jacar
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Posts: 343
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Post by jacar on Jan 9, 2014 10:56:20 GMT -6
HERE is my thread (which also covers the battle of helms deep and frodo's fight in the barrow downs using man to man. one point about the battle of the five armies. As will be clear in my quote in my battle scenario. The eagles were the 5th army. The reason the forces of weal won the day was an army of eagles not just a few. "So began a battle that none had expected; and it was called the Battle of Five Armies, and it was very terrible. Upon one side were the Goblins and the wild Wolves, and upon the other were Elves and Men and Dwarves." --The Hobbit Chapter 17 "The Clouds Burst" Wolves and Goblins were two separate entities. Eagles were more of a "deus ex machina" to end the battle and win the day.
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premmy
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Posts: 295
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Post by premmy on Jan 9, 2014 11:39:58 GMT -6
Only we have no reason to believe that the wolves were anything more intelligent or independent than mounds and maybe unridden war animals. Compare it to real life: a cavalry force doesn't count as two armies, one of humans and one of horses, either.
On the other hand, the Eagles are explicitly called by Tolkien "an army", as per cooper's quote.
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jacar
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Posts: 343
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Post by jacar on Jan 9, 2014 12:26:36 GMT -6
Only we have no reason to believe that the wolves were anything more intelligent or independent than mounds and maybe unridden war animals. Compare it to real life: a cavalry force doesn't count as two armies, one of humans and one of horses, either. On the other hand, the Eagles are explicitly called by Tolkien "an army", as per cooper's quote. Except for the fact that Tolkien explicitly says that the Wolves and the Goblins made up one side while the Lakemen, Elves and Dwarves made up the other. He calls it the Battle of Five armies and there are 5 armies there. Also, in either the appendices, or his other notes, the Wargs are wolves inhabited by evil spirits/demons or something. They are intelligent creatures. Not only that, but Tolkien thought enough of the Wargs to address them distinctly with the Goblin side. If they were just part of the Goblin army and were just mounts for Goblins, he likely would not have said anything of them at all when drawing up sides. They would have just been part of the battle description.
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Post by waysoftheearth on Jan 9, 2014 15:44:11 GMT -6
Only we have no reason to believe that the wolves were anything more intelligent or independent than mounds and maybe unridden war animals. We know that the wargs are sentient and speak their own tongue. Bilbo heard them speaking in The Hobbit, and Gandalf was said to have understood what the wargs were saying.
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Post by cooper on Jan 9, 2014 16:04:42 GMT -6
It's the battle of the 5 armies by the end, not at the begining. There is a passage when bilbo sees the eagles and Tolkien says, "and now the armies were five" (paraphrase).
Furthermore in the battle itself tolkien always refers to fighting the goblins. "The goblins this" and "the goblins that".
Gentlemen, It's not really up for debate--the Tolkien scholars say Elves, Men Dwarves, Eagles vs. goblins led by bolg. Are the bats their own army now? The eagles were the 5th army because each army had a general and were autonomous Gwahir led the army of eagles. Who was the warg general? Hint: if there is only Bolg then it's one army with foot, cavalry, air. If there is no warg or bat leader, it's not a warg or bat army.
Was Bolgs army large? You betcha. But it was an army led by bolg. The only commander of the eagles was Gwahir the windlord. To say the eagles were part of someone else's army, you have to stipulate men, dwarf or elf?
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Post by derv on Jan 9, 2014 16:57:21 GMT -6
The eagles were the 5th army because each army had a general and were autonomous This is actually an interesting statement cooper. Earlier in this thread we were talking about expanding the size of the Elven forces and Makofan made a comment that had me thinking. About the forces of Law he said, "I see it as an elven army stiffened by the dwarves and lake men, but not integrated with them." His statement had me shifting the way I imagined the battle in my mind. Now, your statement has me re-imagining it once again. BTW- I never knew there was debate on who each of the five armies were. I never gave it any thought that the Wargs themselves might be considered one of the armies. Maybe it should have been the Battle of Six Armies
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Post by waysoftheearth on Jan 9, 2014 17:43:57 GMT -6
The eagles were the 5th army because each army had a general and were autonomous This is actually an interesting statement cooper. Earlier in this thread we were talking about expanding the size of the Elven forces and Makofan made a comment that had me thinking. About the forces of Law he said, "I see it as an elven army stiffened by the dwarves and lake men, but not integrated with them." His statement had me shifting the way I imagined the battle in my mind. Now, your statement has me re-imagining it once again. CM doesn't, to my knowledge, give too many specifics on how army command and control structures can differ, but there are other rules that do. By the DBM rules (and its unofficial "fantasy supplement" DBF), for example, the forces of weal could be modeled as an Elvish army comprising four commands; the central Elvish command; a flank marching Eagle command; an allied contingent of Lakemen; and a second allied contingent of Dwarves. As cooper says, and as the DBM rules require, each command has its own general. The forces of woe could comprise 2 to 4 commands of mixed goblins, wargs, and bats. Bolg would be the overall army general; the other commands being led by no-name sub-generals.
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Post by derv on Jan 9, 2014 18:48:41 GMT -6
WotE, are DBM and DBF references to Phil Barker's rule sets? I've never heard of DBF. I looked at his HOTT rules, but didn't quite take to the concept of needing a stronghold (if my memory serves me right).
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jacar
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Posts: 343
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Post by jacar on Jan 9, 2014 19:12:51 GMT -6
WotE, are DBM and DBF references to Phil Barker's rule sets? I've never heard of DBF. I looked at his HOTT rules, but didn't quite take to the concept of needing a stronghold (if my memory serves me right). DBF is De Bellis Fantasticus. It is essentially the "Hordes of the Things" extension for "De Bellis Mutltitudinus" (DBM).
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Post by waysoftheearth on Jan 9, 2014 19:23:41 GMT -6
WotE, are DBM and DBF references to Phil Barker's rule sets? I've never heard of DBF. I looked at his HOTT rules, but didn't quite take to the concept of needing a stronghold (if my memory serves me right). DBF is De Bellis Fantasticus. It is essentially the "Hordes of the Things" extension for "De Bellis Mutltitudinus" (DBM). derv, yes. DBA + fantasy = HOTT (1 hour games) DBM + fantasy = DBF (3-4 hour games) DBM/DBF doesn't have strongholds, per se, but each army has a baggage train or camp to protect (a strategic liability). Sacking the enemy camp is great fun!
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Post by derv on Jan 10, 2014 20:19:11 GMT -6
derv Do post when you get some castings done! I'm such a spaz. I got the molds this week and immediately started casting Here's some pics. Sorry jacar, my camera doesn't like close ups. I'd say the Elves and Men are 25mm. The Dwarves are 20mm. And the Goblins (which are actually called Orc Stormtroopers) are 30mm. The Goblins mounted on the Wargs are themselves probably 20mm, but on top of the Wargs they measure about 30mm. The last pic has the Prince August figures next to my finished Airfix Briton and Roman archers for comparison. The Elven archer requires assembly. That's why the bow looks weird. It has to be removed and glued in position. As WotE said earlier, you can expect to have a reasonable amount of failed castings. Either they do not fill the mold completely or the casting breaks at some point. I've broken them while removing them from the mold and when I went to cut the spru off. You just throw it back in the pot to melt and recast when that happens. Well, moving ahead. Only 100+ more castings to do to wrap up this phase of the project .
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jacar
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Posts: 343
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Post by jacar on Jan 11, 2014 6:57:33 GMT -6
Thanks Derv! Those look good!. The Goblins, as I suspected, will make great 1/72 scale Orcs/Goblins in the Tolkien style. The Battle Orcs and probably the elves are too big though they'd probably go with the current range of LotR miniatures (GW).
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Post by derv on Jan 11, 2014 7:48:05 GMT -6
I suspect what you want to look at is what they call their "classic" molds.
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Post by rsdean on Jan 11, 2014 12:04:02 GMT -6
Agreed. I would have warned you about the size of that later elf mold...654 will match the rest in size and style better..the big orcs from 684 would be good as Bolg's bodyguard, though.
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