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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2013 23:51:10 GMT -6
Well... so much for that formatting... let's try this...
...................- Bledsaw -
................../...........\
Arneson --- Gygax ----------- OD&D Crucible
..........\....\............../
...........----- Barker ------
Or to use the campaign names...
.........................- Wilderlands -
......................../...............\
Blackmoor --- Greyhawk ----------- OD&D Crucible
..........\........\..................../
...........--------- Tekumel -----------
Greyhawk subsuming Kuntz's Kalibruhn...
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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2013 23:59:52 GMT -6
Okay, that didn't work so well, either... Here's an old family tree I worked up years ago... not as extensive as this discussion might be, but it had a different focus. Might be useful...  |
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Post by scottenkainen on Aug 8, 2013 7:22:52 GMT -6
That would be pretty exciting if we could build a family tree document like that to show how each significant campaign setting affected the others (that cross-pollination of ideas I was mentioning in my last post). I suspect the relationships between campaign settings are going to be harder to show, either from lack of data or the complexity of the relationships, but I'd love to be wrong.
~Scott "-enkainen" Casper
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Post by snorri on Aug 8, 2013 10:29:08 GMT -6
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Post by Deleted on Aug 8, 2013 19:48:56 GMT -6
Here's where things stand 8/9/2013... First Order Qualifications1) Started with or even before OD&D; 2) Were influential in the development and design of the game system as OD&D developed; 3) Were widespread, with national rather than regional influence. First Order [Original Influences] Blackmoor (Arneson) [St. Paul, MN/International] Greyhawk [incl. Kalibruhn] (Gygax, Kuntz) [Lake Geneva, WI/International] Tekumel (Barker) [Minneapolis, MN/International] Wilderlands (Bledsaw, Owen, Judges Guild) [Decatur, IL/International] Second Order [Secondary and Regional Influences] Holmes Original Campaign (Holmes) [LA, California & Ohio] --- Elements in original Basic Set and influential through Dragon Magazine Known World (Moldvay & Schick) [Ohio/Midwest] --- Included in the 1981 Basic/Expert Series Lendore Isles (Lakofka) [Midwest?] --- Partially subsumed into Greyhawk Arduin (Hargrave) [SF, California] Warlock (Cowan, Et al.) [Pasadena, California] --- Cal Tech Spartan Simulation Gaming Group Zenopus ArticleRythlondar (VanDeGraaf and Scensny) [Michigan/Midwest] Islandia (The Companions) [Northeast] --- Held workshops and seminars at conventions and camps Warden (Ward) [Lake Geneva] --- Branched off into Gamma World; added a "wahoo" science-fantasy feel to subsequent crossover campaigns Third Order [Tertiary and Local Influences] UNKNOWN (Mornard) [Wisconsin/Minnesota] --- Only player and DM to play in all three original campaigns Fred's World (Funk) [Minnesota] --- One of the earliest campaigns, run by one of the original players of Blackmoor Aquaria (Mentzer) [Lake Geneva?] --- Influenced development of BECMI Misty Isles (Wee Warriors) [Midwest?] Glorantha (Stafford) [SF, California] --- Branched off into RuneQuest Trollworld (St. Andre) [Southwest] --- Branched off into Tunnels & Trolls Perilous Lands (Snider) [  ] --- Developed out of Snider's work on the Blackmoor campaign DHS Dungeon (Gygax II) [Lake Geneva] UNKNOWN (Tracy Hickman) [Midwest?] Edwyr (Glenn Blacow) [ ] --- Editor of the TWH UNKNOWN (Peter Aronson) [ ] --- creator of the Illusionist Gorree (Mark Swanson) [ ] --- co editor of TWH UNKNOWN (George Phillies) [ ] Forgotten Realms (Greenwood) [Canada] --- Influenced development of AD&D 2nd Edition |
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Post by aldarron on Aug 8, 2013 20:03:30 GMT -6
First Order, I feel, should be those worlds that: 1) Started with or even before OD&D; 2) Were influential in the development and design of the game system as OD&D developed; 3) Were widespread, with national rather than regional influence. Thus: Blackmoor counts, as it was the original gaming campaign setting, literally the "father" of Greyhawk; Greyhawk counts, as it was the original OD&D setting; Tekumel counts, as the rules development occured with and during and flowed back and forth with OD&D, even if the published rules were not exactly OD&D; just refer to Midkemia Press and Raymond Feist's Magician series to witness its influence. Wilderlands counts, as it and the attendant Judges Guild Journal (which was half Wilderlands, half rules variants) were central to the development of OD&D and especially AD&D (refer to Gary's profuse thanks to Bob in the DMG; many of the tables in the back, and much of the sentiments expressed in the campaign sections, developed out of discussions with Bob and the developments in the Wilderlands and the JGG). All four of the First Tier campaign settings had broad, deep, and national (and international) influence on subsequent campaigns and homebrewed versions of OD&D. There are a number of Second Order campaign settings whose influences were regional or of lesser stature. Kalibruhn itself counts as Second Order because its influence was felt only through its mark on Greyhawk; Arduin counts as perhaps the biggest of the Second Order settings; had there not been so much push-back by Gary against Arduin, and had its influence been broader rather than regional in the day, it would certainly count as First Tier. Glorantha is a second-tier setting, as it was mostly regional and quickly branched off into RuneQuest. "Holmes World," though never published as such, was influential through the flavor provided in the 1st Edition Basic Set (which was an OD&D game), and through Holmes' articles in Dragon; it is Second Order. Trollworld was of regional influence in the Southwest; it might have had greater influence if it had in fact been an OD&D setting, but as it was tied in with an OD&D competitor, its influence on OD&D and OD&D campaigns was lessened; Rythlondar was of regional influence in the Midwest; it also had some additional influence through the people who played in it (including Rick Loomis of Flying Buffalo and the Neiblings who went on to work for TSR and, of course, VanDeGraaf himself, who wrote many influential adventures played in Midwest conventions, and publish his own early products, two of which were combined to form module O1) I hesitate to place the Forgotten Realms in the Third Order of later-day influences; after all, Ed's first articles using the Forgotten Realms were very influential, but were published after the release of AD&D. The setting, of course, was around long before even OD&D, as Ed's home for his fantasy fiction, and then for his OD&D campaign. But the early influence of his campaign setting, if any, was pretty limited to a local area in Canada... What, if any, regional campaigns were influential in the East, I do not know. Perhaps Islandia from the Companions? Similarly, we should include Midkemia in that, though its influence was stronger through its literary arm than its RPG arm, though the RPG material predated Feist's Magician book by some years. I don't want to sound argumentative or like some kind of jerk or something, but I still can't see any consistency in the tiers you and Scott are naming. What I mean is it looks more like a personal list to me of what is most important to you and not something based on a consistent criteria. That's perfectly fine too of course. I mean, for example, demoting Kalibruhn, one of the seminal worlds of D&D created and played in during the playtest phase while claiming Wilderlands as "highly influential" on AD&D seems highly suspect to me. I'd like to know just where that influence is. Certainly there is no influence on the rules of OD&D. There's influence on those who played in wilderlands, sure, and I guess it was a fairly popular product back in the day but is popularity is the measure? Are you trying to say what campaign worlds influenced the most players? Rythlondar was a fairly widely followed setting (pre Supplement I) at a time when Wilderlands was unknown. People subscribed to the fanzine all over the country. <shrug> Later, of course, the situation was reversed. Fred's World was one of many early '70's Blackmoor/Twin Cities spin off campaigns. Fred Funk played King Funk III leader of the orcs in Blackmoor and continued to develope and run his own world until his death. blackmoormystara.blogspot.com/2011/07/fred-funks-world.html Actually, I should also have mentioned Perilous Lands - the world Richard Snider developed. Perilous lands was introduced in the FFC but was extensively developed by Richard in the '80's. There is a huge amount of material for that one. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 8, 2013 20:16:47 GMT -6
The essential question for placing a campaign in one of the three orders is: How strong, widespread, and lasting an influence did the campaign have in subsequent campaign and rules design and development?
The list is a work in progress. One of the things we are trying to determine is what influence did these campaigns have on subsequent designers, developers, publishers, and leading local and regional campaigns...
The current list is always based on what we know thus far.
RE: Kalibruhn, the influence Rob had was indeed perhaps seminal, but how are we to separate out what he did and what Gary did from what eventually became the known and influential Greyhawk? Blackmoor and Greyhawk are obviously separate and distinct, not so the influence (as is widely known) between Gary's Greyhawk and Rob's Kalibruhn.
RE: Wilderlands versus Rythlondar, for example, will be something I tackle later on. I plan to run down a list of the influences of the Wilderlands campaign and related Judges Guild products. The influences are far deeper and stronger than many today realize, not the least of which was that the success of Judges Guild and the Wilderlands was a major factor in what inspired TSR to branch out into campaign publishing in the first place!
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Post by Zenopus on Aug 8, 2013 20:57:39 GMT -6
Here's where things stand nowish... Holmes Original Campaign (Holmes) [Ohio/Midwest] --- Elements in original Basic Set and influential through Dragon Magazine This should be Los Angeles. Holmes was a professor at USC during the 70s, and his gameroom with chalk board table was in the basement of his house in LA. He and his son learned to play in one session with fellows who used the Spartan Warlock Supplement developed at Caltech. LBBs + Greyhawk + Warlock Supplement -> Holmes original campaign -> Holmes Basic Set Some ideas from the West Coast infiltrated back into 'official D&D' in this manner. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2013 18:47:42 GMT -6
Thanks Zenopus! I forgot that... was thinking of him in his later years when he'd settled in Ohio...
I definitely need to add the Spartan Warlock Campaign as well...
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Post by aldarron on Aug 9, 2013 20:23:07 GMT -6
The essential question for placing a campaign in one of the three orders is: How strong, widespread, and lasting an influence did the campaign have in subsequent campaign and rules design and development? "Campaigns" as imagined worlds and "Rules design and Development" are two very separate threads of influence. Both these questions though are like asking "What recipes had the most effect on cookbooks?" It is simply too general. Trends in thought can be traced from antecedents to descendants in many cases but different persons at different places will have different histories of influence, being more inspired by some sources more than others. Gygax and Arneson had different histories and bore different children, as did Barker, etc., and it's important to note that none of these things are occurring in a literary vacuum. Myths, adventures stories, movies and so forth continue to influence campaign worlds. |
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Post by Falconer on Aug 9, 2013 21:03:01 GMT -6
Jeff Grubb had a campaign world called Toricandra, which later became a major source of background material for Krynn (Dragonlance). |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2013 23:12:38 GMT -6
Part of the problem in trying to develop these lists is your/our own personal biases of what influenced our own personal campaign worlds.
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Post by Zenopus on Aug 10, 2013 6:43:55 GMT -6
Thanks Zenopus! I forgot that... was thinking of him in his later years when he'd settled in Ohio... I definitely need to add the Spartan Warlock Campaign as well... Oregon, actually.  He spent his last 20 years in Portland. I don't know much about the actual campaign(s) at CalTech. The 1975 Warlock and the 1978 Complete Warlock have very little setting info. I don't have the last two books. |
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Post by scottenkainen on Aug 10, 2013 7:40:49 GMT -6
Part of the problem in trying to develop these lists is your/our own personal biases of what influenced our own personal campaign worlds. [snipped] After much thought, I'm going to have to agree -- the tier thing is just too subjective to be useful. I'm going to remove it from my master post and just list the campaign worlds together. I even numbered them so you could use it as a random campaign world generator... I'm also taking the Dungeon Hobby Shop world off my list because just saying your dungeon is in its own world isn't enough if you don't have any details worked out on that outside world. But I also want to add to the discussion the campaign setting from the Divine Right board game -- not D&D, but easily usable with D&D (or even combined with Greyhawk as western Oerik). Scott "-enkainen" Casper |
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Post by aldarron on Aug 10, 2013 9:21:51 GMT -6
Part of the problem in trying to develop these lists is your/our own personal biases of what influenced our own personal campaign worlds. [snipped] After much thought, I'm going to have to agree -- the tier thing is just too subjective to be useful. I'm going to remove it from my master post and just list the campaign worlds together. I even numbered them so you could use it as a random campaign world generator... I'm also taking the Dungeon Hobby Shop world off my list because just saying your dungeon is in its own world isn't enough if you don't have any details worked out on that outside world. But I also want to add to the discussion the campaign setting from the Divine Right board game -- not D&D, but easily usable with D&D (or even combined with Greyhawk as western Oerik). Scott "-enkainen" Casper Prolly you should move the list to the first post so its easier to find. Echoing Gronan, is "published" the criterion for inclusion? Sniders Perilous Lands is certainly published. Perilous LandsThough no longer D&D in its Avalon Hill form, it began as a D&D campaign and is briefly detailed as such in the FFC. Fred's World, on the other hand was mentioned here and there but wasn't ever published properly. However, the game manuals, maps and materials have recently been made available by its players as pdfs. Another possibility to mention might be Tracy and Laura Hickman's game world. I don't know if it had a proper name, but they did self publish Ravenloft and Pharoah as adventures from their campaign in the late '70's. <shrug> |
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Post by Falconer on Aug 10, 2013 9:54:05 GMT -6
My impression is that the Hickmans basically went right to publishing without ever really taking time to run a home campaign. Their early modules — Pharaoh, Rahasia, Eye of the Dragon (unpublished proto-Dragonlance), and Vampyr (unpublished proto-Ravenloft) — are each set in a completely different genre, that I’m not sure you could splice into a “world”. Finally, I asked Tracy if he started with OD&D, and he said, no, it was AD&D from day one.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2013 18:13:01 GMT -6
Fred's World, on the other hand was mentioned here and there but wasn't ever published properly. However, the game manuals, maps and materials have recently been made available by its players as pdfs. Is there a link available for this? |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2013 18:14:40 GMT -6
The 1975 Warlock and the 1978 Complete Warlock have very little setting info. I don't have the last two books. Is the 1975 Warlock available anywhere. Also interested in later materials but especially the 1975 stuff. |
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Post by Zenopus on Aug 10, 2013 22:07:35 GMT -6
There's no digital version as far as I know. The 1975 version was published in Spartan Simulation Gaming Journal #9 (August), pages 4-37. You can see the cover here: WarlockI bought my copy from Noble Knight a few years back. It shows up on Ebay a few times a year, selling for $30-60, depending on how many bidders are interested at the time. |
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Post by Hans E Magnusson on Aug 11, 2013 3:09:25 GMT -6
Maybe Magnamund
From Wikipedia
"Dever developed the world of Magnamund from 1975 to 1983 as a setting for his Dungeons and Dragons campaigns. Originally called "Chinaraux", the world consisted of only northern Magnamund.[8]"
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Post by Hawklord on Aug 11, 2013 9:38:18 GMT -6
But this campaign world never had a name that we know it was called? What should we call it? Holmesworld? The World of Boinger? That's a good question. I almost suggested "Holmes World" as well, though to me it doesn't feel quite right. I'd probably go with "Holmes' Original Campaign" or something like that. "World" implies a fully realized setting like Tekumel. In his "Confessions of Dungeon Master" article (1980) he mentions "I have never mapped more than a small patch of my dream world ... What I have done, and what most DM's have done, is use the imaginative creations of my favorite authors to map my worlds". As you know, Holmes' story "Maze of Peril" is set in "Caladan," the name of the kingdom/country or the city where most of the story takes place. Much like Gygax's "World of Greyhawk," Holmes' world could be called the "World of Caladan." There is a reference to "the known world" in "The Sorcerer's Jewel" when describing Boinger's childhood love of maps. As far as I know, that is the only reference to Holmes' campaign world as a whole. |
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Post by aldarron on Aug 12, 2013 5:49:42 GMT -6
Fred's World, on the other hand was mentioned here and there but wasn't ever published properly. However, the game manuals, maps and materials have recently been made available by its players as pdfs. Is there a link available for this? Well, the link I posted earlier, and also the "memories of Fred Funk" thread in the same forum, has lots of maps, artwork, character sheets and stuff like that linked, but what I had forgotten was that the players manual was only being shared internally while a final comprehensive free campaign guide was being prepared. Its been a long time since anyone has heard news of that project, so some follow ups are in order and maybe I can get permission to release it. Here's a link to a news article about the campaign FW article |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2013 15:28:45 GMT -6
Misty Isles, as in Hal Foster's "Prince Valiant"? Not too far fetched to make that connection, given how popular the strip was. (And still is.)
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2013 15:41:50 GMT -6
Whoops, got pushed forward one page. Still, this being like this.  Also, guys, are you aware that three months from now, we all will be holding the OD&D deluxe editions in our hands?! I am already planning my game. My German roleplayers freak OUT over the prospect of doing White Box D&D, even with "just" the re-release. |
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tec97
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Post by tec97 on Aug 12, 2013 17:29:37 GMT -6
Whoops, got pushed forward one page. Still, this being like this. Also, guys, are you aware that three months from now, we all will be holding the OD&D deluxe editions in our hands?! I am already planning my game. My German roleplayers freak OUT over the prospect of doing White Box D&D, even with "just" the re-release. Interesting! I think I'll buy a copy in Oregon, thus dodging the 10% Washington sales tax! |
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Post by Zenopus on Aug 12, 2013 20:28:30 GMT -6
As you know, Holmes' story "Maze of Peril" is set in "Caladan," the name of the kingdom/country or the city where most of the story takes place. Much like Gygax's "World of Greyhawk," Holmes' world could be called the "World of Caladan." There is a reference to "the known world" in "The Sorcerer's Jewel" when describing Boinger's childhood love of maps. As far as I know, that is the only reference to Holmes' campaign world as a whole. That's a good suggestion. Since we are talking original D&D, I hesitated to suggest anything from the later Boinger & Zereth stories since we don't know how much was used by Holmes in the early years vs invented later. For instance, the "Wereshark" portion of Maze of Peril is significantly expanded from the original session story in A&E. So I'm not sure if "Caladan" was a name used in the original campaign. Could also cause confusion with Herbert's planet Caladan. Still, probably the best we've got. |
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Post by bexley on Aug 13, 2013 8:34:39 GMT -6
I don't want to sound argumentative or like some kind of jerk or something, but I still can't see any consistency in the tiers you and Scott are naming. What I mean is it looks more like a personal list to me of what is most important to you and not something based on a consistent criteria. That's perfectly fine too of course. I mean, for example, demoting Kalibruhn, one of the seminal worlds of D&D created and played in during the playtest phase while claiming Wilderlands as "highly influential" on AD&D seems highly suspect to me. I'd like to know just where that influence is. Certainly there is no influence on the rules of OD&D. There's influence on those who played in wilderlands, sure, and I guess it was a fairly popular product back in the day but is popularity is the measure? Are you trying to say what campaign worlds influenced the most players? Rythlondar was a fairly widely followed setting (pre Supplement I) at a time when Wilderlands was unknown. People subscribed to the fanzine all over the country. <shrug> Later, of course, the situation was reversed. Fred's World was one of many early '70's Blackmoor/Twin Cities spin off campaigns. Fred Funk played King Funk III leader of the orcs in Blackmoor and continued to develope and run his own world until his death. blackmoormystara.blogspot.com/2011/07/fred-funks-world.html Actually, I should also have mentioned Perilous Lands - the world Richard Snider developed. Perilous lands was introduced in the FFC but was extensively developed by Richard in the '80's. There is a huge amount of material for that one. Fred's World seems eerily similar to my world in a lot of ways. I was wondering, do you know if Cecil was used in place of ships? I think I would become obsessed with the finer details if he was. |
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tec97
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Post by tec97 on Aug 13, 2013 9:19:23 GMT -6
Any thoughts on The Iron Wind as an OD&D world? I know this was published in 1980, but it's development should have put it originally as an OD&D or Holmes-era world. I remember the Dragon ads for it pitched as a non-system specific fantasy world...
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Post by Falconer on Aug 13, 2013 11:25:11 GMT -6
Pete Fenlon did have a six-year campaign throughout the 70s. The world was definitely Middle-earth, though. Of course, it was “his” Middle-earth, so there may be a case for listing it as a special case. (But are we cataloging all known home campaigns, or what?) Certainly many details of his world became published, as well as, obviously, his house rules. The Iron Wind is a VERY interesting case. I just this past week got a copy of the first edition. I had often heard that it is generic, and it certainly is not heavy on stats, but where there are stats it clearly uses AD&D + Arms Law. There is no suggestion of it being set in Middle-earth, but it shares much in common with the Middle-earth modules — the herbs and poisons tables, for example, and the presence of “Umli” (a half-dwarves race that features in both MERP and the later Shadow World). Supposedly, this module was indeed set in northeastern Middle-earth in the home campaign.
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tec97
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Post by tec97 on Aug 13, 2013 14:51:06 GMT -6
That's what I'd more-or-less heard. Actually I think it was that they'd been playing a campaign set in Greyhawk, but wanted a more Middle-Earth feel, without it being exactly Middle-Earth. I think The Iron Wind, should properly be included in a definitive list of OD&D campaign worlds, as this was its roots, and it was arguably as well as, or better known nationally than Blackmoor.
edit: I also have a 1st print copy of The Iron Wind - got mine several years ago, but it's a pretty interesting read, especially as compared with Greyhawk, FFC, and the Wilderlands in terms of the different presentation approach.
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] --- Developed out of Snider's work on the Blackmoor campaign
He spent his last 20 years in Portland. 
