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Post by geoffrey on Jan 30, 2011 0:52:22 GMT -6
The Arduin Grimoire was first advertised in The Dragon in its 6th issue (April 1977) on page 29. That gives us a certain measure of precision as to the book's time of publication (i. e., between January and April 1977). The FORWARD of The Arduin Grimoire begins: About three years ago [early 1974] fantasy role playing games began to become extremely popular among gamers of all types. At first it was something new and wonderful, and ideas and information flowed freely among the players.
About a year or so ago [early 1976] things began to change: the joyous game was becoming big business. And those non-amateur game designers took on all of the trappings of things that have profit as their main motivational force: greed, secretiveness, hunger to "control the market" and all of that other garbage.
Amateurs who tried to publish their ideas were being told to cease publication if their ideas even remotely resembled any those big business types had published. Yet those same people ripped the amateurs' ideas off quite freely, and with dismaying frequency.
This supplement is offered in the hopes that it will infuse new life into the amateur side of fantasy role playing games, and stimulate the free idea exchanges so sorely needed to keep this type of gaming alive and viable. Can anyone give any details to what Hargrave is saying above? What made 1974 and 1975 so golden, but 1976 so (relatively) disappointing? What ideas were stolen? From where? By whom? And where were these stolen ideas re-published? Perhaps Alarums and Excursions (which began publication in 1975) and TSR's 1976 publications are what Hargrave is thinking of? I haven't a clue, and I seek enlightenment from those who do. ;D
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Post by Finarvyn on Jan 30, 2011 7:59:22 GMT -6
Well, Tunnels and Trolls came out shortly after D&D (around as fast as Ken could type and print, apparently) and with Stragegic Review (later Dragon) going strong I imagine that with people tweaking the way they do that lots of copycat fan publications were starting to pop up. Only Judges Guild was sanctioned at the time, so I can imagine that TSR was fighting hard to keep others from their IP.
Essentially, our current situation with all of the "clones" and such, except that TSR was trying to be the only game in town. Naturally they failed, as Traveller and T&T and Arduin and so many others can prove, but they really tried to convince everyone that the "role playing game" was a unique idea and they owned it. Read some of the editorials of the era and you'll find a lot of grumpy TSR people.
I assume that this is what Hargrove means in his forward.
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Post by geoffrey on Jan 30, 2011 9:57:18 GMT -6
The earliest chilly pronouncement from Gary that I have found was published in The Dragon #11 (Dec. 1977) on page 5: "Imitation is claimed to be the sincerest form of flattery, and D&D has ample reason to be flattered. Foolish imitations are demeaning however, and shoddy ones are worse still in that to the extent that they are associated with the imitated, they lower its character and repute. Similarly, DUNGEONS & DRAGONS is an entity with excellent repute, and we stringently protect it. This is done from both paternal pride and profit motivation. Not surprisingly, we take the view that the creators and publishers know best how to develop the creation."
But the above was published almost a year after The Arduin Grimoire was published, so the above passage in particular couldn't have been in Hargrave's mind when he wrote his forward in early 1977. In fact, The Dragon #1 was published in June 1976. Thus there couldn't have been more than half a dozen issues in print at the time, plus the seven issues of The Strategic Review.
I'm not remembering cold words and snark directed towards amateurs in The Strategic Review or in the 1976 issues of The Dragon.
On another point, besides the above periodicals, the only other D&D things that TSR had published by the time The Arduin Grimoire was published are:
the 1974 rules the 4 supplements published in 1975-76 Swords & Spells
Thus, anything stolen must have been printed in the above-mentioned publications. Could Hargrave be referring to, for example, the thief character class, which was included in GREYHAWK but was written by some other guy in 1974?
I regret not "being there" and experiencing all this first-hand.
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Post by Finarvyn on Jan 30, 2011 10:44:57 GMT -6
Thus, anything stolen must have been printed in the above-mentioned publications. Could Hargrave be referring to, for example, the thief character class, which was included in GREYHAWK but was written by some other guy in 1974? Wouldn't that be ironic, being worried about someone stealing the thief class. ;D I don't know. I was around and playing in "the day" but really only was reading TSR and Judges Guild materials most of the time. I didn't discover T&T and Arduin until much later, so I'm not totally certain of the timeline. It's possible that anything "ripped off" by TSR could be interpreted as articles submitted to SR/Dragon and then absorbed as "official" or something like that. My impression (totally antidotal without any handy facts to reference) is that TSR was paranoid about idea theft from very early on. By 1977 TSR had been smacked down by the Tolkien Estate (Hobbits, Ents, etc) and Burroughs Estate (Warriors of Mars) so they likely would have been quite antagonistic toward anyone "stealing" their RPG concept. They didn't want others to steal their ideas and I remember submitting an unsolicited article sometime in the 1970's and getting it back unopened because they didn't want to be accused of stealing ideas. I'm not certain what was written as editorials on which dates, and so I'm not sure exactly at what point TSR had issues with T&T and Arduin but it's certain that this was high on their radar. I'll bet that TSR's main ire would have been directed towards T&T at that point, but it's possible that there were enough fan works starting to pop up that they were firing shots in all directions just in case.
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18 Spears
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Post by 18 Spears on Jan 30, 2011 13:34:00 GMT -6
But the above was published almost a year after The Arduin Grimoire was published, so the above passage in particular couldn't have been in Hargrave's mind when he wrote his forward in early 1977. It's possible. Remember, Geoffrey, that magazines usually go to layout a couple of months before publication. Further, I'm thinking material from Gygax was sent in "spurts" and what he wrote in The Dragon may have actually been written around the same time Hargrave penned that foreword (often the last text added to a document before printing) while Gygax's article was just sitting in a file awaiting printing.
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Post by geoffrey on Jan 30, 2011 15:12:25 GMT -6
Remember, Geoffrey, that magazines usually go to layout a couple of months before publication. Good point. This explains why the contents of the 1st issue of The Strategic Review are pre-GREYHAWK in style, even though GREYHAWK was published before The Strategic Review #1.
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Post by mythmere on Jan 30, 2011 16:02:32 GMT -6
Most importantly, any legal-oriented discussions of trademark and copyright would have been conducted privately, not on the pages of magazines. If TSR started getting aggressive about IP rights, that would not have been generally visible.
The intro might be referring to cease-and-desist letters that were going out from TSR (and possibly others, since he mentions several publishers) -- letters that weren't generally known about.
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Post by aldarron on Jan 30, 2011 20:28:28 GMT -6
Not sure of the timeline, but I do know that at some point, Hargrave was given a cease and desist order from TSR regarding Arduin, forcing him to remove (literally white out) certain words and phrases referencing D&D material directly. I wonder if the introduction you cited was written after that fact.
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Post by James Maliszewski on Jan 31, 2011 10:44:55 GMT -6
Not sure of the timeline, but I do know that at some point, Hargrave was given a cease and desist order from TSR regarding Arduin, forcing him to remove (literally white out) certain words and phrases referencing D&D material directly. I wonder if the introduction you cited was written after that fact. I believe the cease and desist letters were sent to Hargrave in late '77 or early '78, but I can't cite a source for that. If anything happened in '76, my guess would be that it was the shift in Gary's public persona with regards to fanzines and APAs. Someone with a better command of the source material than I can probably find some pertinent references on this score, but my recollection is that there were some notable flare-ups in the period between '75 and '77. That may be to what Hargrave is referring.
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Post by blackbarn on Feb 8, 2011 18:19:33 GMT -6
I get the sense it was something known about in certain circles but not documented in published materials where we will be able to find evidence of it. That's my impression, but I don't actually know the facts. I do find it interesting to see such an early case of claims that the creators were "changing" for the worse, but I don't doubt it was happening, or was perceived to be by some.
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Post by gloriousbattle on Feb 17, 2011 14:11:01 GMT -6
Most importantly, any legal-oriented discussions of trademark and copyright would have been conducted privately, not on the pages of magazines. If TSR started getting aggressive about IP rights, that would not have been generally visible. Errr... that assumes reasonable minds, and Gygax had a massive ego and a mouth to match.
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Post by ragnorakk on Feb 17, 2011 20:16:06 GMT -6
Dragon Magazines #25 & #29 show some Gygax vitriol
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Post by 18 Spears on Feb 17, 2011 20:38:35 GMT -6
Errr... that assumes reasonable minds, and Gygax had a massive ego and a mouth to match. I met the man. He was no angel but your description of him is a disservice. Okay, I'll leave what I wrote above untouched but let me explain so it doesn't sound so harsh. The Gary I met and had a beer with, and whose posts I saw online explaining many times over where those funny dice came from, did he really co-write D&D, where did the name come from, how is Gygax pronounced ... he never really seemed impatient. He could be a bit surly when his buttons were pressed but I think most of will admit to that. He always insisted he was just another gamer, that he be called "Gary" and not "Mr. Gygax". And top of all that, and be honest now ... if you invited an entirely new genre of gaming, something that had never been seen before? Wouldn't you be just a bit cocky, at times?
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Post by harami2000 on Feb 21, 2011 0:37:25 GMT -6
Can anyone give any details to what Hargrave is saying above? What made 1974 and 1975 so golden, but 1976 so (relatively) disappointing? What ideas were stolen? From where? By whom? And where were these stolen ideas re-published? Not that you'd be quoting me without a definitive source, but IIRC the obvious context I'd taken Dave's comments in was that of Gary threatening to sue the likes of Ken St. Andre for ripping off "his" game. This might be somewhat more understandable if it /was/ Gary who "invented an entirely new genre of gaming", but given the history (not least that those first RJK/EGG efforts post-Arneson demo were still hexcrawl) that's obviously not the case. A rather zealous convert, too, since Dave's comments about "Yet those same people ripped the amateurs' ideas off quite freely, and with dismaying frequency" are very much true, whether those were carried out on the sly (pretending that John Snider's SF "RPG" didn't exist and handing that concept to Jim Ward as a "this would be nice to try") or blatantly public (Boot Hill, for example...). To say nothing of what happened to Dave Arneson... "Gary vs. the fanzines" was a sideshow in those contexts. Errr... that assumes reasonable minds, and Gygax had a massive ego and a mouth to match. I met the man. He was no angel but your description of him is a disservice. Gary in later years was not the same as Gary in 1974/6. Similarly, Gary to his friends back then was clearly not the same Gary that other people experienced. 02c, anyhow, fwiw... d.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2011 22:31:12 GMT -6
Not sure of the timeline, but I do know that at some point, Hargrave was given a cease and desist order from TSR regarding Arduin, forcing him to remove (literally white out) certain words and phrases referencing D&D material directly. I wonder if the introduction you cited was written after that fact. I can't find it now, but I seem to remember reading that Hargrave approached TSR before he wrote The Arduin Grimoire and was rebuffed in a manner that he never forgave. Had things turned out differently we might have seen the best of all the Arduin stuff in a supplement or two with Kask as the editor and an easier to read format.
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Post by harami2000 on Feb 26, 2011 6:13:21 GMT -6
I can't find it now, but I seem to remember reading that Hargrave approached TSR before he wrote The Arduin Grimoire and was rebuffed in a manner that he never forgave. As well as being turned down by Chaosium? I can't think of a particular reference for Hargrave/TSR off-hand in that context, but my memory's far from the best...
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Post by jmccann on Feb 26, 2011 23:39:35 GMT -6
Dragon Magazines #25 & #29 show some Gygax vitriol I just scanned through those two issues - what are you referring to? I recall some rants of his but those two don't have any that I see.
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Post by ragnorakk on Feb 27, 2011 18:23:39 GMT -6
ooohh... maybe I got the issue numbers wrong? I was thinking of some pretty pointed observations made by Gygax as regarded Tunnels and Trolls and fanzines... I'll see if I can't look up more accurately later... sorry about that
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Post by dwayanu on Mar 15, 2011 0:10:37 GMT -6
NEW AND UNUSUAL SPELLS 41 MAGES' SPELLS (Cont'd) Name: STAFFORD'S STAR BRIDGE Level: 9th Mana Cost: 18 plus 1 per minute after 10 minutes Range: 120' Area Affected: Variable Effects: A rainbow-hued bridge of coruscating light 5' wide and 20' long per level over level needed for use. It will carry any weight, cannot be hit by non-magical things, and can be keyed to support any single type (or more), letting all others fall through selectively.
See, however, the foreword in a later printing:
About a year ago, this book first saw the light of day. Since then a lot of water has passed under the bridge of time. During that time a lot of things both good and bad have happened in the fantasy gaming field. Throughout it all I have endeavored to maintain the high standard of honesty, truthfulness and friendliness that I laid down for myself and that you came to expect of me. The high acceptance that my book (and myself personally) have received has shown the wisdom of these standards. I promise to continue on in this way for so long as you, the readers, desire me to. Thank you for a good year and I hope we will be sharing many more together as friends.
This book is offered in the spirit of sharing, and I hope you will share it with others. For in the sharing of fun and hobbys, the true meaning of friendship most often manifests itself.
This book is solely the product of my imagination although many friends helped in its painfull birthing. Therefore I would like to thank Greg Stafford of the Chaosium, Peter Savoy and Bill Voorhees who believed enough to put up money when it was needed ...
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Post by dwayanu on Mar 15, 2011 0:18:36 GMT -6
Note also that Dave went on to contribute to Chaosium's three volumes of All the Worlds' Monsters (and would gladly have added more), and that he did Arduin write-ups of figures from White Bear & Red Moon for the Wyrms Footnotes.
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Post by dwayanu on Mar 15, 2011 0:29:17 GMT -6
...they really tried to convince everyone that the "role playing game" was a unique idea and they owned it. I seem to recall that they held up GDW's efforts -- En Garde and Traveller -- as prime examples of real contribution to the field as opposed to rip offs. Some things were not so settled then, as lawsuits over computer programs, from arcade games to spreadsheets to graphical interfaces, had yet to bring some questions to a head.
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Post by dwayanu on Mar 15, 2011 0:45:06 GMT -6
Is it like "Gee, Jacks"? Seriously, I have heard that, and "Guy gacks", and probably a couple of other versions. So, what is it, really?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2011 7:06:19 GMT -6
Gary pronounced Gygax as guy gaks (hard "g" as in go, rhymes with "eye fax"), but he often went on to say that it in the old country (Switzerland) it is pronounced gee (hard "g") gaks.
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