50 GMT -6
AH, now I get it, Mike. I don't know how I missed the fact of further comments on this thread.
Anyhow, I agree with coffee: Thou art Exalted!
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(well, in his case, it was as a player-character.)
