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Post by kent on Apr 30, 2014 11:47:51 GMT -6
In the fifties, when Tolkien conceived the Dunedain as 'Rangers' what did he have in mind? In usage it appears to be very much an American word. The military had adopted the word loosely in WWII but they too were borrowing it. If the origins of the word lie in the horsed protectors over vast landscapes of western settlers in the US is this what Tolkien had in mind I wonder?
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Post by Stormcrow on Apr 30, 2014 13:05:04 GMT -6
A ranger is simply a person who wanders far and wide. It's a term given to the Dunedain by the Bree-folk out of ignorance, not knowing them to be anything but riffraff who come and go as they please.
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Post by kent on Apr 30, 2014 13:37:03 GMT -6
Did the Bree-folk name the Rangers of Ithilien too?
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Post by cadriel on Apr 30, 2014 13:49:50 GMT -6
There were various British and Irish army units known as rangers (King's / Queen's Rangers, etc), no?
Given that the Rangers of the North and the Rangers of Ithilien were effectively military units, "ranger" was probably chosen by Tolkien as a word that implied both a military unit and some travel on the part of the members. It's important to recall that the conceit of The Lord of the Rings is that the entire book is translated out of Westron, with the exception of Sindarin and Quenya names, so in Tolkien's imagination these groups probably had Westron names just like Frodo was Maura Labingi.
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Post by Falconer on Apr 30, 2014 13:50:20 GMT -6
Stormcrow is right, and originally Tolkien conceived of Rangers as as a word for “wild hobbits” — in other words, specifically in contrast to the homebody “ordinary folk” of the Shire and Breeland. Of course, it later evolved that the Rangers of the North were the Dúnedain remnants of Arthedain.
Later, he also added the Rangers of Ithilien. I assume it is not coincidental that both Númenórean kingdoms had a tradition of Rangers, both called Rangers and both sharing some key attributes — pure Dúnadan ancestry; fluency in Sindarin; favoring “Elvish” abilities such as keen senses and conversation with animals. Perhaps these traditions can be traced all the way back to the Elendili.
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Post by kent on Apr 30, 2014 14:31:57 GMT -6
Tolkien conceived of Rangers as as a word for “wild hobbits” I assume the source for this is some HoME volume I don't have. I was aware Strider/Trotter was originally a wild hobbit but did Tolkien explicitly use 'Ranger' for him? Stormcrow is right, and originally Tolkien conceived of Rangers as as a word for “wild hobbits” ... Later, he also added the Rangers of Ithilien. This is just implausible that Tolkien conceived of wild hobbits and the Rangers of ithilien with the same sense of the word 'ranger'. Perhaps he was aware of the flexibility or depth of the word when he retained it as the Rangers became more obviously Guardians and not merely wild wanderers (tinkers). It is hard to imagine the Rangers north and south referring to themselves as 'rangers' only in the sense of wanderers. Aragorn and Faramir clearly aren't wild wanderers travelling aimlessly. I think the question hinges on whether Aragorn and Faramir referred to themselves as 'Rangers', and if they did Tolkien must have considered the word could cover the sense of guardianship. It is too much of a coincidence that the word has a strong history of use with martial overtones. So Im still wondering if Tolkien was aware of the very American sense of guardianship associated with the word.
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Post by Porphyre on Apr 30, 2014 14:48:12 GMT -6
I think that Rangers have been part of the British Armies since the Seven Years' War (1754 - 1763), so the term -in its more martial acceptation- predates WW2 and was more evocative of scouting units specialized in reconnaissance in woodland wilderness rather than "horsed protectors over vast landscapes ".
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Post by kent on Apr 30, 2014 15:26:14 GMT -6
I think that Rangers have been part of the British Armies since the Seven Years' War (1754 - 1763) Source? >>so the term -in its more martial acceptation- predates WW2<< Yeah I am quite aware of that. >>"horsed protectors over vast landscapes ". The protectors of the colonists predate the military use of the word.
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Post by derv on Apr 30, 2014 16:20:25 GMT -6
The earliest American martial use of the term "Ranger" that I'm aware of is with "Roger's Ranger's". This was a special unit of colonists attatched to British forces during the French and Indian War. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogers%27_RangersI'm certain Tolkien would have been aware of the titles historical associations.
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Post by geoffrey on Apr 30, 2014 16:26:08 GMT -6
Didn't Tolkien work on the Oxford English Dictionary? Perhaps its entry on "ranger" might be illuminating.
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Post by kent on Apr 30, 2014 17:13:17 GMT -6
The earliest American martial use of the term "Ranger" that I'm aware of is with "Roger's Ranger's". This was a special unit of colonists attatched to British forces during the French and Indian War. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogers%27_RangersI'm certain Tolkien would have been aware of the titles historical associations. Yes I knew all about the American references but you said British.
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Post by kent on Apr 30, 2014 17:17:44 GMT -6
Didn't Tolkien work on the Oxford English Dictionary? Perhaps its entry on "ranger" might be illuminating. Ha! Geoff! Yes he did and I read the OED before posting (which is why Im annoyed when people respond with an ordinary dictionary definition with great authority). What Im really hoping for is that someone spots a reference in Tolkien's letters or elsewhere to his conception of the word, why he chose it and if he was aware of the American martial connotation, Im sure he was but Id like a source for it.
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Post by derv on Apr 30, 2014 18:05:27 GMT -6
The earliest American martial use of the term "Ranger" that I'm aware of is with "Roger's Ranger's". This was a special unit of colonists attatched to British forces during the French and Indian War. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogers%27_RangersI'm certain Tolkien would have been aware of the titles historical associations. Yes I knew all about the American references but you said British. I believe any British use of the word "Ranger" stems from this same time period and in the context of the America's. Prior to the Revolution, these units were all under British military authority. One such organization, not part of the colonies, that was formed in 1776 was specifically known as "British Rangers". It was led by Captain Simon Fraser. They were also known as the "Company of Select Marksmen". Not that any of this specifically helps you with Tolkien's intent for the word "Ranger". But I personally find it hard not to associate it with these things when others use the term. edit: Let me personally add, that I agree with your opening statement that "Ranger" is "very much an American word". It suggests that the person is an exceptionally skilled woodsman who is adept at living in a wilderness environment.
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Post by Falconer on May 1, 2014 10:24:54 GMT -6
What Im really hoping for is that someone spots a reference in Tolkien's letters or elsewhere to his conception of the word Elsewhere as in HoMe. I suggest Vol. VI, The Return of the Shadow. My books are all in boxes (I just moved on Tuesday), otherwise I would fish it out and post all the relevant quotes for you.
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Post by kent on May 1, 2014 12:57:41 GMT -6
What Im really hoping for is that someone spots a reference in Tolkien's letters or elsewhere to his conception of the word Elsewhere as in HoMe. I suggest Vol. VI, The Return of the Shadow. My books are all in boxes (I just moved on Tuesday), otherwise I would fish it out and post all the relevant quotes for you. Glancing at HoME VI, which I own but have not read, I have to say that Trotter is pretty cool as a hobbit wilderness guardian! JRR Tolkien makes a note on a draft manuscript, 'Rangers are best not as hobbits, perhaps' (Tolkien's italics). The point being here he thinks of them as a group. At no time did Tolkien have in his mind that his use of the word 'Ranger' merely meant someone wandering far and wide. In the development of his conception Rangers were always a mysterious group, even to the ignorant Bree-folk, and we can presume that Rangers were never mysterious to themselves but had a purpose.
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Post by Stormcrow on May 1, 2014 16:13:33 GMT -6
I find it fascinating how you can sustain arguments that no one is interested in having.
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Post by kent on May 1, 2014 16:30:50 GMT -6
I would be grateful, as I told you before, if you would confirm your disinterest by never commenting in threads I start. Your contribution to discussion is always that of a self-considered expert and yet I personally find your contributions worthless and distracting to others as indeed in this thread.
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Post by Finarvyn on May 1, 2014 18:52:26 GMT -6
Cool off. Another thread bites the dust.
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