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Post by geoffrey on Jul 24, 2008 22:18:05 GMT -6
Swords & Spells is the only one of the LBBs that I do not own. Can anyone with a copy tell me if (whether on the cover or within the text) Swords & Spells is ever labeled as "Supplement V" in any of its printings?
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Post by driver on Jul 24, 2008 23:19:10 GMT -6
My 6th print is not. The 3rd/4th print on the Acaeum isn't either, but I'm sure you already looked there.
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Post by James Maliszewski on Jul 25, 2008 7:13:40 GMT -6
Swords & Spells is only "Supplement V" in an analogical sense, since it follows the same format as the other OD&D books and was the last book published chronologically. Technically, though, it's a separate game that uses many OD&D-derived concepts and mechanics rather than being strictly supplementary to OD&D. No edition ever bore the words "Supplement V" on the cover, so far as I am aware.
That said, the book is clearly intended for use with OD&D.
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scogle
Level 3 Conjurer
Posts: 69
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Post by scogle on Jul 25, 2008 16:11:20 GMT -6
Yeah my take on it is that it was a failed replacement for the Chainmail combat system. Those whose characters survived long enough to command armies were happy enough with what they already had (if they didn't just use houserules or other wargaming rules anyway).
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Post by foster1941 on Aug 2, 2008 13:25:36 GMT -6
Swords & Spells was never labeled or advertised by TSR as D&D Supplement V (and was, in fact, released simultaneously with Supplement IV). The modern practice of referring to it as such is wholly erroneous. S&S is not a D&D supplement but rather an independent D&D-related game -- as its cover-page states: "rules for large-scale miniatures battles based on the game Dungeons & Dragons."
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Post by thegreyelf on Aug 25, 2008 7:18:26 GMT -6
Of course, the AD&D 1e DMG refers directly to Swords & Spells on several occasions when referencing rules.
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Post by philotomy on Aug 25, 2008 7:21:21 GMT -6
That's interesting. Do you have the references handy, by any chance?
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Post by thegreyelf on Feb 16, 2009 11:49:11 GMT -6
Philotomy, my apologies. This thread fell off of my radar very quickly and I never got back to you. There is a reference to Swords & Spells on page 66 of the AD&D DMG, under "Charge." I was sure there were one or two more, but am having trouble finding them.
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Post by Finarvyn on Feb 16, 2009 18:00:09 GMT -6
Just to chime in here -- many folks have mentioned S&S as a "Supplement V" but it was never an offical designation and actually nobody that I have met has ever made much use of it. My copy is as brand-new as anything on my shelf from lack of use, and I bought it in the 1970's.
I think that the problem is that Chainmail did certain things and the Fantasy Supplemnt enhanced it, but most of that line of development went away as the "alternate" combat system took off.
The whole point of OD&D was to go to man-on-man scale, so why go back? Swords & Spells might have been really neat if it had been published between Chainmail and OD&D, but after the fact simply didn't make any sense.
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Post by dwayanu on Feb 16, 2009 18:48:23 GMT -6
One needs D&D for details of the fantastic elements that really make Swords & Spells stand out. From that perspective, one could see D&D as the "supplement."
The other notable aspect is its largely dispensing with dice-rolls. The Complete Brigadier is another game with a similar element -- something that might turn off a lot of people -- but I think it's been more successful partly because it was clearly aimed at historical war-gamers.
S&S was unlikely to get a chance with anyone not already a D&D enthusiast, and those worthies were increasingly uninterested in the big battle game. Eventually, Games Workshop found a hugely successful take in Warhammer (which was much more in tune with the aesthetics of the later fantasy game market).
In my experience, Chainmail is less demanding and so better suited to a more casual interest in that part of the hobby. Depending on one's priorities, S&S might be judged a better design -- but in my experience it has seen very little play. On the other hand, I have folded bits from it back into D&D.
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Post by Finarvyn on Feb 16, 2009 22:10:54 GMT -6
I have folded bits from it back into D&D. I'd be interested in knowing what bits got pulled back into your D&D campaign. It's been years since I looked through the book, but I don't remember much I liked about it. I mostly kept it to keep my collection "complete." (Runs off to dust off copy to thumb through it....)
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Post by dwayanu on Feb 17, 2009 1:41:03 GMT -6
The only part I'm using just now is the listing of spells, which includes data for area of effect, duration and the like not in the D&D books. For instance, Sleep is given a small (1" diameter) AOE -- but has more range -- relative to the later AD&D version.
In the past, I have also used: the revised combat matrixes weapon vs. armor modifiers not in Supplement I the turn sequence first strike rules movement rules missile rules probably miscellaneous other bits and bobs that don't come to mind immediately
(I sometimes ran with a much less "stripped down" rules set than today.)
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Post by Finarvyn on Feb 17, 2009 8:40:29 GMT -6
Okay, so do these rules make OD&D more like AD&D or do they supplement Chainmail and the Fantasy Supplement?
What I mean is that OD&D was already evolving in the direction of AD&D, so do you take the most evolved aspects of OD&D and add onto them (which would really make S&S a Supplement V) or do you go back to the earlier form of OD&D and use elements of S&S to move in a new direction.
Does my question even make sense? (Not sure as I type it if I'm incoherent or not.)
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Post by James Maliszewski on Feb 17, 2009 19:00:41 GMT -6
Okay, so do these rules make OD&D more like AD&D or do they supplement Chainmail and the Fantasy Supplement? Swords & Spells is a new set of miniatures rules entirely and does not supplement Chainmail at all. In his introduction, Gygax claims that these new rules are better suited for playing mass combats with OD&D than are the Chainmail rules. It's easy to see why, since (to cite just one example) every D&D spell, including those from the supplements, is given stats for use in mass combat. Indeed, the overall terminology and mechanics draw strongly on OD&D. So, in my opinion, it's a supplement to OD&D in all but name.
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Post by thegreyelf on Mar 3, 2009 14:40:38 GMT -6
I agree with James. Swords & Spells is a supplement in all but name. I've always considered it Supplement V, myself.
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