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Post by Finarvyn on Sept 26, 2020 4:36:57 GMT -6
I'm glad that folks still like it. Hard to believe how many years it's been since I worked on the original project.
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Post by hamurai on Sept 26, 2020 10:32:09 GMT -6
Still one of my favourite OSR books, along with WB FMAG.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2020 16:55:03 GMT -6
I'm glad that folks still like it. Hard to believe how many years it's been since I worked on the original project. I'm here because of you. I'm gonna be running more games with White box very soon and making at least one celebratory thread on the osr subreddit about its influence on me personally and on the osr. I feel like they're due a reminder. A lot of younger/newer participants are being taught that OSE is the alpha and omega of clones. It's a beautiful thing in its own right but they need to know their history.
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Post by Finarvyn on Sept 26, 2020 17:34:34 GMT -6
I'm glad that folks still like it. Hard to believe how many years it's been since I worked on the original project. I'm here because of you. I'm gonna be running more games with White box very soon and making at least one celebratory thread on the osr subreddit about its influence on me personally and on the osr. I feel like they're due a reminder. A lot of younger/newer participants are being taught that OSE is the alpha and omega of clones. It's a beautiful thing in its own right but they need to know their history. I appreciate the compliment, but it's hard for me to imagine that I have inspired anyone in the world of gaming. I feel honored if I have done so. I've had similar instances in my classroom, where sometimes a student will say something like, "you inspired me to be a physics major," or, "your class showed me that I could compete with the other smart kids," or stuff like that. I think that in life if you enjoy something then that enthusiasm tends to spill out whether you intend for it to happen or not. I enjoy teaching and I guess some of my students enjoy my class because of my enthusiasm, even if they aren't thrilled with the actual subject. OD&D is an awesome game, and I'm glad that some folks might have discovered the game or this board because of something I might have written somewhere.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2020 17:47:44 GMT -6
I'm here because of you. I'm gonna be running more games with White box very soon and making at least one celebratory thread on the osr subreddit about its influence on me personally and on the osr. I feel like they're due a reminder. A lot of younger/newer participants are being taught that OSE is the alpha and omega of clones. It's a beautiful thing in its own right but they need to know their history. I appreciate the compliment, but it's hard for me to imagine that I have inspired anyone in the world of gaming. I feel honored if I have done so. I've had similar instances in my classroom, where sometimes a student will say something like, "you inspired me to be a physics major," or, "your class showed me that I could compete with the other smart kids," or stuff like that. I think that in life if you enjoy something then that enthusiasm tends to spill out whether you intend for it to happen or not. I enjoy teaching and I guess some of my students enjoy my class because of my enthusiasm, even if they aren't thrilled with the actual subject. OD&D is an awesome game, and I'm glad that some folks might have discovered the game or this board because of something I might have written somewhere. Don't sell yourself short, my friend. OD&D is an awesome game, but it's a game I'd have never had a chance to play and explore unless S&W Whitebox existed. I found the idea of acquiring the "real thing" daunting. The only way at the time I could have done that was the 2013 re-release of OD&D by Wizards of the Coast in that expensive wooden box. I passed on that because of the price and because of the sense of dread I felt in having to decipher what I'd only heard described as unintuitive and labyrinthian rules. When I found out about S&W Whitebox and how it was a distilled and simple to use little pamphlet, I was finally confident enough to taste OD&D of a sort. I saw what the OSR was and what it could be, and a big part of that is honoring the obscure and nearly forgotten past of gaming by making it present, simple and accessible. I own many OSR books. I've ran yours more than any other. I've ran 32 sessions with your book. Some of my favorite ones over the past decade. While that particular group no longer regularly convenes, our experiences with the Whitebox paradigm have informed all our gaming projects in the years that have followed. So. maybe or maybe not for a wide audience, but for me and three friends of mine, WB is what we think of when someone says "OSR". I guess deeply positively affecting four people means something, right?
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Merias
Level 4 Theurgist
Posts: 104
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Post by Merias on Sept 26, 2020 20:03:19 GMT -6
Love to see this bumped yet again. All these years later and WB is still my go-to. Straight out of the book or modded to hell. These days I generally use WB as the base and then add what I want from GH,EW,BM,and some Third party materials I have a BHP color softcover with the dragon on it. I really want a hardcopy of the Mullen cover but in original or second printing text, not whatever the last print version Finch did. I don't think a WB 1st print hardcover was ever officially available. I recently ordered a custom one using the 1st print PDF via Lulu, it came out pretty decent.
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Post by hamurai on Sept 26, 2020 23:20:45 GMT -6
Are there so many differences between the printings? I've had a look at the PDF versions some time ago and skimming the first chapters it seemed it's mostly the layout and art that changed?
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Merias
Level 4 Theurgist
Posts: 104
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Post by Merias on Sept 27, 2020 6:56:37 GMT -6
Are there so many differences between the printings? I've had a look at the PDF versions some time ago and skimming the first chapters it seemed it's mostly the layout and art that changed? There were errata fixed with the 2nd and 3rd (Brave Halfling) prints, although I've never seen a list, the big ones I can think of were fixing movement rates, missile weapon range bonuses/penalties, and the cost of meatshields vs. torchbearers (swapped in the 1st print). There were a few bits lost also - in the 1st print the classes have wonderfully imaginative descriptions, those were taken out for the Fighter and MU in the 2nd and subsequent prints. The note in the 1st print weapons table about spears and polearms being able to attack from the 2nd rank and the BHB in the class advancement charts are gone in 2nd and future printings. In the 1st print the use of AAC was assumed, even though DAC was mentioned there are no DAC attack tables, those were added in later printings.
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Post by Punkrabbitt on Sept 27, 2020 12:38:27 GMT -6
White Box led me back to OD&D. The last actual tabletop RPG I ran was S&W White Box, for my kids back in 2015. My older was having some identity problems and stopped playing, and the little one segued to playing with her friends at school until we lost her in 2016. Since then, this forum has enhanced my interest in minimalist ISR gaming and I am firmly back in OD&T territory if I ever have the chance to run a game again.
Sadly, it seems most players want 5th edition. And 5th edition has SO MUCH third party expansion material, it is really possible to play just about anything with it. But here I sit, stuck on OD&D...
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Post by Paladin on Sept 27, 2020 14:51:55 GMT -6
I still play it weekly.
It's the only thing I use besides the 3LBB's and Delving Deeper on occasion. It's just perfect.
Clean, clear, easy to add or remove features. Flexible. Hands down, my favorite ruleset ever written.
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Post by machfront on Sept 27, 2020 18:39:23 GMT -6
Love to see this bumped yet again. All these years later and WB is still my go-to. Straight out of the book or modded to hell. These days I generally use WB as the base and then add what I want from GH,EW,BM,and some Third party materials I have a BHP color softcover with the dragon on it. I really want a hardcopy of the Mullen cover but in original or second printing text, not whatever the last print version Finch did. I don't think a WB 1st print hardcover was ever officially available. I recently ordered a custom one using the 1st print PDF via Lulu, it came out pretty decent. You’re correct. There was not. One small publisher who used Lulu told me over ten years ago (wow...has it been that long? Sheesh.) that it was difficult for a hardback to turn out well if the page count was under around about 80 pages. Honestly, I think the first printing of WB would have worked better had it been saddle-stitched and not perfect bound. The problem with the current official SWWB (well, the cover anyway) is that Mullen’s painting was created in a ratio for a 8.5”x11” book, so when Matt later repurposed it for the 6x9 he had a choice or either the ugly grey borders at top or bottom or to crop or change Mullen’s already-existing cover. He was unwilling to change it, and even resisted my suggestion to look into changing the color of the border area to white...so... I think what jeffb was saying was it would be nice to have a proper iteration of the Mullen art from the first, in digest hardback, but with the later corrected text, and formatted in the manner verhaden did for the second and BHP third printings were. (Needed more art, I think, but Jesse really made those versions look so nice and clean.)
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Post by machfront on Sept 27, 2020 19:15:53 GMT -6
Unfortunately this is missing my first print, BHP second prints and other copy of my BHP third print, as they’re in storage. Oh! And also missing my BHP WB boxed set. Oops. I have that here. Oh, well. So, yeah...this isn’t everything. Heheh So that would be....16 copies/editions/iterations of WB I have. .....wow. lol
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Post by machfront on Sept 27, 2020 19:19:05 GMT -6
This is weird. Never even noticed before. Both are the recent soft covers. Amazon (or maybe DriveThruRPG) version on the left, Lulu on the right. Huh
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Post by machfront on Sept 27, 2020 19:23:44 GMT -6
And another... Lulu dust cover hard back on the left. DriveThruRPG hard cover on the right. DriveThruRPG hb is both smaller in both height and width. Weird
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edkann
Level 2 Seer
Cartography Wizard
Posts: 29
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Post by edkann on Sept 27, 2020 19:29:57 GMT -6
WB was good stuff. Played it for a good couple of years. Got reinterested in B/X and realized it is my favorite OD&D version. I know everyone has their favorites. I have really enjoyed the Old School Essentials books which are basically B/X. I have used the heck out of the OSE books over the course of the last year or so.
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Post by machfront on Sept 27, 2020 22:37:31 GMT -6
Oh. I meant to touch on S&W:WB’s errata.
I cannot speak to errata from first to second print, but I was deeply involved in BHPs third print (that is to say, errata from the second printing of course). I was not the only one. I can say...there was quite a lot, but most were tiny things. The lists on the then S&W forum and BHP forum were pretty long. Misspellings or improving grammar. Page references. ‘Artifacts’ left from S&W Core that didn’t work or didn’t make sense in the context of WB. Also, often there were places wherein there were too many ‘cut and paste’ descriptions and sentences structures. I pled for at least switching words about or otherwise changing things up because it seemed far too dry and boring for the mind to read and grab hold of. I’m not sure if I’m being clear. Let’s say one class description might say “the cleric may not used edged weapons” , the fighter’s might say “the fighter can use any weapon”. Okay. Not exactly or really, but I think you get what I’m attempting to convey. Suffice it to say...it seemed like a computer wrote the text in too too many spots.
There were some contradictions between text and tables, sometimes. Also a few things it made more sense to use as is (as was?) from the original 3LBBs (as myself and others were also referencing during the time). Movement stuff was a thing that had to be looked at as I recall, though I don’t recall why.... maybe the “two moves” thing from OD&D?
Honestly, overall it was minor. It’s not as though it would have thrown the table into upheaval were the ref using one printing and the players using another. 🙂
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Post by Finarvyn on Sept 28, 2020 5:08:15 GMT -6
Unfortunately this is missing my first print, BHP second prints and other copy of my BHP third print, as they’re in storage. Oh! And also missing my BHP WB boxed set. Oops. I have that here. Oh, well. So, yeah...this isn’t everything. Heheh So that would be....16 copies/editions/iterations of WB I have. .....wow. lol Wow. You have significantly more copies than I have! I have a 1st printing softback (which I had to acquire after the fact, never got one officially) and a couple of the 2nd print boxed sets and a 2nd print hardback and one or two of the FMAG editions.
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Post by jeffb on Sept 28, 2020 7:02:16 GMT -6
Love to see this bumped yet again. All these years later and WB is still my go-to. Straight out of the book or modded to hell. These days I generally use WB as the base and then add what I want from GH,EW,BM,and some Third party materials I have a BHP color softcover with the dragon on it. I really want a hardcopy of the Mullen cover but in original or second printing text, not whatever the last print version Finch did. I don't think a WB 1st print hardcover was ever officially available. I recently ordered a custom one using the 1st print PDF via Lulu, it came out pretty decent. I was aware that there wasn't a hardcover for WB, I was just making my Xmas wish- I'd want a Hardcopy of the Mullen cover with 1st/2nd print text. Charlie(?) did a great job on FMAG, but I'm not into Finch's last revision at all.
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Post by tacojohn4547 on Sept 28, 2020 16:36:03 GMT -6
Unfortunately this is missing my first print, BHP second prints and other copy of my BHP third print, as they’re in storage. Oh! And also missing my BHP WB boxed set. Oops. I have that here. Oh, well. So, yeah...this isn’t everything. Heheh So that would be....16 copies/editions/iterations of WB I have. .....wow. lol THAT is inspirational, man!!
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Post by verhaden on Sept 29, 2020 16:21:46 GMT -6
I still have all of the design files, art, and emails from Fin and Matt. Have to say that the 3rd BHP edition was so "lite" was that John asked me to keep the overall page count down (which is also why the page numbering is awkward on a few releases as he deleted blank pages that made chapter's begin on the right page). I've been criticized for a certain design blandness, but I was also trying to design something that a) people could easily print on home printers without using up all their ink, and b) readable/legible for older gamers.
It would be tempting to put together an updated version, as I've had a great deal more professional design/work experience, but I'm not touching that with a 10 ft. pole unless all parties signed off. And it would probably hamper the WB FMAG edition.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2020 17:56:18 GMT -6
Here's my copy. "Old reliable". Gets the job done. Gonna be running a dungeon-centric campaign with it soon!
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Post by tacojohn4547 on Nov 11, 2020 21:20:08 GMT -6
While I was working up the ‘missing’ Swords & Wizardry: Core Rules printings from my stash, I also filled out my run of Swords and Wizardry: White Box printings. (Left to right) Original D&D Single Volume Edition hardback with custom Frazetta cover, reprint of the S&W: White Box first printing hardback, reproduction S&W: White Box 2nd printing hardback, reproduction S&W: White Box 3rd printing hardback, reproduction S&W: White Box 3rd printing hardback with custom Roslof cover, custom reproduction S&W: White Box 3rd printing softcover*, printed for ScoutCon 2020, and S&W White Box 4th printing hardback. Missing from the pic are the S&W: White Box boxed sets and the White Box: FMAG printings. * We’re a sponsor for a council-level event called ScoutCon, which joins Scouting and table top gaming for a fun weekend of camping and gaming each November. This year, we included a full print copy of the S&W:WB 3rd printing softcovers in every attendee and volunteer swag bag. photos.app.goo.gl/vsPzCjuhkZi5penaA
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Post by tombowings on Nov 12, 2020 7:21:32 GMT -6
I still have all of the design files, art, and emails from Fin and Matt. Have to say that the 3rd BHP edition was so "lite" was that John asked me to keep the overall page count down (which is also why the page numbering is awkward on a few releases as he deleted blank pages that made chapter's begin on the right page). I've been criticized for a certain design blandness, but I was also trying to design something that a) people could easily print on home printers without using up all their ink, and b) readable/legible for older gamers. It would be tempting to put together an updated version, as I've had a great deal more professional design/work experience, but I'm not touching that with a 10 ft. pole unless all parties signed off. And it would probably hamper the WB FMAG edition. I love the minimalist design. I want to see more projects and fewer products.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2020 15:57:07 GMT -6
I still have all of the design files, art, and emails from Fin and Matt. Have to say that the 3rd BHP edition was so "lite" was that John asked me to keep the overall page count down (which is also why the page numbering is awkward on a few releases as he deleted blank pages that made chapter's begin on the right page). I've been criticized for a certain design blandness, but I was also trying to design something that a) people could easily print on home printers without using up all their ink, and b) readable/legible for older gamers. It would be tempting to put together an updated version, as I've had a great deal more professional design/work experience, but I'm not touching that with a 10 ft. pole unless all parties signed off. And it would probably hamper the WB FMAG edition. I love the minimalist design. I want to see more projects and fewer products. I agree. We all already own more than enough rules for the rest of our lives. That's why I'm not buying more rpg books per se, but borrowing things I like from blogs and discussions instead.
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Post by multiarms on May 25, 2021 14:12:30 GMT -6
I use it. I love White Box FMAG. It is my favorite single-volume RPG book. I have bought about 25 copies from Amazon to give to people and run quick little dungeon sessions of 1-2 hours.
I like the innovative changes like AAC, single save, and the treasure calculation method.
I have always wondered why the monster listing don't include "number appearing". It is the only thing which frustrates me since I have to reach for some other source unless I want to just make it up on the spot.
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Post by waysoftheearth on May 25, 2021 18:22:55 GMT -6
I have always wondered why the monster listing don't include "number appearing". It is the only thing which frustrates me since I have to reach for some other source unless I want to just make it up on the spot. I'm not a WB guru by any means. However, the 3LBBs approach is that numbers of monsters appearing underground is determined by the monster type, dungeon level, and number of players (U&WA pp 11-12). Numbers appearing in the wilderness are less specific in the 3LBBs but Arneson's method has 10-60% of the total lair population out in the wilderness at any time, in groups of various sizes (FFC p 25). FWIW, the "number appearing" column in M&T (pp 3-4) is notionally the number of monsters at a wilderness lair; particularly for the man-like types. It can be increased or decreased relative to the player group in any case (M&T p4 footnotes).
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Post by Finarvyn on May 26, 2021 5:09:59 GMT -6
Honestly, I left "number appearing" off for pretty much the reasons that waysoftheearth stated. I never found the number useful and figured that if you had monster stats you could just roll something at random to decide how many were there. In other words, encountering 3-300 orcs in a dungeon room seemed absurd. If I was running a dungeon I might pick up 2d6 or something to see how many were in the room.
I probably should have explained that in the WB rules.
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Post by jeffb on May 26, 2021 5:31:33 GMT -6
I can't say I ever paid much attention to the "number Appearing" guidelines. I just used however many I wanted/needed.
Such a stat could become useful to me if it's to help measure relative encounter strength, but that's about it.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2021 11:46:24 GMT -6
I use "number appearing" for generating overland populations of creatures and demihumans ahead of time. (Is this hex housing a small Hobgoblin expedition force or their main stronghold?)
I just penciled them in my copy of the book from OD&D. It wasn't a necessary change but it's a thing I personally use and simple enough to borrow from elsewhere.
Great thing about starting with a very simple framework is that it's easier to add than to subtract from a behemoth like AD&D.
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Post by distortedhumor on Oct 14, 2021 10:26:37 GMT -6
I use WB (and WB FMAG) a lot since it good to have a simple easy to obtain rulebook when I run or play. It also doesn't scare new players to OD&D like LBBs do.
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