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Post by librarylass on Jan 27, 2014 5:46:50 GMT -6
Maybe it's just my latecomer roots, but the old percentile thief skill system never quite... clicked for me. What alternatives are out there? For my latest game I'm trying a free-form "good at/expert at" thing with a d20 roll and a +2/+4 bonus respectively, with Thieves starting out as experts at the usual thief skills, but I'm not sure if that's the best way. Before that I was rolling around a d6 thing inspired by how Lamentations of the Flame Princess handles things, but I found myself struggling to keep from making a skill list that seemed excessively large. So I'd like to hear how other people have tinkered with the idea.
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Post by waysoftheearth on Jan 27, 2014 5:51:58 GMT -6
The Delving Deeper thief could be exactly what you need It very simply has a 4/6 chance to perform any deed/feat/act of subterfuge. That's it. There's also the so-called "box man" which has a list of abilities similar to a M-U's list of spell. The box man is thought to predate (and to have inspired) EGG's original percentile based thief -- you can read some discussion of the history, as well as some recent attempts to "re-invent" the box-man here.
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Post by Finarvyn on Jan 27, 2014 6:12:00 GMT -6
I redid the thief charts from percentile to d20, then took the numbers and made them plusses so that d20+bonus tries to equal or beat 20. Pretty simple. I'll have to search for that chart.
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Post by Finarvyn on Jan 27, 2014 6:32:00 GMT -6
Okay, here it is for whatever it's worth. The first table has thief level and level name and "thief action" which is the bonus to anything a thief might want to do. Roll a d20, add the bonus, add the racial bonus, equal or beat a 20. Level, Name, Thief Action 1 Apprentice +0 2 Footpad +1 3 Robber +2 4 Burglar +4 5 Cutpurse +5 6 Sharper +6 7 Pilferer +8 8 Master Pilferer +10 9 Thief +12 10 Master Thief +14 11 Master Thief +16 12 Master Thief +16 13 Master Thief +17 14 Master Thief +17 Thief Action Dwarf Elf Hobbit Human Remove Traps +5 +3 +3 +2 Open Locks +4 +3 +5 +3 Move Silently +5 +6 +6 +4 Hide In Shadows +4 +6 +5 +3 Pickpocket +4 +5 +5 +4 Hear Noise +1 +1 +4 +1 Would look a lot nicer in table form. Here it is in PDF form, if that helps. Finarvyns Thief Class.pdf (14.69 KB)
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Post by bestialwarlust on Jan 27, 2014 8:30:14 GMT -6
I'll put in a second vote for the Delving Deeper thief. It stays in line with the skills already listed in OD&D.
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Post by Red Baron on Jan 27, 2014 9:01:26 GMT -6
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Post by sepulchre on Jan 27, 2014 9:11:19 GMT -6
librarylass: The granularity of the percentile system really is about 'skills'. This rubs against the fundamental abstraction of the game: classes are described in terms of abilities not skills and the dice tend toward a leaner probability spread and thus allow for less modification, that is less granularity. That tension is there because of the switch from a wargame concept to an rpg concept. While it is tempting to leave room for the unexpected by using the percentile dice, 'lots of weird counter-intuitive results from percentile skill systems are the result'. The D20 spread from the alternate combat system is the core mechanic in skill system in the later AD&D publication, Oriental Adventures. It's a question of how necessary the abilities of a class need a probablity range that is open to situational modifiers, but that is also a question of ability vs. skill.
Conceptually, I think you correct in considering the expression of a thief in terms of skills. One of the arguments against the class is the core expressions of the thief are mundane, knowledge that any 'normal man' (see Chainmail and OD&D) could acquire.
A cardinal difficulty with thieves is their "special abilities" all being mundane.- geoffrey(http://odd74.proboards76.com/index.cgi?board=menmagic&action=display&thread=329&page=6)
The design element of abilities themselves ideally is abstraction, shape your skill list into a set of core abilities that reflect the essential expression of the thief in the game. By the 'game' I mean, what the thief does in the dungeon, e.g. look at the 'dungeon key' (opening doors, searching for concealed or secret doors, finding traps etc.). NOTE: the thief may be more appropriate as a hireling (0-lvl) or race (see brigand) than a character class.
You are mistaking how I play OD&D for OAD&D. In the original D&D game there was no thief class, and the traps were not as frequent or complex. A 10' pole in cautious hands and a dwarf PC were usualy sufficient to spot most of them – Gary Gygax (http://www.enworld.org/forum/archive-threads/125997-gary-gygax-q-part-ix-40.html#post2332482)
I believe Gary once said that Thieves were originally intended primarily as henchmen rather than PCs. They were specialists you brought with you if there were a particularly nasty trap you could disable on your own, but they weren't the stuff from which heroes were made. – jamesm (http://odd74.proboards76.com/index.cgi?board=menmagic&action=display&thread=329&page=3)
redbaron wrote:
I share the affinity with a slight alteration -
Any lightly armored character: Stealth: agreed, surprise is the issue. Perception: agreed, surprise is the issue. Sneak attack: again surprise is the issue. Echoing Joe Mac, 'see no good reason a thief should be physically better at killing from behind - he just has a much easier time getting there' (http://odd74.proboards.com/thread/329?page=3#page=4) climbing: 4in6 is fair, I would probably translate a few surface modifiers in the DMG and lighting conditions into a d6 spread. Given that I would favor rope, grappling hook and/or spider harness, or take the stairs...I think it's important that castle and city walls really are a formidable challenge to the designs of PCs. Pick pockets: instead of a save vs. paralyzation, apply the surprise dice.
open locks: echoing Philotomy, most locks in a dark age/medieval setting will be crude (1in6/open doors or normal chances with a locksmith hireling if able to be persuaded to go into a dungeon), or no lock at all - door or window is barred [Three rolls of 2in6/barred door (22 Q1), three rolls of 1in6/ barred door (17 B2)] - possibly chained, requiring a total of 6 rolls. The issue is how many turns, and how much noise it will require to gain passage through a door. With regard to locks, time is the factor - being limited to 1-4rds (see DMG), a turn for more complex mechanisms, and dicing a 1d6 a roll of 6 indicating the lock is fouled and no further attempt may be made. The tried-and-true approach - get hold of the keys from one of the place's inhabitants or if all else fails hacking the door to pieces [each die of damage of 4 or more yields 1 structural pt. and making sure to include 3 wandering monsters chks. over the period of a turn (97 AD&D DMG)]. Otherwise, hauling a treasure chest for example back into town or city for a locksmith to address. Dwaynu touches on this in that a thief/locksmith is now on site instead of outside the dungeon, adventures were less likely to haul out a chest filled with coppers, and the dungeon environment altered to 'protect the niche' of the thief...'dungeon doors formerly just stuck became locked, The "Remove Traps" roll got applied to things besides treasure chests, and traps tended to function reliably (not just 1/3 of the time)'. (http://odd74.proboards.com/thread/329?page=3#page=4)
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Post by Red Baron on Jan 27, 2014 9:49:14 GMT -6
Heres my thoughts. (Excuse the long and poorly edited post)
A thief should be just that, a thief. He steals from people, has a lot of connections, and knows how to scope out a building before a heist. He is the same as a magic user in respects to hit dice, combat, and armor (ie. no armor).
The thief shouldn't have enumerated abilities that he checks on, or at least he shouldn't have abilities that are just a better version of what adventurers can already do. This discourages stealth for other classes, as they think, "I'm just not very good at this, I shouldn't be sneaking".
In other words, his special abilities should be different from what the fighting man or wizard should be able to do. Going back to that first link, I tried to lay out what these things were that an adventurer, of any class, can do:
Climb walls: This is a biggun'. Conan climbs about everything he lays eyes on. Sneak & Hide: Fafhrd and the Mouser hide in the woods, behind the curtain in the thieve's house, and in the dark alleyways of the bazaar of the bizarre. Everyone should be sneaking through the shadows and hiding behind statues or pillars as the procession of cultists march past. Perception: everyone has eyes and ears. Find/remove traps: This skill is stupid because it take away from players manually talking through how to get around a trap. Give a thief a bonus save against poison and death instead in case he does screw up. Sneak attack: In any good swords and sorcery game, everyone should be able sneak up and cut a throat.
To quote myself in an earlier thread explaining why everyone should be able to do these things, "Subterfuge encourages creative play and a variety of alternate solutions to problems". And I'll automatically allow subterfuge to work as long as it makes sense situationally. Of course someone will hear a noise and come to investigate, but then a mouse will scramble across the room and the bad guy investigator will shrug and go back to what he was doing.
When people who aren't thieves want to be sneaky, the result is that we see a lot of overlap, where people's stealthy homebrewed fighters like rangers and barbarians are given thief skills. This makes the thief feel his territory is being infringed on and that he's useless, and also adds all types of needless complexity when anyone should be able to be a stealthy guy. the solution is to take away all those dumb thief powers so that the thief doesn't have any territory for others to take away.
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Post by Red Baron on Jan 27, 2014 9:51:15 GMT -6
So what can the thief alone do? Pick pockets. That's it. Plus of course anything else that everyone can already do. Ammending what I've said in the past "When your [thief] smashes down a stuck door, why not instead describe your roll as pulling the hood over your lantern, oiling the hinges, and trying to slide out the bolt that attaches them to the door. You still have the same 2/6 chance of getting the door open on your roll to open doors, only now it has a thiefy flavor about it." Thieves aren't disadvantaged, because they are the baseline.
90% of anyone heading down into the dungeon is a thief. 90% of anyone heading down into the dungeon is a thief. Who opens old crypts? Grave-robbers do. Fighting men and wizards are the powerful "specialty classes" that people can take (they can require a 12 in intelligence or strength). All three of these guys are thieves
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jacar
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Posts: 345
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Post by jacar on Jan 27, 2014 9:54:04 GMT -6
The Delving Deeper thief could be exactly what you need It very simply has a 4/6 chance to perform any deed/feat/act of subterfuge. That's it. There's also the so-called "box man" which has a list of abilities similar to a M-U's list of spell. The box man is thought to predate (and to have inspired) EGG's original percentile based thief -- you can read some discussion of the history, as well as some recent attempts to "re-invent" the box-man here. I had considered doing something similar to this. I wanted to make the D6 check based on level and the various skills would improve as the thief leveled. It stays in line with other search and hear noise checks.
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Post by sepulchre on Jan 27, 2014 10:25:10 GMT -6
Jacar: The more reason it makes sense to describe these skills as hieghtened but static racial abilities (e.g. see dwarf)centered around the 'dungeon key'.
redbaron wrote: Yep and a 'skill' that is rarely employed in a game...too risky at low levels and at cross purposes with dungeon exploration. Should it be useful, roll for surprise with a 3in6 chance [see ranger's hieghtened surprise as an example of a ceiling for class or racial ability (demi-human have capped d6 abilities)].
Brilliant...and well-placed image.
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Post by talysman on Jan 27, 2014 14:04:54 GMT -6
As I'm sure Gronan will attest, the thief skills originally weren't supposed to be mundane. For example, any adventurer can climb, with a rope and grapnel, for example; but a thief can climb sheer surfaces without equipment. Maybe anyone can try to pick a lock, and a locksmith hireling might have a better chance, but thieves can open "magical closures" (the wording in Greyhawk.)
This idea of the thief as being more than mundane, combined with JB's ideas of doing away with thief skill rolls (on the first B/X Blackrazor link, above,) might be the best bet. For stealth, the level of the observer matters; for picking pockets, the level of the victim matters, with most ordinary citizens being effectively Level 0. For traps and locks, above ground (mundane) examples are Level 0, those in dungeons have a level = dungeon level.
Ordinary adventurer: roll 5+ on 1d6, or 1-2 on 1d6, or whichever procedure you prefer. When climbing (with gear,) only roll when climbing fast or very high. Trained adventurer (Secondary Skill is locksmith, etc.): +2 on roll or 4 in 6, or otherwise double chance of success. Thief Level > Level of trap, lock, or victim: Automatic. Thief Level = Target Level: +2 or 4 in 6 or double chance of success (as Trained Adventurer) Thief Level < Target Level: Ordinary chance of success.
Plus, thieves can specifically deal with magical locks/traps, climb quickly without gear, and hide in nothing but shadows, unlike either trained or ordinary adventurers.
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Post by sepulchre on Jan 27, 2014 14:27:25 GMT -6
Talysman wrote: Surprise accomplishes the same end, without having to address fiddly percentages which is at cross purposes with the d6 mechanic of the surprise dice that already addresses remaining unnoticed.
True, but you can accomplish the same end with surprise dice (see PHB description having to do with going unnoticed). This is a fair D6 application, I think you can handle locks and traps, as I described above, without needing trap and target levels. A thief hireling with a flat d6 chance modified by particular circumstances (say surface quality/climbing walls etc) can be handled without resorting to levels at all. All of these skills are really better fitted to the working Dungeon Key. Like the man-racial types, have an urban counterpart to the brigand - thief, with thief skills that are actually static but hieghtened racial abilities. Wanted to also mention there is a great seen in Robin and Marian (Robin Hood) with two fighting men (Sean Connery and Nicol Williamson) scaling the wall of a gatehouse.
No reason to base a class on this, keys, magic items and knock spells handle enchanted doors.
There in nothing out of the ordinary about hiding in shadow, it can't be achieved by ordinary adventurers or 'thieves' without the presence of a shadow, so the shadow is what makes it possible; the effect is an increased chance to surprise, handling it as a racial ability that modifies surprise gets to the heart of the matter, and the only pre-requisite becomes the character's intent and how encumbered they may be. A thief racial type/hireling would hide in shadows like a ranger surprises in his natural environment, while a other PC's (PC's can have a racial character btw, I have fighting men who are racially fanatic like the dervish) have a normal chance to surprise.
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Azafuse
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Posts: 245
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Post by Azafuse on Jan 27, 2014 14:42:45 GMT -6
My silly solution is the following: rolling for Wandering Monsters (Vol. 3).
Wanna open a locked door? Thieves do that in a blink, and they don't trigger the die roll. Other classes suck at it, and they trigger the die roll (even if the action requires less than 1 turn).
Wanna hide in shadows? Same as above.
Wanna make the job trickier? Thieves trigger an encounter with a 6 (or with a 6 followed by a 5 on a second roll), other classes with 5+.
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Post by Red Baron on Jan 27, 2014 14:45:57 GMT -6
I'm in favor of replacing all their abilities with new ones.
in addition to picking pockets thieves can:
at 1st level: spot secret doors as an elf (in exclusively human games) at 2nd level: move/fight in darkness at no penalty (a incentive to take out enemy torches) at 3rd level: see invisibility
These all complement a thief's ability to do sneaky stuff, without stomping on the ability of other classes to be tricksy.
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Post by talysman on Jan 27, 2014 14:50:23 GMT -6
Talysman wrote: Surprise accomplishes the same end, without having to address fiddly percentages which is at cross purposes with the d6 mechanic of the surprise dice that already addresses remaining unnoticed. True, but you can accomplish the same end with surprise dice (see PHB description having to do with going unnoticed). But that's what I'm proposing, basically; 5+ on 1d6 is identical odds to 1-2 on 1d6, which is the standard surprise roll. So, what I proposed was, basically, keeping the surprise roll for standard adventurers, but extending it to things like picking pockets, and doubling the chances for those with appropriate mundane training, while making thieves automatically succeed on mundane stuff. This seems to fit with what librarylass is looking for: something that isn't a standard skill system and that doesn't make PC thieves feel like mundane professionals. The level comparisons I suggest are also there to keep the thief on the "more than ordinary" level. A standard adventurer can pick a pocket or sneak up on a victim or even try to pick a lock, but will never be better than a certain level. A thief will avoid rolling for an increasingly large number of situations. And making lock/trap level equal to dungeon level avoids the need to write anything special down, avoiding unnecessary bookkeeping. No reason to base a class on this, keys, magic items and knock spells handle enchanted doors. There in nothing out of the ordinary about hiding in shadow, it can't achieved by ordinary adventurers or 'thieves' without the presence of a shadow, so the shadow is what makes it possible; the effect is an increased chance to surprise, handling it as a racial ability that modifies surprise gets to the heart of the matter, and the only pre-requisite becomes the character's intent and how encumbered they may be. As I said, there's already a class that can open magical locks: the thief, by the book, according to both Greyhawk and AD&D. I'm not adding anything to the game, there. And I think you and I have different ideas about what hide in shadows means, because I'm thinking of cases where the thief is hiding in nothing but shadows, rather than behind something cloaked in shadow. Perhaps even standing a few feet away from someone and escaping notice completely.
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Post by talysman on Jan 27, 2014 15:10:03 GMT -6
I'm in favor of replacing all their abilities with new ones. in addition to picking pockets thieves can: at 1st level: spot secret doors as an elf (in exclusively human games) at 2nd level: move/fight in darkness at no penalty (a incentive to take out enemy torches) at 3rd level: see invisibility These all complement a thief's ability to do sneaky stuff, without stomping on the ability of other classes to be tricksy. I once proposed "Secrets" of Thievery, gained by thieves at the 4th level (heroic secrets) and 7th or 8th level (superheroic secrets.) You could move the heroic secrets up to 1st level and make the superheroic secrets 5th level abilities, making thieves *really* distinct from thieving adventurers... The School of Cunning (instinctive, heightened awareness)Heroic Secret: Hear a faint heartbeat when passing close to a concealed living being (eliminates some surprise attacks.) Superheroic Secret: Hear a whisper anywhere in the same building or level, if thief is absolutely silent. The School of Subtlety (stealth and sleight of hand)Heroic Secret: Steal an item right out of an enemy’s hand. Superheroic Secret: Vanish into shadows even while being observed. The School of Manipulation (knowledge of devices)Heroic Secret: Pick any mechanical lock without tools. Superheroic Secret: Remove small magical traps with mundane tools. (The "school" stuff is included if you want to do away with the thief class entirely and make these abilities something any class could pick up in-game.)
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Post by Zenopus on Jan 27, 2014 19:41:10 GMT -6
Some perhaps useful tables I posted previously in the thread, "Reconciling Thief Skills with the 3LBBs"Greyhawk table converted to d6 rolls: Accelerated advancement, where chance in d6 = level (easy to remember): Thieves' skills as Saving Throws (roll over listed score on a d20):
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Post by librarylass on Jan 28, 2014 1:42:45 GMT -6
Goodness, this place usually moves so slowly I didn't expect such an outpouring of information. I've got some things to investigate now.
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Post by krusader74 on Jan 28, 2014 5:18:41 GMT -6
I use the 3 LBBs only. No thief class. But PCs can thieve and scam to their heart's content. Instead of "skill checks," I basically use the "ability check" method outlined in "The Halls of Beoll-Dur" adventure, printed in The Dragon #41, Vol. V., No. 3 September 1980. If you're unfamiliar with this technique, check out page 8 of Aher's " A Brief History of Ability Checks in Dungeons & Dragons". The method is where N=3 for average tasks, N=4 for hard tasks, and N=5 for nearly impossible tasks. (I average over any applicable ability scores, as described on page 10 in the discussion of Katharine Kerr's article in Dragon #68.) ExamplesHere's a 1st level LLB D&D Fighter, randomly generated (at this great website): STR: 11 INT: 11 WIS: 7 DEX: 13 CON: 9 CHA: 14 1. She wants to climb a rope. This is an average task that depends mostly on upper body strength (STR 11), so the roll is: 3d6 ≤ 11. 2. Next, she must climb a wall, but it's slick, covered with some kind of slippery slimey mold. This is a hard task that depends equally on STR and DEX, so the roll is 4d6 ≤ 12 = (11+13)/2. 3. She runs the " Romance scam" on a rich prince she meets at the masked ball. She needs a little cash to get home to Latveria... The prince is young and inexperienced and the amount is relatively small, so this is an easy task vs CHA. The roll is 3d6 ≤ 14. 4. Next she tries to run the " Pig-in-a-poke scam" on a seasoned merchant, and he's about to "let the cat out of the bag." But that's OK. She and her MU partner found a scroll with the 5th level Teleport spell (Men and Magic, p. 28) during their last dungeon crawl. He quickly teleports Homer Zuckerman's prize pig Wilbur into the bag as the merchant opens it. Nice save. No rolls required.
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Post by Finarvyn on Jan 28, 2014 6:36:37 GMT -6
Goodness, this place usually moves so slowly I didn't expect such an outpouring of information. I've got some things to investigate now. Yeah, but you picked a topic that hadn't been beaten to death recently. That's bound to inspire posters.
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Post by Lord Kilgore on Jan 28, 2014 17:59:04 GMT -6
I've looked at this a few times for various systems, having never really cared for the d% or the numbers themselves all that much. One thing we were going to do for Swords & Wizardry White Box (so fairly OD&D-ish) was to make thieving an "add-on" to regular classes. We defined thief-like actions for everyone and then defined how a character who was also a thief would advance: www.lordkilgore.com/white-box-thievery-2nd-draftWe didn't actually use it in play very much, so I can't say how it holds up over time. For Labyrinth Lord (B/X clone) I changed thief skills to d12, because it could tie in directly to standard x-in-6 d6 rolls, only with finer granularity: www.lordkilgore.com/d12-thief-skills-updatedNeither of these address the question about exactly what are and how to handle "thief skills," but I toss them out for consideration.
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Post by kesher on Jan 30, 2014 15:07:03 GMT -6
Thief w/o skills = adventurer. sepulchre: Awesome. Never quite thought about it that way before...
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Post by kesher on Jan 31, 2014 8:44:58 GMT -6
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Post by oakesspalding on Feb 1, 2014 1:26:16 GMT -6
Give him a few extra abilities that he can do without a check-attacking by surprise, hiding in shadows-and limit his armor wearing-which will make him the go to guy for, well, things you can only do without armor-sneaking, climbing-and, Voila! a Thief. Rolls for skills-whether based on abilities or level or just class-fuss things up and send the wrong message. As has been noted, the original "Boxman" was an NPC. Turning him into a PC opened a Pandora's box.
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Post by philotomy on Feb 1, 2014 1:36:32 GMT -6
I posted an alternate take on the Thief to various boards a few years ago. Here its; www.therpgsite.com/showpost.php?p=281470&postcount=6Level/HD/Attacks as Supplement I Thief Stealth - When actively sneaking or hiding, the Thief gets +1 to surprise (e.g. instead of a standard 2:6 chance of surprise, the Thief gets a 3:6 chance of surprise). At level 9, this increases to +2 to surprise. (Note that a group uses the surprise chance of the least stealthy group member.) Perceptive - The Thief is only surprised on a 1:6, rather than the standard 2:6. He can detect secret doors on a roll of 1-3. When listening, he hears noises on a roll of 1-2. At level 6, his ability to hear noises improves to 3-6. Mechanical Manipulation - With proper tools, the Thief has a chance of opening mechanical locks without damaging them, or of removing or disabling small mechanical traps, like spring-loaded poison needles and the like. (Note that traps can also be disabled or bypassed with other precautions, described in-play.) His chances to do so are as follows: Level 1-4 = 2 in 6 (roll 1-2 on 1d6) Level 5-8 = 3 in 6 (roll 1-3 on 1d6) Leve 9+ = 4 in 6 (roll 1-4 on 1d6) Sneak Attack - When making a melee attack on an enemy who is unaware of the PC, a successful attack deals maximum damage. At level 5, this improves to maximum damage + 1d6. At level 9, this improves to maximum damage + 2d6. Amazing Climber - The Thief can climb sheer surfaces that most would find impossible without ropes and climbing gear. His chances to climb such surfaces are as follows: Lvl 1-4 = 17:20 Lvl 5-8 = 18:20 Lvl 9+ = 19:20
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Post by librarylass on Feb 1, 2014 3:28:53 GMT -6
I posted an alternate take on the Thief to various boards a few years ago. Here its; www.therpgsite.com/showpost.php?p=281470&postcount=6Level/HD/Attacks as Supplement I Thief Stealth - When actively sneaking or hiding, the Thief gets +1 to surprise (e.g. instead of a standard 2:6 chance of surprise, the Thief gets a 3:6 chance of surprise). At level 9, this increases to +2 to surprise. (Note that a group uses the surprise chance of the least stealthy group member.) Perceptive - The Thief is only surprised on a 1:6, rather than the standard 2:6. He can detect secret doors on a roll of 1-3. When listening, he hears noises on a roll of 1-2. At level 6, his ability to hear noises improves to 3-6. Mechanical Manipulation - With proper tools, the Thief has a chance of opening mechanical locks without damaging them, or of removing or disabling small mechanical traps, like spring-loaded poison needles and the like. (Note that traps can also be disabled or bypassed with other precautions, described in-play.) His chances to do so are as follows: Level 1-4 = 2 in 6 (roll 1-2 on 1d6) Level 5-8 = 3 in 6 (roll 1-3 on 1d6) Leve 9+ = 4 in 6 (roll 1-4 on 1d6) Sneak Attack - When making a melee attack on an enemy who is unaware of the PC, a successful attack deals maximum damage. At level 5, this improves to maximum damage + 1d6. At level 9, this improves to maximum damage + 2d6. Amazing Climber - The Thief can climb sheer surfaces that most would find impossible without ropes and climbing gear. His chances to climb such surfaces are as follows: Lvl 1-4 = 17:20 Lvl 5-8 = 18:20 Lvl 9+ = 19:20 Oh yeah. I remember seeing that around back in the day. Solid.
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Post by Stormcrow on Feb 1, 2014 9:08:24 GMT -6
This is worth repeating here with more than just a link. Thief skills were essentially non-magical spells: they took effect automatically. If you had a 1st level Pick Lock skill, you could automatically pick a 1st level lock, but you could not pick a more advanced lock. Likewise with other skills. There were no rolls at all.
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Post by sepulchre on Feb 1, 2014 16:45:47 GMT -6
Talysman wrote: Indeed you have...I did not mean to appear dismissive; I think I just remain in favor of these skills being defined within the dungeon key and any modifiers being part of a racial ability. I also think that letting fantastic creatures like demi-humans racially define the limits of adventuring skills like surprise and the discovery of secret and concealed doors rounds out the sense of where normal men fit in the game. It becomes hard to reconcile heroes/superheroes i.e. and other men who operate on the fantasy combat table, because they still function as normal men when it comes to the dungeon key. None of that is to say, that one cannot retrofit, heroes/superheroes and the like into a modified d6 context, as you and others have done with the thief.
Certainly not, rules as written post 3LBBs. Barring even the addition of the 'Manual of Aurania' and attempts to retrofit the thief to a d6 I think the spirit of the game places the thief as a class in question. That is, there is room for debate by virtue of the the thief as a class in and of itself, and as evidenced by the number of past posts concerning whether or not the game necessitates a thief class. Turning to the question of magical locks one could argue that they are really the domain of magic users.
I like the notion of these skills being a secret, but some of these rulings put us beyond the bounds of the game as written. I understand this is a bit of homebrew, but it feels a bit overreaching. Even levelled thieves still work with tools and are screwed if directly under observation - that is, there remains something mundane about these skills.
You are right. To me The stealth skills add an extra die roll to the surprise dice which I find extraneous. Moreover, because stealth directly affects surprise, I see no reason not to refer to them as mundane, as surprise is mundane. If one wished to include Pick pockets, open locks, climb walls, hear noise, find/remove traps and read languages in the game they strike me as better fitted to racial abilities for men and demi-humans.
You may be right.
This is very clever, and if i were going to run a thief as a class this is a really cool design.
Finarvyn wrote: Indeed, and some in the past...most of which have been very insightful.
Kesher wrote: Thanks Kesher, it's an understanding I came to after many questions of my own and some very astute responses of others here and at the Alehouse.
Waysoftheearth and Kesher wrote: Thanks for the link - all very fascinating.
Stormcrow wrote:
I take it your emphasis is on the qualification of 'non-magical'. As Talysman had suggested, the lock level corresponds with the dungeon level then? Maybe that is of no consequence. Interesting...'Likewise with other skills there were no rolls at all'
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Post by Stormcrow on Feb 2, 2014 11:44:58 GMT -6
Stormcrow wrote: I take it your emphasis is on the qualification of 'non-magical'. As Talysman had suggested, the lock level corresponds with the dungeon level then? Maybe that is of no consequence. Interesting...'Likewise with other skills there were no rolls at all' Lock level—or trap level, or whatever—would be a measure of the complexity of the lock, not a function of dungeon level. You'd probably be more likely to find higher-level locks on deeper dungeon levels, but it's not a formula to follow.
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