jacar
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Posts: 343
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Post by jacar on Jan 3, 2014 10:48:25 GMT -6
But you DID say: The thing is, as far as they knew, there were NO fast moving enemies anywhere near the mountain, so they had no reason NOT to bring more archers. Especially in a situation where they might want to make a show of force to sway some stubborn dwarves without necessarily coming to blows. It seems to me you've decided to peg the number of elven spearmen at 1000 no matter what, and are trying to justify the rest of the elven army in light of that number. The thing is, we do not know there were only 1000 spearmen. In fact, as I've already pointed out, there were very likely more, hence the quote Note the emphasised "of". If I say "a thousand OF", that means, best I can tell, that I have MORE than a thousand. "I have two thousand, a thousand OF WHICH". I peg the number at 1000 because that is what we know. How many more is there? 1001? 1100? 11000? Am i justifying? Nope. Derv has a really nice and workable setup as well. Just putting in my 2 cents. If you think there should be way more archers, then put way more archers in your lineup. i am only telling you why I think there were fewer archers. If you add too many archers, there won't be any need for the Eagles. The battle will be over before it really gets started.
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Post by cooper on Jan 3, 2014 12:11:55 GMT -6
I think the answer is to take a page from FFC and tolkiens own well detailed world and first figure out the population size of all the city-states ( lake town, dwarves elves etc). And then simply figure out the fyrd.
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Post by derv on Jan 3, 2014 12:22:11 GMT -6
I'm willing to agree that the number of troops could have been greater on both sides of the battle. Regardless, part of my objective is to turn those raw numbers into a manageable number of figures on the table without too much compromise. This involves reducing the numbers to a scale that makes it possible. Also, I clearly want the battle to be a challenge for both sides.
Here's my latest thoughts, keeping the scale at 1:50.
1000 Elves= 10 HF archers (4 + 3 pts) & 10 HF (4 pts)= 110 pts 513 Dwarves= 10 HF (2 pts) & 1 AF (2.5 pts)= 22.5 pts 500 Men= 6 HF (2 pts) & 4 LF archers (4 pts)= 28 pts *Eagles= 2 figures= 4 LH each (20 pts)= 40 pts *Beorn= 4 AF (20 pts)= 20 pts *these figures will not be in play at the beginning of the game and may not come into play unless triggered.
Total for Law= 160.5 + *60= 220.5 pts
4000 Goblins= 79 HF (2 pts as Orcs) & 1 AF (2.5 pts)= 160.5 pts 750 Goblin mounted Wargs= 15 MH (4 pts as MH*)= 60 pts *no point value is given for Wargs in the rules
Total for Chaos= 220.5 pts
These number of figures still maintains a roughly 2:5 ratio Law to Chaos (though it's getting close to 1:2).
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Post by derv on Jan 3, 2014 12:33:15 GMT -6
I think the answer is to take a page from FFC and tolkiens own well detailed world and first figure out the population size of all the city-states ( lake town, dwarves elves etc). And then simply figure out the fyrd. You'll have to elaborate. Part of my problem is that tolkiens world is not so greatly detailed as written. I don't mind doing the math, I simply do not have the numbers to base the calculations on.
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jacar
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Posts: 343
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Post by jacar on Jan 3, 2014 13:42:16 GMT -6
I think the answer is to take a page from FFC and tolkiens own well detailed world and first figure out the population size of all the city-states ( lake town, dwarves elves etc). And then simply figure out the fyrd. In looking around, those numbers don't seem to exist. The only thing certain is that Lake Town is probably a small city/harbor.
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premmy
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Posts: 295
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Post by premmy on Jan 3, 2014 13:49:15 GMT -6
I peg the number at 1000 because that is what we know. How many more is there? 1001? 1100? 11000? We know it's more, and we can reasonably make the assumption that by a not insignificant number. If there were, say, 1100 spearmen and 1000 of them charged, Tolkien wouldn't have used the phrase "a thousand of them charged", he would have said something like "most of them" or "almost all of them".
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Post by cooper on Jan 3, 2014 15:34:39 GMT -6
Here's my latest thoughts, keeping the scale at 1:50. 1000 Elves= 10 HF archers (4 + 3 pts) & 10 HF (4 pts)= 110 pts 513 Dwarves= 10 HF (2 pts) & 1 AF (2.5 pts)= 22.5 pts 500 Men= 6 HF (2 pts) & 4 LF archers (4 pts)= 28 pts *2 Eagles= 4 LH each (20 pts)= 40 pts *Beorn= 4 AF (20 pts)= 20 pts *these figures will not be in play at the beginning of the game and may not come into play unless triggered. Total for Law= 160.5 + *60= 220.5 pts 4000 Goblins= 79 HF (2 pts as Orcs) & 1 AF (2.5 pts)= 160.5 pts 750 Goblin mounted Wargs= 15 MH (4 pts as MH*)= 60 pts *no point value is given for Wargs in the rules Total for Chaos= 220.5 pts These number of figures still maintains a roughly 2:5 ratio Law to Chaos (though it's getting close to 1:2). Keeping the point totals the deciding factor in how many on each side is probably the right approach. A few things Beorn and the eagles are probably neutrality (not law) not that it matters so much here, but story wise it helps to show Law outnumbered and that their goodwill with neutrality helps save the day. Bolg should count as an anti hero unit (20pts) and there are some significant 1:1 battles that took place. If you are willing to do an honest "what could have been", why not start the battle with smaugs flight to dale? 100 point dragon vs bard (20pts) and one magic arrow (10pts). If bard falls, smaug will join up with the goblins... Bilbo also had a significant battle for himself in the books. So you can include sting (10pts) for the forces of weal and play out bilbos short battle before running a 1:1 with Beorn vs. bolg and his body guards (man to man vs. body guards then bolg vs. Beorn. Beorn should probably count as a super hero since he had a morale effect when charging against bolgs bodyguards. Since both thorin and the elf king are in attendance, they should both be hero units as well. Wether thorin is in magic armor and weapons because of smaugs treasure is up for grabs.
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Post by derv on Jan 3, 2014 17:02:25 GMT -6
If you are willing to do an honest "what could have been", why not start the battle with smaugs flight to dale? 100 point dragon vs bard (20pts) and one magic arrow (10pts). If bard falls, smaug will join up with the goblins... I like this idea. It's a nice prelude. If Smaug would win this engagement, it would entirely change the story line though. There would be no Lakemen to make up this part of the 5 armies. Most likely, no armies would show up for the battle, including the goblins. Smaugs death is really the catalyst that started the whole thing rolling. I'm thinking of running this according to the early LGTSA rules for mass combat, with minor exceptions for Beorn and the Eagles. All of the following figures would be considered unit commanders: Elven King, Dain, Bard, Thorin, & Bolg. I'm not including Bilbo nor Gandalf because they did not play major roles in the battle. But I might just have a figure on the board for them just for visual appeal. Then again, that's more figures I'd have to paint
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Post by makofan on Jan 3, 2014 17:25:57 GMT -6
I agree with premmy about there being more than 1000 spearmen. I could posit between 1500 and 3000, although 2000 seems like a reasonable number
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Post by derv on Jan 3, 2014 18:41:05 GMT -6
I can see premmy's logic. As it stands, I have 2013 men on the side of Law (not including Beorn or Eagles). On the side of Chaos I have 4750. If I increase the Elven HF to 1000 or even 1500, not including the additional 500 archers with these numbers, I will likewise have to raise the number of Goblin HF. I would do that in equal measure to maintain the ratio of Law to Chaos and to keep the point values balanced. I'm not sure I would gain anything by doing this? It would mean an additional 20-30 Elven HF and 20-30 Goblin HF figures. One thing it might do is change how the battle is played out tactically since there would be 2-2.5 times more elves on the western spur then men & dwarves on the eastern spur. Are you sure you and premmy aren't secretly plotting this in order to have me paint more figures?
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Post by makofan on Jan 3, 2014 19:06:13 GMT -6
I see it as an elven army stiffened by the dwarves and lake men, but not integrated with them. I would think the total elves to be double the total of men+dwarves
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Post by thorswulf on Jan 4, 2014 19:06:21 GMT -6
Oh, my achin' head! Impresssive discussion folks. For what it's worth if you are on a budget as far as actual figures go consider this: cheap plastic 1/72 Vikings, Normans or whatever with a green skinned paintjob. At a distance it should look OK. By all means mix them with metal figs or whatever you have. For wargs look for cheap plastic or rubber wolf toys and mount some of the plastic figures on them as riders. If this doesn't sound appealing to you use paper figures! they're cheap, light, and easy to store. If this still doesn't appeal to you remember this: most old school wargamers started with plastics, and they didn't have paper minis they could print out!
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Post by derv on Jan 5, 2014 11:48:04 GMT -6
Oh, my achin' head! Impresssive discussion folks. For what it's worth if you are on a budget as far as actual figures go consider this: cheap plastic 1/72 Vikings, Normans or whatever with a green skinned paintjob. At a distance it should look OK. By all means mix them with metal figs or whatever you have. For wargs look for cheap plastic or rubber wolf toys and mount some of the plastic figures on them as riders. If this doesn't sound appealing to you use paper figures! they're cheap, light, and easy to store. If this still doesn't appeal to you remember this: most old school wargamers started with plastics, and they didn't have paper minis they could print out! Some good advice thorswulf. I considered the cheap 1/72 plastic figures, but even those end up costing quite a bit to field an army in this scenario (especially goblins). I decided to go with the Prince August molds which allow me to cast as many figs as I need and have metal for. I'll probably post a couple pics when I do my first castings. I'm still going to have to use your suggestion of cheap plastic or rubber toys for the Eagles and Beorn. I'm sure one of my kids has something suitable
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jacar
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Posts: 343
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Post by jacar on Jan 7, 2014 8:37:37 GMT -6
Hey Derv,
If you have 1/72 scale figures and cast up some goblins, can you compare the sizes for me? I know the PA Molds are "true 25s" at least the old fantasy molds are.
John
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Post by rsdean on Jan 7, 2014 12:55:33 GMT -6
You need some Prince August pictures? Compared to what? I've got a bunch...
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jacar
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Posts: 343
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Post by jacar on Jan 7, 2014 14:34:08 GMT -6
rsdean Do you have any 1/72 scale soldiers? The ones I own are about 24mm tall from the bottom of the foot to the top of the head. Essentially true 25s. So if you can make a comparison to something like that, that would be great. Or simply do a pic of a figure against a ruler. Thanks, John
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Post by derv on Jan 7, 2014 16:56:29 GMT -6
John, I'd be happy to include some pics once I cast a few. I could put them side by side with my 1/72 AirFix figures. If rsdean beats me to it, that's okay too I'll probably still post a couple pics and give everyone my initial impressions.
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Post by rsdean on Jan 7, 2014 19:49:13 GMT -6
1/72 Sheriff of Nottingham and Caesar adventurer versus stands of Prince August goblins from mold PA678:
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Post by rsdean on Jan 7, 2014 19:51:19 GMT -6
I apologize for the picture quality there; taken with my iPad 2. I shimmed the 1/72 scale stands so the bases were approximately level.
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jacar
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Posts: 343
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Post by jacar on Jan 7, 2014 20:24:12 GMT -6
I apologize for the picture quality there; taken with my iPad 2. I shimmed the 1/72 scale stands so the bases were approximately level. No apologies needed. Just what the doctor ordered! Those goblins look spot on for 1/72 scale goblins/orcs. Thanks for posting the pictures. That was a big help. derv Do post when you get some castings done!
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Post by rsdean on Jan 8, 2014 17:17:50 GMT -6
The next Prince August question is: if I did this all in home cast figures, which molds would suffice...
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Torreny
Level 4 Theurgist
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Post by Torreny on Jan 8, 2014 17:23:55 GMT -6
Moreso, for curiosity than any serious thought into the potential numbers of the battle, however I figured I would share something I thought up last night. Looking over my Battle of the Five Armies set Games Workshop used to do, I looked at the numbers of figures, which in the game each unit is made of three stands (with each stand having two strips of five men). I based each strip individually, for use in Chainmail (or whatever), and use each to represent a figure. All told, this comes out to this allotment of figures:
Goblin Foot: 48 Warg Riders: 24 Wargs: 24 Lakemen Bows: 6 Lakemen Foot: 6 Dwarf Foot: 12 Elf Bows: 12 Elf Foot: 12 Eagles: 6 Beorn (bear), Thorin, Dain, Thranduil, Bard, Gandalf, Bolg, goblin shaman, 2 goblin leaders.
At 1:20 scale, the forces are thus:
Goblins: 1924 men (or 1934, if counting heroic combat values) Lakemen: 241 men (or 244, " ") Dwarves: 242 men (or 248, " ") Elves: 481 men (or 484, " ") Eagles: 120 men (or 480, as each counts as 4 horse) Others: 2 men (or 10, if counting heroic combat values)
Furthermore, instead making each figure 1:100 scale, the total combat values become:
Goblins: 9604 (or 9614, if counting heroic combat values) Lakemen: 1201 (or 1204, " ") Dwarves: 1202 (or 1208, " ") Elves: 2401 (or 2404, " ") Eagles: 600 (or 2400, as each counts as 4 horse) Others: 2 (or 10, if counting heroic combat values)
Number of Combatants: Badguys: 9604 Goodguys: 4805 (+601 reinforcements)
Figured you lot might at least be amused.
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jacar
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Posts: 343
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Post by jacar on Jan 8, 2014 18:06:23 GMT -6
Good call Torreny.
The only number we know for sure is that the Dwarves have more than 500 troops. I'd suggest 1:45 for a scale.
That would be Dwarves 540 Lake Men 270 Archers 270 Swordsmen Elf Bow 540 Elf foot 540 Total 2160
Goblins 2160 foot 1080 Wargs plus riders
Total 3240 Goblins 1080 Wargs
Things to consider... If the Elves charged with 1000 of their spear, that would suggest that many of the bowmen were dual armed. That would mean they left a token force to guard the hill. Goblins with Wargs outnumbered the Allies by just 2-1 There would be a good many heroes running around and at least 2 magic blades! To make this scenario work, Bolg's body guard should be at least Elite Heavy foot if not Armored foot.
I think the scenario does fit within the framework of what we know.
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Post by waysoftheearth on Jan 8, 2014 18:49:27 GMT -6
The Tolkien Gateway has a BoFA article with numbers not too far different from these. They suggest: Over 1,000 Elf spearmen and archers, est. 2-300 Lake-Men, over 500 Dwarves from the Iron Hills, many Eagles, Thorin's 12 Dwarf companions, and Beorn (but they omit Gandalf from their summary). Versus: "innumberable" Goblins and Wargs; possibly 6-15,000 or more.
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Post by cooper on Jan 8, 2014 20:35:25 GMT -6
HERE is my thread (which also covers the battle of helms deep and frodo's fight in the barrow downs using man to man. one point about the battle of the five armies. As will be clear in my quote in my battle scenario. The eagles were the 5th army. The reason the forces of weal won the day was an army of eagles not just a few.
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Post by derv on Jan 8, 2014 21:22:31 GMT -6
The next Prince August question is: if I did this all in home cast figures, which molds would suffice... The following Prince August molds I thought were key: #669 for the Lakemen #653 & 658 for the Dwarves #691 for the Elves #669 & 684 for the Goblins and Wargs There are a few others that would add variety to the game though. Such as #651, 657, 677, & 692.
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Post by derv on Jan 8, 2014 21:51:13 GMT -6
HERE is my thread (which also covers the battle of helms deep and frodo's fight in the barrow downs using man to man. one point about the battle of the five armies. As will be clear in my quote in my battle scenario. The eagles were the 5th army. The reason the forces of weal won the day was an army of eagles not just a few. I think most would agree that the Eagles were the 5th army. The thing is, they were not present until the end of the battle. In the story, their appearing seems to be a surprise to all. So, how do you handle them in a Chainmail scenario while trying to maintain some semblance of the narrative? It is also important to recognize the strength of Rocs in the Fantasy Supplement as attacking as 4 LH and defending as 4 HH. I view both Beorn and the Eagles as game changers. My thoughts on using the Eagles in this scenario were that they could be triggered by the random roll of a 6 on one die, starting at the beginning of turn 3, followed every turn there after until triggered. The fact being that they may not be triggered at all. I'm not completely committed to this idea though.
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Torreny
Level 4 Theurgist
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Post by Torreny on Jan 8, 2014 22:02:15 GMT -6
I imagine, Jacar, that Bolg‘s bodyguard of giant goblins would be either the hobgoblin (fights as AF/HF) or giant orc (AF/AF) mentioned in the goblin and orc entries, or alternately, using The Dragon‘s BoFA idea of each counting as 2AF/2HF. But I think that‘s unduly nasty.
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Post by waysoftheearth on Jan 8, 2014 22:58:19 GMT -6
The following Prince August molds I thought were key: #669 for the Lakemen #653 & 658 for the Dwarves #691 for the Elves #669 & 684 for the Goblins and Wargs There are a few others that would add variety to the game though. Such as #651, 657, 677, & 692. In my school days a friend and I had most of the PA 25mm fantasy moulds. We probably still have them packed away somewhere. We cast hundreds (if not thousands) of those figures over a period of several years. The main things I remember from that experience are: 1) The casting metal is ridiculously expensive at retail. Unless you have a cheap/free source of the metal it's probably cheaper to buy miniatures from a vendor. We were fortunate to get most of our metal free from a local printing press (discarded printing blocks). 2) Casting the figures is a lot of effort. It will take many hours of effort to cast them. Depending on the particular mould, the quality/heat of the metal, and how fussy you are, you can expect a decent fail rate; I'd say at least 20% (I remember specifically that the warg rider mould was difficult, and that the troll was super easy). Then it'll take many more hours of effort to prep them for painting, then many more hours again to paint and base them. 3) You can expect to get all manner of minor burns to your fingers, hands, clothes, and working surface; you'll be handling molten metal for hours and hours! In one infamous incident of my youth, I was holding a 4" diam ladle of molten metal in position over the burner as my friend dropped some more stock metal in for melting. Due to the heat, he dropped it in from 3" or so and by chance it caused a "splash" of liquid metal which, naturally, splashed my face and eyes. Not. cool. In those days there was no such thing as "protective eye wear", but I recommend you use some. 4) The overall quality of the castings will not be equal to any of the injection molded miniatures you are used to seeing these days. They tend to be more basic, and less three-dimensional. Additionally, the mould itself will deteriorate over time, especially as it gets hotter and hotter with use. From memory, PA advise that you should only use a mold three or four times in a row before letting it cool off a bit. But in practice you'll want to pump them out until the mould gets too hot to handle. All good fun of course, but no way could I find the time to repeat all that now
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jacar
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Posts: 343
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Post by jacar on Jan 9, 2014 8:18:43 GMT -6
I imagine, Jacar, that Bolg‘s bodyguard of giant goblins would be either the hobgoblin (fights as AF/HF) or giant orc (AF/AF) mentioned in the goblin and orc entries, or alternately, using The Dragon‘s BoFA idea of each counting as 2AF/2HF. But I think that‘s unduly nasty. I like the AF/HF thing as it makes them wicked on attack but still they can be hurt more easily.
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