Klytus, I'm bored.

[scottenkainen]

Were you ever asked to playtest new character classes/races, or were you always allowed to play what you wanted?

Which DMs rolled your stats for you and which allowed you to roll them yourself?

~Scott "-enkainen" Casper

[Deleted]

Dec 18, 2013 10:06:37 GMT -6 scottenkainen said:

Were you ever asked to playtest new character classes/races, or were you always allowed to play what you wanted?

Which DMs rolled your stats for you and which allowed you to roll them yourself?

~Scott "-enkainen" Casper

Don't remember, to both.

[Deleted]

Dec 17, 2013 20:25:34 GMT -6 jmccann said:

Dec 16, 2013 12:18:27 GMT -6 @gronanofsimmerya said:

Occasionally. We'd have 4-6 PCs plus henchmen to number 12 to 15. Outdoors were dangerous.

I'm not entirely sure what your last question means. If we went out into the wilderness looking for lairs, we had more of a chance of finding lairs, as opposed to town or dungeon adventures.

Thanks for your response.

What I mean for the second part of my question is this: many of the random encounters involve hundreds of creatures. For instance, I generated an encounter with bandits with 56 light foot, 35 short bow, 35 light horse, 28 med horse, and a bunch of higher level figures, and this is lower than average for bandits. This sounds more like a wargame scenario than an RPG encounter. Did you ever play an encounter with such a large number of creatures as wargames, or would you only roleplay such an encounter?

We never used miniatures, if that's what you mean. But we used the same tactics we'd use with miniatures. Does that answer your question?

[Deleted]

Dec 16, 2013 12:34:55 GMT -6 legopaidi said:

Ok, I'm following you around in 2 different forums

The following maybe difficult to recall but it's worth the try I guess

Do you recall the first time you actually played? What was your first character? Was Gary the DM? Who were the other players? What happened in that session?

What about the first time your character died? How did it happen? Where did it happen?

Do you remember facing any monster(s) that was used back then but didn't make it to OD&D or even AD&D?

1) Yes, Gronan of Simmerya, Yes, Rob Kuntz, Ernie Gygax, Mary Dale, Tom Champeny, don't remember.

2) Don't remember.

3) The number of monsters grew, not shrank, so no.

[Deleted]

Dec 17, 2013 3:13:44 GMT -6 oakesspalding said:

I find this subject fascinating. Thank you for your comments.

To me, the tension between the dungeon environment where you sort of (emphasis on sort of) know the strength or at least the range of the strength of the creatures on the various levels with wilderness adventures where you could theoretically saunter past 2 Giant Hogs one day but on the next get jumped by surprise by 8 Vampires is a kind of sticking point. I'm not sure how it should be resolved. How did Gary resolve it? Did he "cheat", especially for long term players? Once you hit 9th level, or whatever, were you basically immune from, so to speak, random high-level horribles unless you actively sought them out?

And I'm curious as to his not using miniatures? Do you think that's a good idea? Or was it a good idea for his style of play? What was his rationale for it?

I understand that the game was new at the time. But do you remember whether any players had any criticisms of the rules or his style of refereeing (outside of purely selfish ones)? Or was there simply so little experience with alternatives that people just accepted things as the only way they could be?

Thanks again. I know I'm probably stupid, but who is Klytus?

Well, wilderness was much more hazardous. We didn't even start wilderness adventures until level 5 or 6, and random outdoors encounters were just that... random!

But note that "outdoors" and "wilderness" were not the same. Wilderness adventures assume you're deliberately leaving civilized lands to find trouble.

So, we never saw it as a sticking point. It was a feature.

Why use miniatures? He saw no need, neither did anyone else.

We all had opinions about the rules. Style of reffing, not so much. I didn't encounter the "Waa waa waa mean old referee arbitrary decisions boo hoo poor me" until years later. Getting eaten by a Black Pudding was no different from having your lead tank run over a mine and blow up. It's a wargame, $hit happens, deal with it.

[grodog]

Hi Mike---

How competitive were the playing groups, and how did that shape your PC interactions? Much of the way that the game is played these days seems to have a group of homogenized PCs who are all working together, would never steal from one another or betray each other, etc.---my assumption is that the Lake Geneva groups were less homogenized than modern day "Fellowship-inspired" groups of PCs? I'm thinking here a little about why Robilar adventured solo so much---perhaps because a) he didn't want to split the treasure with others, b) he didn't trust most other PCs, c) most other PCs didn't trust him, etc.---and also how often the PCs were at odds with one another, both in general (PC A hated PC B and would kill him on sight if he could get away with it), as well as on specific missions/goals (like Ward's PC bilking another MU or two into handing him magic items via magic mouths on the Great Stone Face).

Oh, and another Q for you about that: what were the physical differences between the Great Stone Face (giant moai head statue) vs. the huge face in the floor that imprisoned Fraz'Urb-luu?---were they on the same levels, did they look similar, were they completely unrelated, etc.? I've mixed the two up quite a bit over the years (as I owned up to @ doomsdaygames.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=greyhawkad&action=display&thread=710 ), and would like to get some more info/details about the two from your recollections, so that I better clarify the two in my own mind, and help Greyhawk fans do the same!

Thanks, and Happy New Year!

Allan.

[Deleted]

Sadly, or perhaps fortunately, I never personally encountered either the Great Stone Face or the Face on the Dungeon Floor, so I can't speak to that.

We were mostly "friendly rivals." We'd work together on an adventure in various combinations, but outside the adventures we were rivals. More "get there first" rather than "try to do the other guy dirt," though. And more tricking the other players than violence against the characters.

Robilar adventured alone i) because he thought most other people were poor players and ii) the fewer people to split treasure with, the better.

[barrataria]

Dec 20, 2013 19:51:54 GMT -6 @gronanofsimmerya said:

We all had opinions about the rules. Style of reffing, not so much. I didn't encounter the "Waa waa waa mean old referee arbitrary decisions boo hoo poor me" until years later. Getting eaten by a Black Pudding was no different from having your lead tank run over a mine and blow up. It's a wargame, $hit happens, deal with it.

Sorry for being late to this thread, but I hope you share this thought frequently. There's a reason characters are so easy to generate! Not at all unlike losing some units and hoping like hell you can make it to Turn 5 when reinforcements appear.

Now for a question, sorry if I've asked before but if I did the message board probably died. Did Gronan build a stronghold/get followers?

[scottyg]

Howdy Mike. Seasons greetings!
Back to the wilderness adventuring. Those 100 bandits, or 200 orcs random encounters are such a pain in the arse to DM. Any tips you could share on how you manage them?

[Todd]

Dec 17, 2013 3:13:44 GMT -6 oakesspalding said:

...I know I'm probably stupid, but who is Klytus?

It's from the beginning of a movie, Flash Gordon (1980?): youtu.be/SufvakN67WA

[Deleted]

Dec 28, 2013 17:06:49 GMT -6 barrataria said:

Dec 20, 2013 19:51:54 GMT -6 @gronanofsimmerya said:

We all had opinions about the rules. Style of reffing, not so much. I didn't encounter the "Waa waa waa mean old referee arbitrary decisions boo hoo poor me" until years later. Getting eaten by a Black Pudding was no different from having your lead tank run over a mine and blow up. It's a wargame, $hit happens, deal with it.

Sorry for being late to this thread, but I hope you share this thought frequently. There's a reason characters are so easy to generate! Not at all unlike losing some units and hoping like hell you can make it to Turn 5 when reinforcements appear.

Now for a question, sorry if I've asked before but if I did the message board probably died. Did Gronan build a stronghold/get followers?

I moved to Minneapolis just after Gronan hit 9th level, so no, sadly.

[Deleted]

Dec 29, 2013 10:21:52 GMT -6 scottyg said:

Howdy Mike. Seasons greetings!
Back to the wilderness adventuring. Those 100 bandits, or 200 orcs random encounters are such a pain in the arse to DM. Any tips you could share on how you manage them?

Hm. Well, a lair would be a camp or cave.

Pretty much I imagined "What did Robin Hood and company do day to day." They'd post guards, have some people doing chores, etc.

What in particular do you want to know? I could be more specific if you asked more specific questions.

[scottyg]

Maybe I just over-think them. The not in lair encounters are the ones that make me want to roll again. There's just a lot to figure out on the fly.
The orcs, hobgoblins, bandits, etc. 'marching order' is probably the detail that I would like your thoughts on. How do you decide who's where at the beginning of the encounter?

[Deleted]

Okay, see, I figure that the orcs or bandits aren't utter morons.

There is going to be a small group (6-12) of outguards in front and flank and rear of the main body. Some of them will engage the party while at least 1 or 2 sound the alarm. At that point the other groups of guards will NOT come toward the sound; they will stay in position to watch for more forces while a cohort of 20 orcs detaches from the main body to move to the alarm. If a second alarm sounds, 2 more cohorts will detatch and try to flank.

[legopaidi]

OK! Here's another one. It's probably very difficult to answer.

I'd like to know how you originally handled melee combat. I know you were using the "alternate combat system" right off the bat.

1) But how did you handle Fighting-Men multiple attacks - did you include the OD&D FAQ stating the F-M get one attack per HD against "normal men"?
How did you define "normal men"? Did you use the "Fighting Capability" chart or was it purely a Chainmail thing? And where any kind of monsters equivalent to "normal men" (let's say Goblins?)
For example according to the FC a 4th level F-M is considered a Hero (not "normal man") and a 4th level M-U a Hero-1 (he's still "normal man"). So a Fighting 4th F-M could attack 4 times a 4th level M-U?

2)How about Monster multiple attacks - did a Troll (6+3 HD) attack 6 times with a +3 bonus on one of its attacks against "normal men" (as per M&T p.5)? And did a 2HD humanoid monster attack 2 times vs "normal men" too?


To go back to question 1) maybe this also happened with Fighting-Men attacking "normal men" (so a Superhero 8+2 HD would get 8 attacks and a +2 bonus in one of them?)



If you don't remember exactly I would be equally be happy with knowing how you handle these at the moment

[Red Baron]

What was the biggest baddest thing you ever killed?

What times did the players get so thoroughly spanked that they had to withdraw from combat?

[grodog]

What was the most challenging level/set of encounters you delved in each of Castle Greyhawk, Blackmoor Castle, and the Jakallan Underworld, in the sense that the level/encounters required repeated forays to overcome? Any info you can tell us about the levels/encounter sets for context/fun would be great to hear, Mike!

[Deleted]

1) Multiple attacks only happened against 1 HD or less creatures, period.

2) Don't remember.

3) Lots of times. Failure to withdraw from combat when necessary was the mark of an imbecile.

4) Don't remember.

[scalydemon]

Hi, cool thread.

I like old pics. Do you have any old gaming pics from back in the day that you may be able to scan and share? Others may be interested I imagine as well

If not no biggie just thought I'd ask thanks

[Deleted]

Film, and cameras, were expensive. As Tim Kask said, "we were a bunch of dumpy wargamers, nobody wanted to take pictures."

[scalydemon]

Michael,

Can you recall and talk about the period in time when the original printing of OD&D started to really take off. Was there a point you remember when Gary came to the realization that he could quit his day job (shoe repair?) - and what that may have been like? Was there a sense of excitement or giddiness in the air as in' holy crap this thing is really taking off!"?

Any thoughts you can share on this slice of time would be awesome. Thanks

[archersix]

I'm really enjoying reading this thread.

I've read that Gary referenced Barsoom in his Greyhawk dungeon. Did you ever experience any Mars themed adventures? Did you see any other old science fiction references? Buck Rogers or Flash Gordon? Any Cthulu stuff? Or anything else?

[Deleted]

Jan 5, 2014 9:32:15 GMT -6 scalydemon said:

Michael,

Can you recall and talk about the period in time when the original printing of OD&D started to really take off. Was there a point you remember when Gary came to the realization that he could quit his day job (shoe repair?) - and what that may have been like? Was there a sense of excitement or giddiness in the air as in' holy crap this thing is really taking off!"?

Any thoughts you can share on this slice of time would be awesome. Thanks

That happened after I went to college in Minneapolis, so I missed it.

[Deleted]

Jan 6, 2014 16:13:06 GMT -6 archersix said:

I'm really enjoying reading this thread.

I've read that Gary referenced Barsoom in his Greyhawk dungeon. Did you ever experience any Mars themed adventures? Did you see any other old science fiction references? Buck Rogers or Flash Gordon? Any Cthulu stuff? Or anything else?

I never went to Barsoom, but Ernie did, and Rob wanted to. There were some odd bits of science fiction (more "Sword And Planet," actually) in Greyhawk but it was a long time ago.

And there was a "Church of the Latter Day Great Old Ones," which we avoided like crazy.

[grodog]

Heh: that was one of Rob's set of inter-related levels, and they're a doozy

What more can you tell us about your book, Michael?: do you have a publisher already, and if so when do you expect it to be released? What do you cover/not cover/etc.?

Also: who are your favorite TSR-published artists, and your favorite pieces by each?

Allan.

[Deleted]

I'm going to be launching my book by Kickstarter. Publisher yet to be determined.

See "List of Chapters" elsewhere.

My favorite artist is Dave Sutherland, and my favorite piece is "A Paladin in Hell." Dave was a good friend, and I gave him the copies of actual armor he modeled his drawings on.

[scottyg]

How was "Town" handled by Dave and Gary? I heard Gary hand waved a lot of the town time between adventures early on, but the town environment evolved over time. Did Gronan have regular digs in the city?

[Deleted]

Gronan lived at the Nauseous Pig Inn. Look for the sign of the retching porker!

Gary spent as much time in town as players wanted to. Rob especially loved town adventures. But if you didn't want to adventure there, he wouldn't force it.

[scottyg]

Did any of your PCs ever run into the Latter Day Great Old Ones? That was one of Ron's contributions I think, more of a Town encounter?

[Deleted]

I stayed as far away from the Church of the Latter Day Great Old Ones as I could. I also avoided soapstone stars, et al.