Tolkien as Philo-Semite

[kesher]

The Jews of Lord of the Rings

So. Awesome.

[thorswulf]

This had never occurred to me in all the years I have read and re-read Tolkien's works. Clearly another layer of his thinking that has been revealed, and makes his work that much more important.

[kesher]

I simply cannot wait to tell this to my kids (us being Dwarrows) when they're old enough to start reading the Good Professor.

This was good, too:

J.R.R. Tolkien: Not a Jew

[strangebrew]

I think the Jewish folk/Dwarven folk analogy is interesting, but the fact Tolkien's Dwarves had a extreme lust for gold and treasure is unfortunate. Quite probably a negative stereotype thrown in there as well. Was Tolkien racist? I don't think so, in fact he seems rather tolerant and open-minded for his day, and he was a product of his times.

[scottenkainen]

I thought it was even more obvious in the movie, since they kept talking about how the dwarves had no home and were a wandering people...

~Scott "-enkainen" Casper

[kesher]

Oct 16, 2013 11:29:51 GMT -6 strangebrew said:

I think the Jewish folk/Dwarven folk analogy is interesting, but the fact Tolkien's Dwarves had a extreme lust for gold and treasure is unfortunate. Quite probably a negative stereotype thrown in there as well. Was Tolkien racist? I don't think so, in fact he seems rather tolerant and open-minded for his day, and he was a product of his times.

That's a good point; however it does seem likely, given his own words, that was just an unitended collision of folklore and unrelated stereotypes. Also, I think it's less of an analogy than an influence...

[snorri]

I guess there's some kind of relationship between Moria and Mount Moriah, the place of Abraham's sacrifice, too.

[Azafuse]

Well, a unwilling racism is pretty obvious: big beards, big noses, diaspora, gold lust, grudge against nazi/elves.

Anyway, IMHO the philological interest in the Jewish culture is still dominant: Tolkien not only uses a semitic structure for their written/spoken language, but he also uses the number 7 in an almost biblical fashion (7 rings for 7 clans).

[Deleted]

I doubt that it's any truer than the "orcs-representing-blacks/Asians" notion. Whenever you create fictional races, especially highly moralized ones like Tolkien's, they will probably map on to some stereotypes (good and bad) of human races.

[machpants]

Oct 18, 2013 16:46:14 GMT -6 @sirravd said:

I doubt that it's any truer than the "orcs-representing-blacks/Asians" notion. Whenever you create fictional races, especially highly moralized ones like Tolkien's, they will probably map on to some stereotypes (good and bad) of human races.

Yeah Elves being more beautiful, clever, charming and powerful than all other races is a direct link to New Zealanders

[geoffrey]

While I think of dwarves as Germanic, I am more on board with them being quasi-Jewish than being quasi-Scottish. I do not get Scottish dwarves at all.

[Porphyre]

Oct 18, 2013 16:29:37 GMT -6 Azafuse said:

Well, a unwilling racism is pretty obvious: big beards, big noses, diaspora, gold lust,

Deep Inside me, I know I shouldn't fuel that kind of discussion, but I don't actually remember any mention about dwarven noses being big (no more than Elven ears being pointy, anyway...)

[Stormcrow]

Fili is said in The Hobbit to have a long nose. He is the best off of the dwarves when rescued from the spiders' webs, because his nose is the longest, and "some had hardly been able to breathe at all (long noses are sometimes useful you see)." From this I take it that other dwarves did not have long noses.

And, of course, The Hobbit was not a part of Middle-earth when it was written; it was incorporated later.

[cooper]

Zwerg or "dwarf" in German has a long mythology which predates Christianity and ideas of Jewish blood libel and have more to do with Norse mythology and forest spirits.

If anything Jews were portrayed as zwerg rather than zwerg portrayed with Jewish characteristics.

[Deleted]

Oct 18, 2013 16:29:37 GMT -6 Azafuse said:

Well, a unwilling racism is pretty obvious: big beards, big noses, diaspora, gold lust, grudge against nazi/elves.

What makes you identify elves with Nazis?

[bexley]

Pure Aryan skull shape.

[Deleted]

Dolicocephalic elves, eh?

[Deleted]

Oct 16, 2013 11:29:51 GMT -6 strangebrew said:

but the fact Tolkien's Dwarves had a extreme lust for gold and treasure is unfortunate.

Mime.

(The character, not the profession.)

[strangebrew]

Nov 4, 2013 5:38:47 GMT -6 @gronanofsimmerya said:

Oct 16, 2013 11:29:51 GMT -6 strangebrew said:

but the fact Tolkien's Dwarves had a extreme lust for gold and treasure is unfortunate.

Mime.

Are you referring to Mime as being a stereotypical Jew or a stereotypical dwarf? Wagner probably intended the former, but are you suggesting Tolkien assumed the latter? I doubt he was that naive.

[Stormcrow]

Mím was not a stereotypical dwarf; he was a petty-dwarf, an outcast.

[Stormcrow]

Mím was not a stereotypical dwarf; he was a petty-dwarf, an outcast.

[Deleted]

Nov 4, 2013 18:27:27 GMT -6 strangebrew said:

Nov 4, 2013 5:38:47 GMT -6 @gronanofsimmerya said:

Mime.

Are you referring to Mime as being a stereotypical Jew or a stereotypical dwarf? Wagner probably intended the former, but are you suggesting Tolkien assumed the latter? I doubt he was that naive.

I'm referring to Mime being a dwarf who coveted treasure, period. I was never surprised that Tolkien's dwarves coveted treasure; even as a kid back in the late sixties, I had this assumption that that was part of the mythical dwarf. In "The Book of Weird" the author also alludes to it.

Tolkien is not the first person to make the "dwarves covet gold" connection, is my point.

[geoffrey]

Fafnir

[strangebrew]

Nov 5, 2013 16:18:41 GMT -6 @gronanofsimmerya said:

Tolkien is not the first person to make the "dwarves covet gold" connection, is my point.

Point taken. I hereby amend my statement to be "It's unfortunate Tolkien chose to merge aspects of Jewish culture with a mythological archetype that in some ways mirrored ugly stereotypes of Jewish culture."

[Porphyre]

Tolkien merged aspects of hebraic language with a mythical archetype, but that doesn't mean that dwarves are jews: Quenya was modeled on Finn and Sindarin from welsh, but that doesn't mean that elves were finnish nor welshmen...