RPGPundit hates Isle of the Unknown.

[geoffrey]

Here is his review: therpgpundit.blogspot.com/2014/04/rpgpundit-reviews-isle-of-unknown.html

I think that most of what he dislikes about Isle of the Unknown is true also of Bob Bledsaw's early Wilderlands products (such as Wilderlands of High Fantasy and Fantastic Wilderlands Beyonde). For example, the reviewer writes:

"There's no organizations, no important NPCs (the mages, clerics, etc are all nameless). There's no agendas or important events. There are a tiny handful of cases where there's some connection made between one hex and another (the people of a town know about an ice wizard two hexes over, or a cleric in one hex wants to kill a monster in another hex). There's no mention of lairs or treasures, no dungeon maps."

In the Bledsaw products I mentioned above, I do not remember organizations, agendas, important events, explicit connections between hexes, lairs, or dungeon maps.

It is not true that Isle of the Unknown does not have important NPCs. There are dozens of them. I followed Gary Gygax's B2: The Keep on the Borderlands in not naming the NPCs. I did this for two reasons: 1) I like the Tarot-card-like quality of mystery that "The Castellan" has as opposed to "Krikdor [or whatever] the Castellan"; and 2) I tend to dislike most of the names in FRPG products, and I suspect that most people would dislike any fantasy names that I might have put in Isle of the Unknown. Each referee has his own distinctive ideas for nomenclature.

It is also not true that there are no treasures in Isle of the Unknown. There are far fewer than in most published FRPG products, but I find coins, gems, and jewelry uninspiring. In any case, I do not remember a lot of treasures in Bledsaw's early Wilderlands products mentioned above.

Later the reviewer regrets the encounters with "no name, motivation, alignment, purpose or point". Again, I do not remember much in the way of motivation, purpose, or point to the encounters in Bledsaw's early Wilderlands products mentioned above. They are instead provided as inspiration for the pontifical referee's imagination and whim.

My impression is that RPGPundit does not like the 1970s-style presentation of fantasy wilderness. He seems to prefer the later style that really came into its own with Dragonlance and Forgotten Realms products. Quite a few D&Ders, upon looking at early Wilderlands products, basically ask, "What the devil is this? It's...worthless." They like for most of the connecting and imagining to have been done for them. Personally, I don't care for that sort of thing. I like sketchy, terse encounters with little or no commentary. (It's funny that Isle of the Unknown is actually wordier than Bledsaw.) For example, my favorite city product is Albert Rakowski's Towers of Krshal.

I must comment on RPGPundit's dislike of the monsters in Isle of the Unknown. I admit to a long-standing predilection for crazy, random monsters. I like Shub-Niggurath endlessly generating crazy things. I like the random mutations tables in 1st-edition Gamma World. I like Crabaugh's random monster generator in the Oct. 1977 The Dragon (issue #10). I like Appendix D in Gary's DMG. I love James Raggi's Random Esoteric Creature Generator. I like the chimeric creatures you can find in medieval and renaissance illustrations. (Look at this thread: odd74.proboards.com/thread/9898/weird-monsters-middle-ages .) Etc. I find those sorts of things more inspiring than the standard D&D bestiary.

Are my monsters too crazy? One could argue that they are not crazy enough. Consider Judges Guild's Field Guide to Encounters. It includes stats for monsters that are giant cups of coffee, giant pieces of burnt toast, giant over-easy eggs, etc. I think that is awesome. It is gonzo, 1970s OD&D. Such monsters, admittedly, would not fit into many of the later, more self-serious fantasy worlds that have been published.

I think the reviewer did not look too deeply into Isle of the Unknown because a quick perusal informed him that the book wasn't his cup of tea. The review contains too many erroneous assumptions. Also, I suspect he did not use it in play. The book is not meant to be read cover-to-cover, but rather to be used during gaming. Players can gradually discover the rhyme and reason for the placement of various encounters in the Isle as they explore and map. This sort of thing is not apparent to a first-time reader.

Too Long, Didn't Read Version: I think the RPGPundit prefers the wordier style of the 1980s and later (in which most everything is detailed for you) to the terse style of the 1970s (in which products were intended as springboards for one's own imagination).

[kent]

That was a harshly worded review from the RPGPundit but he is fair and consistent in those reviews of his Ive read.

Geoffrey, what fraction of gaming time did your group spend in an Isle of the Unknown campaign compared to your Carcosa campaign?

>>I think the RPGPundit prefers the wordier style of the 1980s and later (in which most everything is detailed for you) to the terse style of the 1970s (in which products were intended as springboards for one's own imagination).<<

It is important to stress that the 70s style of gaming products yielded much more rubbish than the 80s did. The constrained professionalism of the 80s produced dull unambitious material stamped out by formula. The material from the 70s varied wildly in quality, most of it junk, and only some works were peerless like the JG Wilderlands. I think it is immodest to compare IotU to those supplements merely because you aped the form. It wasn't the form that made the Wilderlands a success so much as the quality of the ideas.

>>Are my monsters too crazy?<<

No, monsters derived solely from random tables are shallow compared with monsters derived from myth & legend. They are thoughtless by definition.

[Finarvyn]

Apr 27, 2014 0:36:42 GMT -6 geoffrey said:

I think the RPGPundit prefers the wordier style of the 1980s and later (in which most everything is detailed for you) to the terse style of the 1970s (in which products were intended as springboards for one's own imagination).

(1) RPGPundit hates anything that isn't his style. And he does so typically with vemon. He seems like a nice enough guy, but he's very rude to people who like things that he doesn't like.

(2) I think that most of the Wilderlands material is an acquired taste for latecomers to role playing. Heck, most 1970's stuff is an acquired taste for latecomers to role playing. I'm the other way around and see new RPG books as being filled with fluff of stuff I don't need. I'm not surprised when folks don't "get" the 1970's style of play.

(3) As Kent noted, a large percentage of 1970's material wasn't that great. I loved the first Wilderlands map (with Thunderhold, CSIO, Modron, Haghill, etc.) because it had more development, but found later Wilderlands products weaker because they didn't have the support of the first one.

(4) Isle of the Unknown is a fine product. It evokes images of the good old days to me, which is probably why newcomers to the industry don't always get it.

[cadriel]

I think this review is awful and Isle of the Unknown is one of the under-appreciated products in the RPG scene, though I confess I like Dungeon of the Unknown a bit more because it has the glop generator in it. The review is basically demanding things that a cursory reading of the book's introduction (or more still the longer introduction that you posted here) would have immediately dispelled as not being what the book is about, and manages to pregnant dog about the quality of the chimeric creatures, which I've actually used in games and come across as interesting and fresh encounters as opposed to the same handful of monsters featured in most modules.

The rant at the end about "insult propaganda" comes across as paranoid and psychotic, and I think this review really helps show that the RPGPundit is not worth listening to in anything he says.

[waysoftheearth]

I have't read IotU.

But I do reckon there's a relatively small (but enthusiastic) segment of the D&D fraternity who are interested in tools and frameworks that help them build stuff for themselves. There's a much larger audience for the creative output of those tools and frameworks; the "ready to go adventure"s. Somewhere in between will be even scarcer stuff that is neither adventure material nor out-and-out "utility" per se, and therefore won't be immediately recognisable to folks looking for the former or for the latter.

[derv]

Well, it appears this was not the RPGPundit's cup of tea. He did say some positive things about the art and production value of the book though.

I've always taken the Pundit as somewhat of a Shock-Jock. It is part of his personae and this is the internet, where drama always draws the crowd.

Maybe any plublicity is good publicity?

[geoffrey]

Kent,

I'd guess that my group has spent roughly twice as much time in Carcosa as in Isle of the Unknown.

My point with the Wilderlands comparisons was not so much about the Wilderlands, or Isle of the Unknown, or the RPGPundit. Rather, it was my melancholy reflection on the fact that most gamers do not like the sort of things that I like:

OD&D
old Judges Guild products
old Arduin booklets
Tegel Manor
Towers of Krshal
supposedly lazy and useless spells such as Infuse and Omar's Mistake in Eldritch Weirdness by Matt Finch

Thus the short list of the above sort of thing, but the endless lists of Forgotten Realms products, Dragonlance products, etc. I'm not sad that RPGPundit doesn't like Isle of the Unknown. (After all, since it was a free review copy, he got what he paid for. ) Rather, I'm sad that the popularity of his sort of taste ensures that few things are published to my taste.

[kent]

I see what you mean.

AD&D and a handful of things by Bledsaw, Jaquays and Gygax including OD&D occupy 95% of the RPG universe as far as Im concerned and places like theRPGsite and RPGnet are bewlidering irrelevances to me. The only people I discuss gaming with where I live are my players so I have little appreciation for that large 'other' population of gamers and even less respect for the rpgs they use when they get together. You, perhaps, have been moved to care about these gamers because, as someone who has published, you are sensitive to volume of sales.

Five years ago I was not aware that OD&D, Judges Guild or Jaquays existed, so I have been discovering the old simultaneously with what passes for the new in RPGs. You only have to look at literature or music to see that what is popular does not indicate what is good, and I believe that you have to patiently wait or hunt for good stuff and can't infect the mob with good taste to speed the process.

[Deleted]

Almost immediately after OD&D was published, Gary started getting letters asking for more concrete information.

He was astounded. His reaction was, "why have us do any more of your imagining for you?"

[kent]

Apr 27, 2014 8:27:22 GMT -6 geoffrey said:

I'd guess that my group has spent roughly twice as much time in Carcosa as in Isle of the Unknown.

As your group discovered the strange and incongruous things did you attempt to make them cohere, to interpret them, to build some sense for the island from all the randomness or did you let them stand as isolated unknowables?

If the former it might be profitable to show by example one way this might be done, at the same time making it clear to people like RPGpunnet the kind of effort of imagination expected from the reader.

If the latter, I think the primary problem with an incoherent hodge-podge of wonders is that it removes the players' ability to make inferences about their environment, to think and draw conclusions and frankly to imagine the environment beyond what they are explicitly told.

[geoffrey]

Apr 27, 2014 6:10:14 GMT -6 cadriel said:

I think this review is awful and Isle of the Unknown is one of the under-appreciated products in the RPG scene, though I confess I like Dungeon of the Unknown a bit more because it has the glop generator in it. The review is basically demanding things that a cursory reading of the book's introduction (or more still the longer introduction that you posted here) would have immediately dispelled as not being what the book is about, and manages to pregnant dog about the quality of the chimeric creatures, which I've actually used in games and come across as interesting and fresh encounters as opposed to the same handful of monsters featured in most modules.

The rant at the end about "insult propaganda" comes across as paranoid and psychotic, and I think this review really helps show that the RPGPundit is not worth listening to in anything he says.

Thanks a bunch for the kind words. I'm glad you like the goop generator as much as I do.

[geoffrey]

Apr 27, 2014 5:52:02 GMT -6 Finarvyn said:

Isle of the Unknown is a fine product. It evokes images of the good old days to me, which is probably why newcomers to the industry don't always get it.

It occurs to me that some of the criticisms of Isle of the Unknown stem from the same source as some of the criticisms of Carcosa: An innocent ignorance of non-TSR game products of the 1970s. When Isle of the Unknown is criticized for not including Forgotten Realms-style information, it is not realized that I am writing in the tradition of the old Wilderlands products. When Carcosa was criticized for what happens to some of the sacrifices in sorcerous rituals, it is not realized that I am writing in the tradition of Tekumel. A lot of people's sole experience of 1970s gaming consists of AD&D products from 1977-79. They are innocent of Judges Guild, Arduin, Empire of the Petal Throne, and OD&D. They think I've done something new, when I am actually singing new verses to some old tunes.

I guess that's what happens when you're a niche of a niche of a niche.

[geoffrey]

Apr 27, 2014 7:02:59 GMT -6 derv said:

Maybe any publicity is good publicity?

Definitely. I am also glad that the RPGPundit hated the book rather than merely thought it mediocre. I'd rather get a strong response than "Eh...Whatever."

[geoffrey]

Apr 27, 2014 18:11:33 GMT -6 kent said:

As your group discovered the strange and incongruous things did you attempt to make them cohere, to interpret them, to build some sense for the island from all the randomness or did you let them stand as isolated unknowables?

As a result of their explorations, the players discovered some of the underlying mysteries of the Isle. I don't want to spoil things too badly, so let me just give a few pointers:

1. Why are there 13 [14 if you count the Gemini twins as two] Zodiac mages? Shouldn't there be 12 [13 if you count the Gemini twins as two]?

2. If you plot the locations of the Zodiac mages on a hex map, what do you see?

3. What is the significance of the star Sirius?

4. What is the common factor amongst all the magic statues? Where did they come from? Whom do they really represent? Why do they look like pagan Roman statues?

5. Who are the two divinities who grant powers to clerics? Hint: The good clerics dress like Knights Hospitaller.

6. So who must the evil clerics worship? Uh, huh. And where does Dante say that he resides?

7. Why are the monsters all hostile? What is their origin? Could #6 and #7 have anything in common?

8. Why are most of the monsters chimeric?

9. Isn't it strange that there seems to be no undead on the Isle?

Etc.

There are more layers of intentional design in Isle of the Unknown than there are in Carcosa. Perhaps I can be faulted for being too subtle, though when writing my fear was of being too obvious. Perhaps I overcompensated by being too subtle, but I don't think so. I don't want to bludgeon the referee over the head. I want to give him cool stuff to use. I don't want to tell him how to use it. It's really none of my business how he uses it. I want to tease, to tempt, to suggest, to allude, to make a creative use of implications and silences. I want to arouse the referee's imagination. I don't want to smother it.

Similarly, this is why I have always been reticent about answering questions about Carcosa. There is no Single Ideal Carcosa to which other referees' Carcosas must conform. I tried with Carcosa to lightly sketch (but in lurid colors) a weird world of nightmare. I want to awaken feelings of the weird and of horror and of awe with Carcosa, such that the referee can then use Carcosa to satisfy within himself and his players the deep desire for darkness and the weird.

I shudder to think of rules lawyers or canon lawyers playing their tricks with my books. The books are meant for the opposite use, the use of creative and imaginative referees who basically say when reading my books, "Ah, I see what you're trying to do here. Let me finish all your sentences for you." I never want to effectively tell a referee to sit down and shut up.

[cadriel]

geoffrey, I think you were almost too subtle in your themes here. You seem to be on a different wavelength than a lot of gamers; it's part of why I enjoy your material, but I think a lot of the potential audience misunderstands and overreacts.

It's clear that the chimeric creatures, zodiac magic-users and clerics all follow themes, but the material doesn't draw a lot of clear connections between them. The critics have generally been so thick-headed as to claim that it's all random to the point of being insipid. Personally I like it because it's creative and non-Tolkienesque, and gives me good material for mining (my preference is for a mix of vanilla and weird elements), but since there's no canonical statement of a big "reveal," the Isle's key mystery is essentially left for the referee to present to the players as he likes (if at all). That leaves a lot of people unsatisfied who want a module to, as Gygax put it, do more of their imagining for them.

[robertsconley]

Apr 27, 2014 0:36:42 GMT -6 geoffrey said:

My impression is that RPGPundit does not like the 1970s-style presentation of fantasy wilderness. He seems to prefer the later style that really came into its own with Dragonlance and Forgotten Realms products. Quite a few D&Ders, upon looking at early Wilderlands products, basically ask, "What the devil is this? It's...worthless." They like for most of the connecting and imagining to have been done for them. Personally, I don't care for that sort of thing. I like sketchy, terse encounters with little or no commentary. (It's funny that Isle of the Unknown is actually wordier than Bledsaw.) For example, my favorite city product is Albert Rakowski's Towers of Krshal.

.

While I wouldn't call the Pundit a rabid fan of Wilderlands style hexcrawls, he liked Blackmarsh well enough.

www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=29442

And of my other two review, he really liked Majestic Wilderlands and was meh on Scourge.

Plus he went from criticizing the OSR to writing a OSR product of his own the Arrows of Indra. So there is that as well.

[robertsconley]

Apr 27, 2014 0:36:42 GMT -6 geoffrey said:

I think that most of what he dislikes about Isle of the Unknown is true also of Bob Bledsaw's early Wilderlands products (such as Wilderlands of High Fantasy and Fantastic Wilderlands Beyonde).

And true of Classic Traveller Supplement 3.

In my opinion saying "It just like Bob Bledsaw's Wilderlands" is not a good argument. Because if that all the Isle of the Unknown is, which I know it isn't, then it would be a poor product. You are going to lose the debate if that one of the arguments you are going to use. If you want an effective jab at the Pundit's opinion then explain why the listing of the Isle of the Unknown isn't a random assortment of encounters. How you intended for a group starting out in the westerns hexes to eventually find out what going on in the eastern hexes other than just randomly traversing the map. I know you have an answer of that and that answer would be far more effective than saying "I am just doing like how Bob Bledsaw is doing it thirty years ago."

There is 30+ years between then and now and as much of a fan as I am of Classic Traveller and Judges Guild, we learned a few tricks since then.

We should never follow older formats slavishly, they have both strengths and faults as well. The problem with the original wilderlands and Traveller's original Spinward Marches. Is that they were too terse. Back in the day they had a higher value because the ability to generate dozens of locales was limited. Flashforward thirty we have dozens of options to choose from that can generate hundreds of lines of random material in a few seconds.

In my view a similar product released today has to bring more to table. And the approach I personally took is found in the ruins section of the old Wilderlands. List each locale but with a well written but terse paragraph following it. That is something that using computerized random tables can't give you.

The other things we learned since the mid 2000s that sandbox campaigns need a good initial context in order to be successful. Without the ability to "discover" the players choices amount to a random throw on dartboard. Which renders their choices as meaningful as it is in a referee driven railroad.

Also I have found with all of my books, people react to the terse writing of my books in varying ways a few dislike, more than a few mehs, a lot of likes, and a handful "I think this is the greatest ever". Because it is a distinct part of my product styles it going to attract opinions. Opinions that vary according to taste.

I think what is important that you, Geoffrey, have a distinct vision and styles. And that it comes out in your products. When you do that you are going to get people who are not going to like it.

[kent]

Don't forget anyone who read the RPGpunnet's review on his blog that, as a matter of honour, you must make a donation, the prominent button for which you will find at the top of his blog margin. The minimum donation he is currently accepting is $30 but if you found the review to be especially stimulating you can give him $500. It is not exactly that he wants to cash in on his accidental sharking up of a bunch of pratts on his forum, it is something else entirely that I can't quite remember just at the moment ...

[skars]

Apr 27, 2014 0:36:42 GMT -6 geoffrey said:

Here is his review: therpgpundit.blogspot.com/2014/04/rpgpundit-reviews-isle-of-unknown.html


It is not true that Isle of the Unknown does not have important NPCs. There are dozens of them. I followed Gary Gygax's B2: The Keep on the Borderlands in not naming the NPCs. I did this for two reasons: 1) I like the Tarot-card-like quality of mystery that "The Castellan" has as opposed to "Krikdor [or whatever] the Castellan"; and 2) I tend to dislike most of the names in FRPG products, and I suspect that most people would dislike any fantasy names that I might have put in Isle of the Unknown. Each referee has his own distinctive ideas for nomenclature.

What, no names like "Fonkin Hoddypeak" or "Roaky Swerked" (ala G1) for the Isle?

I have personally had a great time with the Isle and populating portions with my own creations or merging with other publications. This was my first rpgpundit review, I guess shockingly, I had also never heard of " FtA!GN!" (whatever that is) or any of his publications. Oh well.

[geoffrey]

Apr 27, 2014 8:55:04 GMT -6 kent said:

You, perhaps, have been moved to care about these gamers because, as someone who has published, you are sensitive to volume of sales.

I missed this earlier.

What I care about far more than sales is the "culture", so to speak. I wish that game stores today were like they were in the 1970s. I wish the products were all in the general style of 1970s TSR, Judges Guild, Arduin, etc. The vast majority of products sold today leave me utterly cold. If a genie gave me the following option, I'd take it in a heartbeat: "Geoffrey, you can have your wish for the RPG culture. It will remain this way for the next 100 years. The price, however, is that you can never again make even a single penny in profit from RPG products."

[bryce0lynch]

Apr 27, 2014 0:36:42 GMT -6 geoffrey said:

Here is his review: therpgpundit.blogspot.com/2014/04/rpgpundit-reviews-isle-of-unknown.html

I think that most of what he dislikes about Isle of the Unknown is true also of Bob Bledsaw's early Wilderlands products (such as Wilderlands of High Fantasy and Fantastic Wilderlands Beyonde). For example, the reviewer writes:

Not quite fair G.

Most of the more negative reviews of Isle have noted a certain lack of cohesion/context/action. This includes my own. A supplement must be more than a collection of random rolls on the (hybrid monster" or "weird wizard" or "strange statue" table. The designer must bring more to them in order to provide the pretext to adventure. There needs to be some action or intrigue, explicit or implicit, in order to hook and engage on. In that regard Isle DOES fall short of several other examples, including Wilderlands. An extra sentence, per entry, to provide something of that sort would have catapulted Isle in to a legendary status.

And I AM an old school guy.

[robertsconley]

Apr 28, 2014 9:06:07 GMT -6 kent said:

Yes, but you can't learn to be intelligent and imaginative

What a load of elitist crap.

Apr 28, 2014 9:06:07 GMT -6 kent said:

You could of course have learned ... grammar ... if you weren't spending so much time making and dressing up in giant doll outfits.

Yes you would have think that decades after having left college and close to six years of actively writing that my grammar would be better. I suppose I should have never tried in the first place because after all I am learning disabled in language skills. Something to do with whatever burned out half of my hearing when I was six. Then my readers wouldn't be subjected to strange word substitutions, transpositions and the countless other grammar weirdness I am known for.

Despite the hassle of my disability, I am better off for experiencing it. While learning disabled in language, I scored 95% percentile in just about every other subject and had a scholarship to college because of that.

So growing up I had a foot in advanced classes and a foot among those with various learning disabilities. And you know what I learned?

That intelligence is not a single score. It is a composite of many different things. That what distinguishes the challenged from gifted is speed, and desire. Anybody can learn anything if they have the desire and willing to put the time into it. Unfortunately for some the time needed is very long. But there are those who managed to overcome that.

So you can take your elitist crap, wrap it up and shove it up your ass as far as it will go.

As for me I am under no illusion about my grammar skills and enlist help whenever I can and whenever it offered.

As for you Kent, have the courage of your convictions. I give you the same challenge I did to the Pundit. Write your own book, publish it, show the rest of us how it can be done.

The Pundit has his faults but to his credit he wrote and got Arrows of Indra published. Perhaps it time for you to do the same.

[benoist]

Oh yes. I'd love to see Kent put his fingers where his mouth is (no, not his rectum) and actually get to work on his own supplement. Anyone who's ever written some published material will be able to tell you that there's a world of difference between "here are a bunch of maps and it's creative and intelligent and awesome, all in my head!" and actually translating that into something that can be intelligibly used and spun by others into their own games.

So go ahead, Kent. I loved some of the notes and isometric maps and all those bits and pieces you shared on your blog. Do something with it, please.

[geoffrey]

Apr 28, 2014 10:59:57 GMT -6 bryce0lynch said:

There needs to be some action or intrigue, explicit or implicit, in order to hook and engage on. In that regard Isle DOES fall short of several other examples, including Wilderlands. An extra sentence, per entry, to provide something of that sort would have catapulted Isle in to a legendary status.

Thank you for the kind words. I'm afraid I have to disagree with you regarding Bledsaw's Wilderlands of High Fantasy. I encourage anyone who has it to peruse the hex encounters contained therein. Here are ten representative ones from pages 9 through 11:

1104 Contaminated Rock Covered Cottage on a Slope--39 RATS

1212 Corroded Engraving--3 ZOMBIES

2128 Partially Sunken Defaced Statue--3 PHASE SPIDERS

0920 Citadel: 5th-level, LE illusionist with 50 men

4134 Isle of Ogigian-Large Statue of Neptune pointing north.

0402 Dire Wolves 12

1625 Giant Snakes 3

3124 Owl Bears 3

0410 Village named Ruti, 556 Elfs live there. It is a level 4 civilization and is LG and produces copper. It is ruled by Hriand, a 5th-level LE fighter.

1601 Partially Covered with Earth God Totem-4 STIRGIES

For my money, that stuff is awesome. It is 70s gold. I read this sort of thing, and my imagination is moved. I see misted mountains and deep forests in my mind's eye. My imagination is already starting to make connections, and this is a big part of the fun. I'm a pontifical and sovereign Judge, creating by whim; rather than a passive consumer of product. I'm ready to referee a D&D game! Contrast that with the thick verbiage of most later RPG products, virtually all of which leave me cold.

Now, if I were to apply the RPGPundit's preferences to the above hexes, I might say, "What is this stuff? Was it rolled on random generators? It's just a bunch of disconnected garbage thrown on the page. Where are the personalities? Where are the motivations? Where are the connections? Why are there 3 giant snakes in hex 1625? Apparently just for the hell of it. Why should players care? What is a referee supposed to do with that? It doesn't even tell us what kind of giant snakes they are, nor any of their stats. Do they guard treasure? The author was too lazy to do his job here. He couldn't be bothered to do more than sleepily write "giant snakes 3". Next hex! How about 1212? What is the corroded engraving of? We don't know, because the author doesn't tell us. More laziness and lack of imagination. That citadel in hex 0920 sure is nice. We don't know the first thing about that LE illusionist. Why is he there? What does he want? What is his connection with surrounding hexes? (Hell, with ANY hexes?) And what kind of insanity is a lawful good village of over 500 elves doing with a lawful evil ruler--who is only 5th level? Why not kill him and be ruled by a LG elf? It doesn't say. It doesn't say much of anything. It's just a bunch of crap that a drug-addled teenager could come up with in 2 minutes. No motivations. No organizations. No connecting details. Nothing. Just...drivel."

The cardinal difference between Isle of the Unknown's hexes and these representative hexes is that Isle typically goes into more detail. If Isle had the same level of terse detail, it would have a mere fraction of its actual page count.

Now, anyone is perfectly at liberty to not like Isle of the Unknown. My point is that it is obvious that the majority of the RPGPundit's criticisms of Isle apply even more so to Bob Bledsaw's 1977 Wilderlands of High Fantasy book. Thus my conclusion that the RPGPundit has a significantly different taste in RPG products than I do. I try to write in the tradition of 1970s OD&D, EPT, Judges Guild, and Arduin. With his emphasis on wanting things to be more spelled-out and more focused on NPCs' interior attitudes, I think it obvious that he more likes the sort of thing that I first became aware of in the Dragonlance products, and which really came into its own with the Forgotten Realms products. And that is fine. Goodness knows that far more people like Forgotten Realms than Bledsaw's Wilderlands. Relatively few even know about Bledsaw, and many would have similar reactions to Bledsaw's Wilderlands as the RPGPundit does to Isle of the Unknown.

I hope I'm not coming across as combative. That's not my intention at all. If I nonetheless am, I apologize. I am only trying to underscore what to me is obvious: Most of what RPGPundit considers "faults" are the norm in pre-AD&D FRPG products. I consider them features.

[Deleted]

Even though I haven't yet purchased Isle of the Unknown from what I've read about it's presentation is that it is not a setting that is entirely playable right out of the gate (though I suppose one could try for a seat of your pants experience). Instead the setting contained within is purposefully designed in such a way that DMs have the opportunity to transform the sparse details into something that which is their own. I feel this is a great modular sandbox setting that allows for limitless variety from game to game. Heck I feel that even if a group had successfully traversed the isle in one campaign, they could still visit the isle during another game and have it be a completely new experience (the DM simply needs to dedicate some time rearranging several of the hex locations and details to freshen thing up). I would also say that this setting is best suited for a preplanned future excursion in which the DM has sufficient time to prepare the Isle so it fits in with their current campaign.  

[kent]

Apr 28, 2014 11:49:23 GMT -6 robertsconley said:

Apr 28, 2014 9:06:07 GMT -6 kent said:

Yes, but you can't learn to be intelligent and imaginative

What a load of elitist crap.

Take it easy Bobby, no need for the autobiography. Your avatar invites levity.

Apr 28, 2014 12:11:33 GMT -6 benoist said:

So go ahead, Kent ... Do something with it

Well this is where I agree with Geoffrey's criticism or distancing of the prevailing culture. The only reason people publish is to take a headcount of the degree of interest, to measure the popularity of their ideas. There is no audience for what I have to say, I learned this the first time I rubbished modules on a forum, and I don't care to make the effort to persuade against ingrained tastes.

Of course one can only learn how worthwhile one's own ideas are from a third party, just not through headcounts - +1s - thumbs up - or any number of forum "I liked it !!", but through insightful reviews and I don't think the tiny population of gamers provides those reviewers.

[rpgpundit]

Geoffrey, your arguments are patently absurd. You sir are no Bob Bledsaw.

But why don't you have the guts to come to theRPGsite to hash this out, where there's no fear of moderator intervention?


In any case, your comparisons are ridiculous. Anyone who knows me knows that I can't stand dragonlance, and your attempts to garner sympathy here by painting me as a late-2e "not a real old schooler" is cheap bullnuts. As for gonzo? I OWN Gonzo. Again, a cursory glance at my blog and at what I've published would confirm that.

As for your latest argument, trying to compare your entries to the ones in Wilderlands, there's a crucial difference: Wilderlands' deals in archetypal creatures and environs. You're absolutely right that his one-liners are evocative, because we all ALREADY KNOW what Dire Wolves and owlbears are about. We can already figure out what the point of giant snakes are. And we are left to fill in with our own imagination the reason why a LE guy would be in charge of a town of LG elves (because alignment already means something).

All of these things do not require further elaboration.

Your garbage, on the other hand, was just an island full of one-time mutations that make no sense and have no point. Bledsaw's one-liners cover everything that's needed. Your three sentence entries are woefully inadequate, on the other hand, because there's no coherence to any of what you've done. Incoherent monsters in an incoherent environment that have no coherent versimilitude.

I didn't dislike your product because it was "too old school", a cursory glance at any of my stirring reviews of a plethora of other old-school books (just go to www.therpgsite.com and check out the Reviews section!) would prove that. I gave your book a bad review because it IS BAD. It is badly written. Its not drivel because I'm a mean old dragonlance fan who doesn't understand gonzo (a quick glance at my blog and the various DCC campaign updates would show what a crock of bull that is), your book is drivel BECAUSE IT IS DRIVEL.

You did a nuts job, sir. Your book is garbage. And the thought that you imagine yourself standing on the shoulders of Gygax or Bledsaw when all you've done is fundamentally miss the point, and created a Potemkin Village of a Sandbox (just a shallow facade while missing absolutely everything that's important about making a sandbox work) just makes you laughable. Or pitiable. I'm not sure which.

[benoist]

Apr 28, 2014 14:16:34 GMT -6 kent said:

Apr 28, 2014 12:11:33 GMT -6 benoist said:

So go ahead, Kent ... Do something with it

Well this is where I agree with Geoffrey's criticism or distancing of the prevailing culture. The only reason people publish is to take a headcount of the degree of interest, to measure the popularity of their ideas. There is no audience for what I have to say, I learned this the first time I rubbished modules on a forum, and I don't care to make the effort to persuade against ingrained tastes.

Of course one can only learn how worthwhile one's own ideas are from a third party, just not through headcounts - +1s - thumbs up - or any number of forum "I liked it !!", but through insightful reviews and I don't think the tiny population of gamers provides those reviewers.

I see it as a completely different ball park, regardless of the "likes" or sales you are getting. I've done both now, and from my perspective, presenting one's ideas of a campaign through posts here and there on blogs and forums is one thing, but to structure these ideas, fill the gaps and present the whole in a way that seems to make sense, that is consistent and can do its job not only teaching how to run the thing straight, but to grab the material and run it as one's own, is yet another thing.

Note: it's got nothing to do with the number of sales or "hails" in my mind. If your thing is great and coherent and creative, it might still not please a great number of people, maybe because the zeitgeist is in a different place right now, or you're trying to persuade against ingrained tastes, as you put it. How many copies you sell and how many fans you've got has nothing to do with that. I think it's VERY easy to criticize and call people unimaginative, or dumb, without having done the latter yourself. Maybe if you actually gave it a shot, you'd realize there's more to this challenge than meets the eye. Right now, you're just taking pot shots from the side lines, Kent. That's a waste of time (at best). THIS, is really my point.

[kent]

Apr 28, 2014 15:18:10 GMT -6 benoist said:

Note: it's got nothing to do with the number of sales or "hails" in my mind. If your thing is great and coherent and creative, it might still not please a great number of people, maybe because the zeitgeist is in a different place right now, or you're trying to persuade against ingrained tastes, as you put it. How many copies you sell and how many fans you've got has nothing to do with that. I think it's VERY easy to criticize and call people unimaginative, or dumb, without having done the latter yourself. Maybe if you actually gave it a shot, you'd realize there's more to this challenge than meets the eye. Right now, you're just taking pot shots from the side lines, Kent. That's a waste of time. THIS, is really my point.

We agree that a writer needs independent appreciation to believe his work is worthwhile. Above you say, "it's got nothing to do with the number of sales or "hails" in my mind". And I have said the population is too small to provide insightful reviewers. So what form of evaluation is left to make the effort of presenting ideas worthwhile?

[geoffrey]

Apr 28, 2014 15:02:01 GMT -6 rpgpundit said:

But why don't you have the guts to come to theRPGsite to hash this out, where there's no fear of moderator intervention?

I will decline your offer to discuss things on your site. I play games and have fun talking about them. I do not like to fight over them. This girl's words made an impression on me:
www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=39130