Dropping the Cleric

I had also thought of something like you mentioned in "druidfying" in them, I had considered just making several different variants of the class for each of the major pantheons. I hadn't thought of it but if I do simply do away with the class I will most certainly add their spell list to that of the Magic User. Thank you for your suggestions.

I never much like by-the-book clerics as PC class, and haven't had them in any of my numerous games for years (including Hinterlands and Moria on these boards). I don't believe my games ever suffered for it.

Various "replacement" mechanisms I have used include:

* Use of Druids exclusively in place of clerics,
* Replaced by "Templar" class (more like a paladin than a cleric),
* Replaced by "Men of Faith" and "Sisters of Mercy" (non-combative),
* Replaced by "Healer" (non-combative),
* Self healing by resting, and/or drinking a strong draft,
* Turn undead as a spell rather than a class ability,

In the end, whether or not the cleric is a good fit is all about the flavour of your campaign.

One thing I do like about removing clerics is that each player becomes responsible for his own hit points. It is no longer up to the "the cleric" keep the players topped up.


Having said all that, however, during my recent role on the Delving Deeper project I have been through the source material exactingly, and as a result I am far more inclined to give clerics another go in my next game.

The main reason for this change of heart is the realisation that of all the PC classes (in OD&D) only clerics have the built in drama of the eternal struggle between law and chaos. The lawful cleric is forever at risk of becoming an anti-cleric. And high level anti-clerics are extremely potent enemy!

Worth considering, perhaps?

In the past, I've run games without clerics using the following rules:

1. After each combat, 1/2 of the HP lost during that combat are recovered.
2. Once per day, a character can recover 1d6 HP by imbibing a strong drink (wine or the like).
3. Healing occurs at a rate of (Character Level +1 if Con 15+) points/day.

It always worked out well, and it was interesting to see a D&D game where one player wasn't expected to be a medic.

This is from Delta's D&D Hotspot ( deltasdnd.blogspot.com/p/primary-house-rules.html ) :

Sometime around mid-2008 I had the epiphany that I had to discard Clerics from my game. That was an admittedly radical step, but the amount of relief I felt immediately was intense, and I haven't looked back since. D&D finally "felt right" to me. Now, I treat Thieves (from Sup-I) as a "replacement" for the 3rd core OD&D class slot. The clerical healing function I provide by making potions of healing available for market purchase.

The advantages I personally find to this approach are so numerous that I'm compelled to present them in list form:

1.Don't have to detail a list of gods before play begins (i.e., avoids DDG-type requirement); can keep gods as a mystery or forego them entirely.

2.Don't have to deal with integrated Christian mythology and institutions (equipment-list crosses, biblical-based spell list, Catholic class level titles, etc.)

3.Don't have to deal with proliferation of miraculous abilities among clergy in every church in the campaign.

4.Streamlines the magic system to just one class (wizards).

5.Avoids many problematic spells (silence 15' radius, know alignment, etc.)

6.No open-access to entire spell list, thereby avoiding brokenness (becoming overpowered) and plot irregularities when spell lists are expanded.

7.No turn-undead ability, which turns otherwise fearsome monster types into the most easily defeated ones.

8.Healing "requirement" is spread across entire party, not just one player.

9.Creates an elegant system of one class each using d4/d6/d8 hit dice, none/light/heavy armor, and attacks progression at 2/3/4 levels.

10.Avoids disassociation with priest/healer archetype that is more generally seen as peaceful, robe-wearing, etc.

11.Avoids robbing fighters of specialty in wearing heavy armor.

12.Avoids singularity of the only class unavailable to demihumans or multiclassing in OD&D (or listed as NPC-only in the AD&D PHB).

13.Avoids oddity of one class type mostly missing from OD&D wandering monster tables.

14.Matches most pulp fantasy sources in which fighters/thieves/wizards are common, but miraculous warrior clerics are rarely (if ever) seen.

Also see:
deltasdnd.blogspot.com/2010/05/giants-in-earth-index.html
deltasdnd.blogspot.com/2010/04/gygax-on-religion-in-d-oct-1982.html
deltasdnd.blogspot.com/2008/02/those-blasted-clerics.html
deltasdnd.blogspot.com/2007/03/random-likesdislikes-in-od.html
deltasdnd.blogspot.com/2007/03/class-trouble-ii-clerics.html

Truth be told, this this be the case with any class, not just the cleric. No class should be so indispensable that the game does not work without them. Besides, while clerics are the only class with access to healing magic (barring druids, of course), the PC himself has a rather limited access. That is, Cure Light Wounds is a 1st level spell, and he gets previous few of those at low levels. He doesn't get Cure Serious Wounds until he can cast 4th level spells. If a DM is relying on the cleric having access to a Staff of Healing or scrolls, then these might just as well be represented as magic items that anyone could use. That the cleric might have ways of overcoming obstacles others do not, this hardly makes him a necessary character.

On the other hand, I love clerics! We might just as easily point out that PC magic users are nearly as "out of place" in the inspirational literature as clerics. Can you have D&D with fighting men, clerics, and thieves only? Sure. Instead of talismans and potions for healing, have magical arrows of Fire Ball, sleep powder grenades, etc., or give the cleric a few smiting spells (in the manner of giving MUs the spells on the cleric list).

IMHO if you drop Clerics you could drop also the Alignment system: with no Clerics around (or other aligned classes) it becomes meaningless.

Anyway, I've played some campaigns with no Clerics/Healbots too: I love Fairies a lot, so I've used them both as NPCs and PCs.


In a couple of campaigns I've introduced a Fairy NPC for the group: any PC could use her healing powder to heal 1d4 HPs only once a day, and the whole group could recover additional +1d4 HPs with rest.

Later I've also created a Fairy PC class: same as Hobbit/Halfling but with lower HDs and no missile skill (replaced by the healing skill described above); in addition, once per level the Fairy could gather other Fairies to double her healing effects (but in woodland areas or close to ponds).

I realize that you are quoting others' views not precisely your own, but I wonder how Appendix N Magic Users really are as PCs anyway. For that matter, many of the monsters are rather more chivalric (in the way that the Medieval romances looted from Greco-Roman lore as well as Germanic and Celtic myth) than swords & sorcery, not to mention having non-human characters. My point, if I have one, is that a *lot* of the game as presented needs tweaking to make it swords & sorcery, not just the absence of the cleric. The cleric, on the other hand, seems a natural fit in a world with gryphons, vampires, werewolves, demons, and the like, i.e. the standard horrors of Medieval European lore.

Will the game work without the cleric? Sure it will, as it will work without the MU or the thief. (Probably not without fighting men!)

This is all in your mind, because I've never stated that.

It's explained along in my Men & Magic of Middle Earth thread.

Enjoy

I don't quite see this connection.

I've always seen Law as being builders and Chaos as destroyers. Orcs like to burn things, but not because of a god told them to do it.

Or, if you like, think about Law as structure and Chaos as randomness. Fairies don't follow directions so they are chaotic.

The original alignment system was more of "us" against "them." Why would it have to be tied to religion?

Conversely, I have successfully run a campaign with clerics but without alignment. It is perfectly feasible to have gods of death, magic, time, love, the hunt, etc. in a world without Law vs. Chaos. In fact it is kind of fun for each god's clerics to have subtle beliefs and allegiances that are not defined by a polarizing alignment axis.

You should see how little of the D&D rules I've been using lately. I bet they would fit on the front and back of a single sheet of paper. Of course, this is only from my point of view as the DM. The players are responsible for bringing whatever player books they need for their characters. If you want to play an AD&D paladin, you'd better bring the AD&D Players Handbook. If you want to play a C&C bard, you'd better bring the C&C Players Handbook. If you want to play an AD&D barbarian, you'd better bring Unearthed Arcana (or Dragon #63!). Etc. I'll allow anything in any pre-3rd edition rulebook, and I allow anything from C&C and the old HackMaster as well. Retro-clones? You betcha!

The thing is, I don't use ANY of that stuff for my NPCs. NPCs don't play by the rules. ;D

When a player wants to run a cleric in my campaign, I make them design their own religion and the main god that they pray to.

This does not have to be terribly detailed, just a basic hierarchy of leadership as their character knows it, holy sites, rites etc. I can always add to it since it is from character knowledge not player knowledge.

Saves me time, presents ideas that I would never have, and the players love it.

Actually, that could create quite an interesting game world....