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Post by Falconer on Feb 20, 2008 0:02:51 GMT -6
Just curious if Svenny and the others could comment on how much Tolkien was an influence on Arneson’s original campaign.
I mean, we’ve all see Gygax’s protestations against Tolkien’s influence (but that may have to do more with Greyhawk, AD&D, and the modules), but the presence of Tolkien is heavily apparent in OD&D proper, as well as in Chainmail and FFC. On the other hand, we know there was a lot of “weird” stuff in Blackmoor, so obviously Tolkien was just one of many influences. I guess I just wonder if it was major or minor, as you see it.
And what other influences were apparent? Regards.
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Post by James Maliszewski on Feb 20, 2008 9:12:41 GMT -6
This isn't completely relevant but I'll mention it anyway: the Judges Guild Wilderlands setting began as a campaign set in Middle Earth and then expanded rapidly -- and idiosyncratically -- from there. I think one of the things we need to remember is that early gaming, much like the science fiction and fantasy from the same era, was "omnivorous" and gleefully stole bits and pieces from a wide range of influences. It's not for nothing that most of the earliest D&D settings included what we'd call today science fictional elements but which, at the time, were just part of the great goulash from which our hobby was born.
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Post by gsvenson on Feb 20, 2008 9:29:23 GMT -6
Tolkien was a major influence, otherwise the primary races would not have included elves, dwarfs, hobbits, orcs and goblins; but, at the same time, as James said, there were many 'major' influences on our games. We all read lots of Sci Fi and Fantasy. Remember there was no cable TV or VHS and DVD players for entertainment in those days...
If I remember, I will ask Dave next time I see him (no promises though, I seem to have frequent senior moments these days).
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Post by Finarvyn on Feb 20, 2008 12:47:28 GMT -6
No matter how anyone tries to "spin" the past, it's clear that Tolkien was a major influence in almost all gaming settings in the 1970's.
* Chainmail contained all sorts of Tolkien-isms, from Ents to Balrogs to Hobbits, and so on.
* The LBB of OD&D had similar Tolkien references in early printings, carefully edited for later printings.
* Tunnels & Trolls made use of Hobbits and Balrogs and the like.
* Battle of the Five Armies was an early TSR wargame, circa mid-70's.
I'm not sure why everyone wants to deny all this history, but it's clear that Tolkien wrote one of the classics of fantasy literature that inspired an entire generation of authors so why not game designers as well?
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Post by James Maliszewski on Feb 20, 2008 13:24:41 GMT -6
I'm not sure why everyone wants to deny all this history, but it's clear that Tolkien wrote one of the classics of fantasy literature that inspired an entire generation of authors so why not game designers as well? I'm not sure anyone is trying to deny history at all. No one, Gygax included, would deny the influence of Tolkien on the game, but what I think people sometimes confuse the development of D&D with its popularity. Tolkien's influence over the latter is far more significant than the former, I think, which is to say, D&D succeeded as well as it did because Tolkien had introduced an entire generation to concepts, themes, and ideas they'd never really encountered as powerfully before. Gygax and Arneson took those ideas and ran with them, but I think, if you asked them, they'd without guile or dissimulation say that other influences were at least as, and probably more, potent on the development of the game. Sure, there are hobbits and ents and balrogs but the LBBs never once mention Tolkien or the trilogy by name, whereas they do mention John Carter and Barsoom and included thoats and siths and banths in the wilderness encounter tables. When Gygax says that Tolkien wasn't a huge influence on him, I take him at his word. It's not like he's ever hidden what his influences were. |
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Post by foster1941 on Feb 20, 2008 13:36:54 GMT -6
Tolkien/LotR had a huge cultural (or at least counter-cultural) footprint in the 60s and early 70s (i.e. when D&D was being created). Even if we take Gygax at his word that he's not a big fan of LotR (though he does claim to like The Hobbit) it's undeniable that pretty much everybody else who was involved in the early history (and pre-history) of D&D was heavily influenced by it, players and designers alike.
It seems to me that the primary literary influences on the Chainmail Fantasy Supplement were Tolkien and Conan, with a dash of Anderson and Moorcock. To this mix Arneson didn't seem to add much fantasy-wise, but did add a healthy dose of "Hollywood" sci-fi & horror (Dracula, The Blob, creepy castles, mad scientists, etc.). Going back to Gygax and Greyhawk, Vance and Leiber get added into the mix and that seems to be about where things stood at the time the original set was released. Supplement I adds even more Vance and Leiber, as well as a lot of A. Merritt, some Lovecraft, and perhaps some Clark Ashton Smith (pet theory: the CAS-influence is the main thing that separates "Kuntz-feel" D&D from "Gygax-feel" D&D -- I detect a lot of CAS in Rob's work and little if any in Gary's) and the result is pretty much "the AD&D feel" -- ERB and de Camp & Pratt (and a ton more authors faithfully catalogued in Gygax's "Inspirational Reading" list in the AD&D DMG) also fit in there somewhere, though perhaps more obliquely.
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Post by foster1941 on Feb 20, 2008 13:42:54 GMT -6
the LBBs never once mention Tolkien or the trilogy by name Be careful: the early printings mention Tolkien (or, rather, "Tolkein") repeatedly in the monster descriptions (orcs, wights, spectres, rocs, and perhaps others). All of these references were, of course, scrubbed out alongside the hobbit/ent/balrog name-changes in the 6th (OCE) printing. |
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Post by James Maliszewski on Feb 20, 2008 13:47:31 GMT -6
Be careful: the early printings mention Tolkien (or, rather, "Tolkein") repeatedly in the monster descriptions (orcs, wights, spectres, rocs, and perhaps others). All of these references were, of course, scrubbed out alongside the hobbit/ent/balrog name-changes in the 6th (OCE) printing. Yes, you're correct; I'd forgotten that. I recall that even the Holmes edition mentions Tolkien in the wight entry ("barrow wights, as per Tolkien" or something along those lines). That said, I'll still take Gygax at his word that his primary inspirations were pulp fantasy authors, with Tolkien used mostly to tap into something that was already popular and draw people into the game. If anything, I'd expect Arneson was even less influenced by Tolkien, but can't say that with certainty. |
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Post by badger2305 on Feb 20, 2008 15:34:55 GMT -6
Dave Arneson has said several different times that the original inspiration for "proto-D&D" came from a weekend spent reading (or perhaps rereading) Conan novels and watching a horror movie marathon on a local TV station (probably "Horror, Inc." - the cover name for the late-night horror movies on KSTP-Channel 5, in the Twin Cities).
And I'm not so sure that Gary's wasn't strongly influenced by Tolkien. I mean, he was the final approval on the original manuscript and game (something Dave may have regretted, in retrospect), and the original game has a lot of Tolkien clearly in it. It may be the case that Gary, now that time has gone by, simply doesn't feel it necessary to acknowledge that early influence. But it's a debatable point, so I'll let that slide.
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