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Post by gloriousbattle on Jul 26, 2011 18:15:26 GMT -6
Watching a little of the LOTR movie, and the idea came to me, is Caradhras a being?
Certainly, it is described in somewhat anthropomorphic terms, and is stated in the book (I believe) that it does not like dwarves or elves, though this could all be metaphor. Anyway, it seems to me that it certainly could be a sentient or partially sentient being.
If so, how would you represent Caradhras in D&D? What about other evil areas of terrain that might be sentient, such as a dark forest or swamp?
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Post by Falconer on Jul 27, 2011 11:38:23 GMT -6
Movie, blah. Makes it look like Saruman is doing everything, if I recall correctly!
Yeah, in the books, definitely Gimli, Boromir, and Aragorn regard Caradhras as sentient. Gandalf attributes it directly to Sauron, though.
If you look at the story in abstract mythological terms (i.e., not technically in terms of Middle-earth), obviously Sauron is a volcano-god, Goldberry is a rain-goddess, etc. I think the intent is that the Balrog is the “god” of Caradhras. In a de-mythologized Middle-earth, Caradhras would be simply a mountain with crappy weather, just like Mount Doom would be simply an active volcano. Since Middle-earth is deliberately mythological, when the characters anthropomorphize the mountain, their mythology becomes real, and there is actually a demon living in the underworld beneath the mountain who is the source of their woes.
That is how I look at it.
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Post by Falconer on Jul 27, 2011 11:39:30 GMT -6
In D&D terms, the Balrog is the “Zagyg” of Moria; everything bad that happens to you in and around Moria is ultimately because the Balrog is f**king with you! ;-)
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2011 12:19:17 GMT -6
Watching a little of the LOTR movie, and the idea came to me, is Caradhras a being? At some point (I think around there), Gandalf says something about "powers that are hostile are not all aligned with Sauron" or words to that effect. Think also about the Old Forest; it is perilous beyond the reach of Old Man Willow. I disagree with Falconer about the Balrog. I think Caradhras has its own "genius", and that this genius is an inimicable force.
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Post by gloriousbattle on Jul 28, 2011 20:02:21 GMT -6
Watching a little of the LOTR movie, and the idea came to me, is Caradhras a being? At some point (I think around there), Gandalf says something about "powers that are hostile are not all aligned with Sauron" or words to that effect. Think also about the Old Forest; it is perilous beyond the reach of Old Man Willow. I disagree with Falconer about the Balrog. I think Caradhras has its own "genius", and that this genius is an inimicable force. I tend to take a similar view. The Balrog is not the spirit of Caradhras. It seems to me to be more powerful, but less conscious than a maia, and not related to Sauron; perhaps not even aware of him.
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Post by thorswulf on Jul 28, 2011 22:16:35 GMT -6
In a related vein, how many of you know about the native superstitions surrounding Mount Mazama(aka Crater lake in Oregon)? According to legend the mountain erupted because two gods fought there. To this day on the highest part of the cldara rim it is always darker than any other spot. Like wise the mountain top that is still on top of the lake is always brighter than any other place on the caldara. Sound like silly superstition? Watch a lightning storm at night up there, and you WILL believe in ancient legends! Coincidentally, no native people will step foot on the mountain that live in the region. They consider it mighty bad medicine.
Is Caradhras sentient? Ask someone from Hawaii, and they'd probably ask you if you believe in Pele. The point is mountains all over the world have been treated as alive by people since we came into existance. How can we not attribute them with anthropamorphic natures? They are bigger than we are, and we seem insiginificant both in size and longevity. Remember the Norse believed the mountains were bones of Ymir!
Caradhras sounds like some pre creation Celtic spirit of earth in sound. As we all know the good professor loved his philology!
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bert
Level 4 Theurgist
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Post by bert on Jul 29, 2011 10:43:08 GMT -6
Cradhras is from the Professor's own Sindarin and means Redhorn - I think the Balrogists have may be on to something.
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Post by Falconer on Jul 29, 2011 12:14:45 GMT -6
My theory is based on these quotes. First, from Appendix A.III (Barazinbar = Caradhras):
And in “The Mirror of Galadriel”, Celeborn says:
These quotes suggest to me that it’s not mere coincidence that Caradhras is “cruel” when there also happens to be a “terror” beneath it.
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Post by gloriousbattle on Jul 29, 2011 14:57:56 GMT -6
My theory is based on these quotes. First, from Appendix A.III (Barazinbar = Caradhras): And in “The Mirror of Galadriel”, Celeborn says: These quotes suggest to me that it’s not mere coincidence that Caradhras is “cruel” when there also happens to be a “terror” beneath it. Mmm... no. I don't think that works. The first quote indicates that a Balrog flew to Caradhras, and had lain hidden there. It was no more the spirit of Caradhras than Gollum was the spirit of the Misty Mountains, or Smaug the spirit of Erebor simply because they lived in those places. Same thing with Celeborn's statement. A terror slept under Caradhras. That seems to say that the mountain and the balrog are separate entities.
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Post by Falconer on Jul 29, 2011 15:22:34 GMT -6
That’s like saying the President and the White House are separate entities, or the Pope and the Vatican. I’m not interested in a technical, gotcha-style debate.
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Post by gloriousbattle on Jul 29, 2011 15:55:59 GMT -6
That’s like saying the President and the White House are separate entities, or the Pope and the Vatican. I’m not interested in a technical, gotcha-style debate. I'm not trying to upset you, but look at your examples. Are you really saying that the president and the White House are the same entity?
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Post by Falconer on Jul 29, 2011 20:07:16 GMT -6
Are you really saying the White House is sentient?
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flightcommander
Level 6 Magician
"I become drunk as circumstances dictate."
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Post by flightcommander on Jul 29, 2011 22:02:26 GMT -6
Whoa! Awesome Call of Cthulhu idea!
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Post by gloriousbattle on Jul 29, 2011 23:25:29 GMT -6
Are you really saying the White House is sentient? I hope not.
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Post by gloriousbattle on Jul 30, 2011 11:50:37 GMT -6
Are you really saying the White House is sentient? I hope not. This does seem to have gotten a little off-track, though. I was hoping that for those of us who think that the terrain itself might have a will, we'd discuss what rules to use to fit it into the game.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2011 12:13:37 GMT -6
... the terrain itself might have a will, we'd discuss what rules to use to fit it into the game. Do-able, I think. Many fine examples exist in literature and film. My favorite is the "haunted tree" in the second Star Wars film "The Empire Strikes Back". I would begin by making the chance of Caradhras "noticing" the presence of a PC dependent upon level. Higher level = more powerful = greater %chance to be noticed. Alignment would also be a factor, with Lawfuls having a lot more chance of pissing off the mountain than Chaotics. Then I would devise a random events chart. It would hold attacks that would be related to natural random events, however tenuously. Falling rocks, avalanche, the pathway falling away ... using the literature as a basis I would even give old man Caradhras the ability to influence weather as a druid. In fact, I would draw quite a bit of inspiration from druid spell abilities. Are the PC's attacked at night, for example? Caradhras causes faerie fire to illuminate our heroes, etc. Just a thought.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2011 12:39:14 GMT -6
Possible abilities:
Obscure snares & pits Entangle Faerie Fire Fire Trap Heat Metal Obscurement Produce Flame Trip Warp Wood Call Lightning Cloudburst Plant Growth Pyrotechnics Snare Spike Growth Summon Insects Hallucinatory Forest Produce Fire Animal Growth Animal Summoning Insect Plague Spike Stones Conjure Fire Elemental Transmute Water to Dust Sticks to Snakes Wall of Fire Turn Wood Wall of Thorns Weather Summoning Animate Rock Confusion Conjure Earth Elemental Control Weather Creeping Doom Turn Metal to Wood
I would have the effects begin with the lower level spells, then build in severity. It is entertaining to imagine the players passing off the effects as coincidence at first, then realizing with growing horror the mountain (or other area) itself wars with them. Especially if it decides not to relent just because the PCs turn back! ;D
Fighter: "C'mon! It's a mountains for Pete's sake! What could it do?" Magic-User: (doesn't answer but his eyes grow wide as an earth elemental flows from the nearby rock ...)
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2011 15:22:12 GMT -6
Interesting thoughts.
I myself think it would be much more effective if it were ALWAYS things that "might" be "natural" occurrences.
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Post by gloriousbattle on Jul 30, 2011 18:56:51 GMT -6
Very cool indeed. Here is my idea, based a little on what others of you have suggested:
Murderer's Wood
Many years ago, seven lawless bandits were tracked down in this dark forest of hoary elms, where the sun's light never quite touched the ground. The bandtis were hung by the Grey Rangers and the Sons of the Elven King, from the branches of grandmother Embla, a huge elm tree in the center of the woods. Their ghosts lingered, and in after years became more and more imbued into the spirit of the wood itself. The whole conglomeration developed a strange, half-consciousness, that was inimical and hostile to lawful folk. As a result, the less powerful of evil creatures came to dwell here.
Rules
An encounter is rolled in these woods on 5-6 once per day:
1 kobolds (1d12) 2 goblins (1d10) 3 giant spiders (4 HD, 1d4) 4 giant wasps (3 HD, 1d6) 5 fungus growing from a tree under which the party passedis in fact green slime. 6 An old gnome meets the party, and, if they are polite and not threatening, he invites them to spend the night in his smial. He will feed them an excellent venison stew, and then tell them the story of the bandits, and of how the wood (always a somewhat dark place) became decidedly aligned to chaos after the bandit's execution.
There is a further 1 in 4 chance per encounter that the forest "takes notice" of any invaders.
When this happens, a skeleton in ragged bandit's garb appears hanging from a random tree. It is all bones, though it has open and seemingly living eyes, which follow the party members. Note, however, that no one will see the apparition unless they look up.
While the spirit is present, any chaos creatures of the wood (not those aligned with the party) get a bonus of +1 to hit, armor class, saving throws, morale, and damage per attack. The chance of any fleeing "invader" party being able to evade is halved. If the party defeats the monsters, the apparition shimmers and vanishes.
The spirit of Murderer's Wood cannot be attacked, harmed, or communicated with in any way, and it does not care if it's monster-servants are killed. The only thing that will scare it is if the PCs start burning down trees. If this happens, a bandit-spirit will appear to the party members in their dreams. It will lead them (in the dream) to a tree under the roots of which a treasure is buried (1d6 gems worth 1,000 gp each and a single random magic item). It will not speak, but will signal to the party that these items are theirs for the taking... provided that they leave the wood and do not return. The Wood is true to it's word. The party will easily locate the treasure, and will not be molested by further monsters as long as they leave and do not return.
If, on the other hand, the party keeps wandering in the woods or leaves and does return, the wrath of the spirit is aroused, and the chance of daily encounter increases to 3-6 in 6, and, in this case, the Wood will ALWAYS take notice of the party. Burning down more trees will have no further effect.
The spirit of the Wood can only be destroyed if the central Elm is burned down, and the skulls of the seven bandits (now buried beneath its roots) are ground to powder, sprinkled with a cup from the blood of a willing unicorn, and scattered in an open field at high noon.
If the tree is attacked, it will fight back with all the powers of an ent, and the bandits will rise to assist it, using the powers of specters. Even if all of these monsters are slain, the tree and bandit/specters will regenerate within a week if the rituals described above are not followed.
Beneath the tree's roots is a double type A treasure.
A sage can be hired to discover the method if destroying the spirit of Murderer's Wood, or Dalmer the holy hermit (who lives in the wild meditating and eating a on a diet of Ankheg larvae) could tell the PCs about this, though it would, of course, be perilous trying to find him.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2011 19:44:03 GMT -6
Nice work. Exalt.
did you know that warlocks reside in the underdark along-side dungeons and beavers?
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Post by badger2305 on Jul 30, 2011 19:51:33 GMT -6
Re: Murderers Wood.
Very nicely done. Not sure if I would make it so easy to encounter the gnome, but that's minor. (Have an exalt!)
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Post by gloriousbattle on Jul 30, 2011 21:10:42 GMT -6
Thanks guys.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2011 10:55:42 GMT -6
Malevolent Mountain! He's big, covered in rocks, and he's not handing out little chocolate cupcakes! Malevolent Mountain is waiting to thwart your party's plans at every twist and turn of his narrow little trails. Chance to be noticed by Malevolent Mountain: d20 + level + modifiers >= 20 = Noticed Level = number of levels of the highest ranking PC in the party. Modifiers = +1 if majority of party is Chaotic, +2 is Neutral, +3 if Lawful. Die Roll (d6) | Result |
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1 | Rockslide! Each party member must roll save versus petrification for half-damage or take 6d6 damage. | 2 | Avalanche! Roll dexterity or less on d20 or be swept off the path. Sliding damage is half-normal falling damage, being swept off a cliff incurs damage as normal.
If an avalanche is not seasonally appropriate, a tremendous thunderstorm causes intense "flash" run-off which will have the same effect. | 3 | Lightning Storm! On a roll of 1 (d6) a lightning bolt hits a randomly determined party member for 8d6 damage, save for half-damage. | 4 | White-Out! An intense snow storm obscures all vision past the end of your nose. If not seasonally appropriate, a heavy fog or dust storm has the same effect. | 5 | Watch Your Step! Ice, slime, or gravel makes for dangerous footing. Movement slows to half-speed or less, or roll a saving throw versus magic spell to avoid falling. A nearby tribe of Barsoomian white apes will lie in wait until the PCs are completely within the faulty footing area and then attack the party. The apes use their extra limbs to retain their footing, limiting them to one attack per round and negating their ability to "hug" their opponents; but preventing them from being at risk of falling. | 6 | Collapsing Pathway! d20 + 10 yards of pathway are unstable, collapsing on a roll of 1 (d6). Dwarves will be able to detect unstable footing 90% of the time (1-9 on d10).
If a portion of the walkway collapses, the 10' adjacent to that section on either side will also give way on a roll of 1 (d6). |
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Post by gloriousbattle on Jul 31, 2011 18:38:46 GMT -6
Malevolent Mountain! He's big, covered in rocks, and he's not handing out little chocolate cupcakes! Malevolent Mountain is waiting to thwart your party's plans at every twist and turn of his narrow little trails. Chance to be noticed by Malevolent Mountain: d20 + level + modifiers >= 20 = Noticed Level = number of levels of the highest ranking PC in the party. Modifiers = +1 if majority of party is Chaotic, +2 is Neutral, +3 if Lawful. Die Roll (d6) | Result |
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1 | Rockslide! Each party member must roll save versus petrification for half-damage or take 6d6 damage. | 2 | Avalanche! Roll dexterity or less on d20 or be swept off the path. Sliding damage is half-normal falling damage, being swept off a cliff incurs damage as normal.
If an avalanche is not seasonally appropriate, a tremendous thunderstorm causes intense "flash" run-off which will have the same effect. | 3 | Lightning Storm! On a roll of 1 (d6) a lightning bolt hits a randomly determined party member for 8d6 damage, save for half-damage. | 4 | White-Out! An intense snow storm obscures all vision past the end of your nose. If not seasonally appropriate, a heavy fog or dust storm has the same effect. | 5 | Watch Your Step! Ice, slime, or gravel makes for dangerous footing. Movement slows to half-speed or less, or roll a saving throw versus magic spell to avoid falling. A nearby tribe of Barsoomian white apes will lie in wait until the PCs are completely within the faulty footing area and then attack the party. The apes use their extra limbs to retain their footing, limiting them to one attack per round and negating their ability to "hug" their opponents; but preventing them from being at risk of falling. | 6 | Collapsing Pathway! d20 + 10 yards of pathway are unstable, collapsing on a roll of 1 (d6). Dwarves will be able to detect unstable footing 90% of the time (1-9 on d10).
If a portion of the walkway collapses, the 10' adjacent to that section on either side will also give way on a roll of 1 (d6). |
Extremely cool. One good exalt deserves another.
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Post by baronopal on Aug 3, 2011 17:15:07 GMT -6
That’s like saying the President and the White House are separate entities, or the Pope and the Vatican. I’m not interested in a technical, gotcha-style debate. They are separate entities, however. (Caradhras and the balrog) There is a certain amount of animism in LOTR. As the Fellowship is travelling through what was once Hillon, Legolas mentioned that the stones and plants faintly remember, and miss*, the elves that used to live there. Caradhras may havd become cranky with those dwarves rooting about inside it. I did not get the impression that the presence of the balrog imparted some sentience to the mountain. Or, that the misfortune surrounding the mountain was an action of the balrog. * One might even say, pine.
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Post by Falconer on Aug 3, 2011 18:26:47 GMT -6
They are separate entities, however. (Caradhras and the balrog) There is a certain amount of animism in LOTR. As the Fellowship is travelling through what was once Hillon, Legolas mentioned that the stones and plants faintly remember, and miss*, the elves that used to live there. Caradhras may havd become cranky with those dwarves rooting about inside it. I agree 100% with this analogy. If elves and dwarves can “animate” the world around them, a primal spirit of creation could do so just the same, or more.
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