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Post by Red Baron on Oct 24, 2013 10:40:39 GMT -6
Nice... what about these too?[ The sorceror has mystical spirits like efreet and wraiths as his slaves, not a colorful band of comical misfit humanoids followig him around. I'm iffy on dryads, but a sorceror with goblins and elfs and gnomes at his tail looks a a lot less scary. I do like wizards with a lycanthrope or goblin henchman, but that follower is a loyal and probably magically charmed follower, not a ethereal demon from the deep of space
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Post by waysoftheearth on Oct 24, 2013 15:52:35 GMT -6
I'm iffy on dryads, but a sorceror with goblins and elfs and gnomes at his tail looks a a lot less scary. I do like wizards with a lycanthrope or goblin henchman, but that follower is a loyal and probably magically charmed follower, not a ethereal demon from the deep of space I think this would be quite setting specific. If the PCs are all humans in a setting such as Carcosa, mythic Britain, The Crusades, or any "gritty" medieval world, then elves and goblins are "proper" monsters too. Whether or not elves and goblins would be "comical" in a fantasy setting, or the perverse result of hideous flesh altering experiments is also a game specific element. The more general question is whether or not the M-U should have a menagerie of servants physically following him about, or whether he should have stolen/trapped their essence or spirits in a flask, gemstone, genie-lamp, or other totem that he carries with him. Does he then also have their physical bodies in cold storage in the dungeons somewhere beneath his tower..? Personally, I think something like the latter is more appropriate. This style of sorcerer/necromancer would be feared by elves, goblins, and men as well as despised by the extra-planar sorts, because he might entrap any of them into servitude.
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Post by aldarron on Oct 30, 2013 5:21:26 GMT -6
This is similar to something I've been thinking of lately. A lot of peoples the world over have thought that anything that happens must have a direct source, i.e.; someone or something doing it. Fairies in the garden making the flowers bloom, gnomes underground doing whatever they do. Remember, Elric didn't go to Arioch straightaway. In his earliest stories (that is, the stories earliest in his timeline, not necessarily the first stories Moorcock wrote) he took advantage of ancient pacts his people made with the King of the Sea or whoever (which saved him from drowning), etc. So, what if magic works in a similar way in a game? ........ Just as an historical note, this is the idea utilized by Dave Arneson for human magic in Adventures in Fantasy (1978). He called it "pact magic". The idea was that dragons, elves, fairy creatures, etc. were themselves magical and could channel magic energy directly, but humans had to make pacts with supernatural creatures to effect spells. The power of the spell worked on a spell point system and a formula tied into the MU's intelligence. Another aspect of the AiF system that might be of interest here is that all spells had alignments (Chaos, neutral, Law).
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Post by Red Baron on Nov 16, 2013 22:42:31 GMT -6
I'm iffy on dryads, but a sorceror with goblins and elfs and gnomes at his tail looks a a lot less scary. I do like wizards with a lycanthrope or goblin henchman, but that follower is a loyal and probably magically charmed follower, not a ethereal demon from the deep of space I think this would be quite setting specific. If the PCs are all humans in a setting such as Carcosa, mythic Britain, The Crusades, or any "gritty" medieval world, then elves and goblins are "proper" monsters too. Whether or not elves and goblins would be "comical" in a fantasy setting, or the perverse result of hideous flesh altering experiments is also a game specific element. The more general question is whether or not the M-U should have a menagerie of servants physically following him about, or whether he should have stolen/trapped their essence or spirits in a flask, gemstone, genie-lamp, or other totem that he carries with him. Does he then also have their physical bodies in cold storage in the dungeons somewhere beneath his tower..? Personally, I think something like the latter is more appropriate. This style of sorcerer/necromancer would be feared by elves, goblins, and men as well as despised by the extra-planar sorts, because he might entrap any of them into servitude. I guess I just dont want blasphemous dark sorcerors turning into pokemon trainers. A sorceror with a 'slave of the lamp' is cool and s&s. A sorceror with a menagerie of cuddly little magical buddies is not.
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premmy
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Posts: 295
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Post by premmy on Nov 17, 2013 7:14:00 GMT -6
I agree with the latter part, but I think there's a false dilemma here. For some reason, everyone seems to be hung up on the notion that the sorcerer can only get the magical power from a creature he has enslaved, subjugated, mastered etc. - in other words, that the sorcerer is forcing the creatures to give up their power.
But that is not a "pact". By definition, a pact is an agreement between two willing and equal parties. It's also represented as exactly that in pop culture occultism: you don't force the Devil to do things for you scots-free, you sign a pact where you pay a pretty hefty price in exchange for the favours.
If you want to go down the "magic comes from magical creatures" route, it should be like that. The creature giving you some magical ability is neither your slave nor your servant, it's simply a partner in a trade. It does what it wants, goes where it wants, and doesn't have to be anywhere in you vicinity. Also, you must do or pay something in echange for the magic.
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Post by cooper on Nov 24, 2013 20:14:45 GMT -6
The plainswalker
A wizard who's magic taps into the multiverse, part summoner, part spell slinger.
Hit points: 2 per level fixed (or as wizard) weapons and armor: any. Every magic item owned however counts as one card (a 10th level plains walker with a magic sword, a wand of magic missiles, and three potions of healing may only have 55 cards in his deck).
Level 1: 6 cards level 2: 12 cards level 3: 18 cards .... Level 10: 60 cards
This wizard spells are cast using the rules of magic the gathering. Your deck size is determined by the PC's level. Beginning with 6 cards and increasing by 6 each level.
modfications to the rules: All land (mana) cards are placed on the table and are able to be tapped at any time, but once tapped are unable to be reset a full days rest is had. Summoned creatures creatures have as many HD as their card says for defense and has 2 attacks, each dealing 1/2 as many HD in damage as their card says. (a 5/5 creature has 5 HD and deals 2d6+1/2d6+1 damage). All creatures fit into the Monster summoning I--IX spells listed in the PHB in regards to duration.
other spells are subject to DM adjudication. Fireball for example can require 3 mountain land/mana (representing 3rd level spells) and deal 5d6 damage. Phantasmal force, for example would require 4 water land/mana.
White: Lawful and abjuration spells Blue: illusion and water based spells Red: earth and fire spells Black: necromancy Green: nature spells
alternate rule: Spell casting takes as much time as it does in an actual MtG game. i.e. you draw cards from your deck at random at the start of each battle and may only cast a spell if you have the requisite mana on the table prepared to be tapped. The benefit is, at the start of each battle all of your cards reset to your library instead of requiring a days rest to re use
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jeff
Level 4 Theurgist
Posts: 108
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Post by jeff on Nov 28, 2013 23:48:01 GMT -6
One of the things I am doing in my next game is to make magic more rare and much less "accessible" to standard MUs.
They cannot learn spells from scrolls, nor can they learn them from other magic users' spell books. Instead, they learn spells from supernatural entities. Often MUs will adventure to find specific rewards for a supernatural entity so that the entity will teach them a specific spell, which is unique for each caster. Spell books would still be used specifically for recording how the MU casts his spells, but the book is specific to the wizard, not even a read magic spell will allow an MU to learn from another's spell book.
I also like the idea of MUs gaining spells from creatures like unicorns or dryads. Instead of having them as followers, you could have the creature provide a magic item (like a wand from a the dryad's tree, or a sliver of the unicorn's horn) which provides the spell like effects just like any other magic item. The creature would provide it if the MU spares their life or for some other service. It also, doesn't inhibit the MU from actually enslaving an elemental using a brazier or bowl or even some other method for forcing chaotics to do the will of the MU for a limited time.
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Post by Red Baron on Nov 29, 2013 9:58:20 GMT -6
I'm worried that could remove the motivation to seek out and kill other great wizards for their spells. Stealing spell books, or coercing knowledge out of other sorcerers is a big part of being a magic user.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2013 8:27:29 GMT -6
One of the things I am doing in my next game is to make magic more rare and much less "accessible" to standard MUs. They cannot learn spells from scrolls, nor can they learn them from other magic users' spell books. Instead, they learn spells from supernatural entities. Often MUs will adventure to find specific rewards for a supernatural entity so that the entity will teach them a specific spell, which is unique for each caster. Spell books would still be used specifically for recording how the MU casts his spells, but the book is specific to the wizard, not even a read magic spell will allow an MU to learn from another's spell book. What problems do you have with MUs knowing too many spells that caused you to do this? I tend to end up with my magic-user players having lots of spells to choose from. The 2nd level MU IMC knows 13 different first level spells, all but 3 of which I created.
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jeff
Level 4 Theurgist
Posts: 108
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Post by jeff on Dec 1, 2013 18:44:07 GMT -6
I'm worried that could remove the motivation to seek out and kill other great wizards for their spells. Stealing spell books, or coercing knowledge out of other sorcerers is a big part of being a magic user. An understandable concern, however, one of my intents is that wizards are not seeking out other wizards for the sole purpose of stealing their spells. I don't want that kind of wizard-hunt-wizard play at all. One of the objectives is that wizards are very rare (maybe 1 or 2 per kingdom) and that discovering spells is VERY dangerous business. Magic items would be from an age long past...available but rare. Potions would be the works of alchemists. What problems do you have with MUs knowing too many spells that caused you to do this? I tend to end up with my magic-user players having lots of spells to choose from. The 2nd level MU IMC knows 13 different first level spells, all but 3 of which I created. I never said I had a problem with MUs knowing too many spells. I just want the spells known to be difficult to obtain. It hasn't been hashed out on paper or anything, moreover just a thought of how I might want to handle it.
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jeff
Level 4 Theurgist
Posts: 108
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Post by jeff on Dec 18, 2013 8:11:03 GMT -6
I would also highly recommend that one read through Empire of the Petal Throne for other alternatives to standard D&D magic. Tekumel's magic is similar to D&D, but seems sufficiently different in delivery and acquisition that it has a certain S&S vibe to it that I intrinsically like.
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Post by cooper on Feb 2, 2014 15:35:39 GMT -6
I will introduce here rules on a non-vancian spell casting class. The rules that follow do their best to utilize ideas and rules already in extant (the 9 schools of magic from 1e). Lots of ideas are borrowed from Ars Magica.
fatigue: Divide your HD by 1/2+1. This is your fatigue level. You have a minimum of 2 level. Being fatigued comes with penalties to actions and spell casting. Similar to HD, failing a spell casting roll can tire your character out. At low levels casting magic is very unforgiving and a single mistake can knock a character unconscious. At higher levels, PC's have increased endurance and can better manage the stress of magic.
Opcero, the 1st level MU has 2 fatigue.
Conversly, Opcero at 7th level has 4 Fatigue.
Opcero at 1st level: fresh: 2 winded: -- weary: -- tired: -- dazed: 1 unconcious 0
Opcero at 7th level fresh: 4 winded: -- weary: 3 tired: 2 dazed: 1 uncon: 0
winded: It takes 2 rounds of rest to recover from being winded. weary: it takes 1 turn to recover from being weary, all ability checks (combat, skills, spell casting are done at a -1 penalty while weary) tired: it takes 3 turns to move from tired to weary (and then 1 further turn to go from weary to winded). All ability checks are at -3 penalty while tired. dazed: it takes 1 hours to move from dazed to tired. All checks are at -5 during this time. unconscious: it takes 2 hours to go from unconscious to dazed.
If a character is still active, recovery times are doubled.
The nine schools of magic Abjuration Alteration Conjuration/Summoning Necromantic Divination Enchantment/Charm Invocation Evocation Illusion/Phantasm
Your spell casting level is based on the highest spell you know from each school. for example 7th level Opcero knows the following spells:
This means that his spell casting level is unique for each school. this determines range, duration of existing known spells as well as his ability to spontaneously cast magic.
Abjuration: 3rd level Alteration: 4th Conjuration/Summoning: 0 Necromantic: 0 Divination: 3rd Enchantment/Charm: 4th Invocation: 0 Evocation: 3rd Illusion/Phantasm: 2nd
Casting Spells The DC to cast a given spell is 10+spell level (fireball has a DC of 13 while burning hands has a DC of 11. A player rolls d20+their casting level for a given school.
Your spell level with a school is equal to the highest level spell you can cast (Opcero knows a 3rd level evocation ( spell so when he casts burning hands he rolls d20+3 vs. DC of 11 to successfuly cast the spell).
failing a roll If he fails, the spell is still cast, but he loses a fatigue level. If you miss by five or more, you lose a fatigue die and the spell fails. A roll of 1 is a botch.
types of spells Spontaneous spells: are improvised spells, usually cantrips until the caster level in a school is 5, then spontaneous spells can be cantrip or 1st level in power. If you use a fatigue level, you may improvise a spell ½ your caster level for the school. For example: Opcero has an illusion level 4. If he uses a fatigue level, he may improvise an illusion spell with a power of roughly a 2nd level spell, otherwise he may only attempt to cast a cantrip.
formulaic spells: spell from the players handbook (levels 1-9) (adjust range to a maximum of sight and duration cannot be longer than 1 month, nor can a spell perceive the past or future)
Ritual spells: may exceed the bounds of formulaic. Take 15 min per spell level to cast and 1 HD of a living creature who is sacrificed or 1000gp per spell level, for magic-user unwilling to use blood magic. Ritual spells always cost 1 fatigue, missing the DC is 2 die and missing by 5 or more points is 2 die and failure. Ritual spells are any spell with a range greater than sight, a duration of more than 1 month or a spell that looks into the past or future.
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Post by sulldawga on Feb 3, 2014 12:14:04 GMT -6
I will introduce here rules on a non-vancian spell casting class. The rules that follow do their best to utilize ideas and rules already in extant (the 9 schools of magic from 1e). Lots of ideas are borrowed from Ars Magica. It looks like a mage's power depends mainly on his knowledge of spells. How do mages gain spells in your system? Am I to understand that, in your fatigue system, if a mage with Fatigue 2 fails a Fatigue roll, they immediately skip Winded, Weary, and Tired, and go right to Dazed?
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Post by cooper on Feb 3, 2014 12:26:14 GMT -6
They could gain spells the same way spells are gained in any D&D game (which has always depended on wether the DM wants to emphasize treasure or research--usually the former).
2nd question. Correct. He would skip right to dazed.
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Post by talysman on Feb 3, 2014 12:37:45 GMT -6
It seems overly complicated. You've got six fatigue states, and you're tracking proficiency in nine areas.
I'd rather keep things as close to known rules as possible, myself. There's no explicit fatigue rules in the book -- well, except for rowing -- but there is this: You have to rest 1 turn out of every 6, and if you are overburdened (Move 3,) you have to rest 2 turns out of every 6. What happens if you don't rest? Not stated, but using just those two facts, I decided that someone who doesn't rest is tired and at half Move, effectively overburdened. I make overburdened or tired characters roll a d6 if they skip rest, and on 5+, they fall over exhausted, unable to move.
If I wanted an exhausting magic system, there are two simple choices: - Roll 1d6 per spell level and check each die rolled individually: a 5+ means character is tired, two results of 5+ means exhausted. - Roll just 1d6: if it's less than or equal to the spell level, character is tired; second "tired" result means exhausted.
I now only need to track one thing: whether a character is rested, tired, or exhausted. If I want to tweak the fatigue rate, I could use the second option with a different die, or perhaps use different dice at different M-U levels, which adds a tiny bit more complication.
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Post by cooper on Feb 3, 2014 17:08:55 GMT -6
In fact it is stated what happens if you don't rest. As with many rules in 0d&d, the details can be found in CHAINMAIL. Depending on how you translate the CHAINMAIL rule (which is where the resting 1 turn every 6 originates). -1 or -2 to attacks, saves and armor class.
I steal from ars magica by making 3 levels really. -1 -3 and -5 penalties. Fresh and unconscious already exist in D&D as well.
Ars magica 4th edition is available as a free download and I recommend anyone unfamiliar with the system to peruse it.
D&D has fresh/-2/unconscious or dead Ars has fresh/-1/-3/-5/unconscious or dead
Edit: I do admit it is fiddly. A simplified system could be:
d20+character level vs. DC of 10+spell level.
So an 8th level wizard rolls d20+8 vs DC 11 to cast a 1st level spell. A failure means fatigued (no more spells until 1 turn spent resting) or, perhaps, no more spells for the day.
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Todd
Level 4 Theurgist
Posts: 111
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Post by Todd on Feb 12, 2014 15:16:04 GMT -6
Has anyone read the on-the-fly spellcasting rules from Barbarians of Lemuria? I really like the sound of them.
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Post by Red Baron on Feb 12, 2014 18:06:30 GMT -6
I like the requirements in that game. The stars are right, place of power, special item.
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Post by bestialwarlust on Feb 12, 2014 18:43:38 GMT -6
Has anyone read the on-the-fly spellcasting rules from Barbarians of Lemuria? I really like the sound of them. how do those work?
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Todd
Level 4 Theurgist
Posts: 111
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Post by Todd on Feb 14, 2014 12:04:17 GMT -6
Has anyone read the on-the-fly spellcasting rules from Barbarians of Lemuria? I really like the sound of them. how do those work? Basically, a wizard can come up with a spell totally on the fly. How strong or pervasive the effect of the spell is intended to be will inform the level of the spell. The levels are divided into four: cantrips, first magnitude, second magnitude, and third magnitude. The level will determine the base cost of the spell (in spell points) and the casting difficulty. The spell point cost can be mitigated through adopting extra requirements (what these are depend on the magnitude of the spell but might include obvious spellcasting technique, consumed items, etc.). Most day to day spells, I imagine, would be of the first magnitude. After that the high costs make them prohibitive for habitual use.
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